Assault Grenadiers OP unit

[FrankStain]

Ok, I thought some people were overreacting about new commanders and how p2w this game has become.
Today I realized they were right. Assault Grenadiers (Mechanized Assault Doctrine) are so ♥♥♥♥in OP. They can easily ♥♥♥♥ all your conscripts and also throw 2 grenades at the same time. This is ridiculous...

[禮安]

引用自 manimanco2：

Lol dude, the problem with what you are saying is that soviet units are the same price or cost more but aren't any cheaper.

ex: IS-2 (760/240) costs more manpower and gas than the tiger (720/200) and is less powerful; for the same manpower, elephant (260) is cheaper in gas than ISU 152 (290) and is better in every way; SU-85 = same panzer IV, but with good micro panzer IV wins every time; panzer grenadier cost the same as guards rifle but are arguably better and you don't need a special doctrine to build these. Combat pioneer cost 200 and soviet engineers cost 240. Germans have better mgs for same price; as german, you start with panzerfaust and gungrenades are automaticly given when teching toward tier 2 + teching globally cost less for german. panzerwerfer have a better attack than ketyusha for the same price and are tougher. Germans can build freaking bunkers and reenforce their squads on the spot by two means as soviet can only do it later. Need more examples?

Btw, I play both side and even if I play a lot less german, I almost never lose as them.
german = between 80 and 90% winrate
soviet = between 60 and 70% winrate

IS-2's cost to efficiency rate is a problem and that deserves a new thread if you want to argue about it.

SU-85 VS Panzer IV,you already said it yourself, good micro'ing, same goes for all Soviet armor. T-34 costs 280 MP and 85 Fuel, a StuG costs 280 MP and 95 Fuel.

There are lots of Soviet armor that are cheaper than their German counterparts,just because the point is to use numbers to overwhelm the enemy, you can use a single T-34 to counter Panzer IVs,but you're going to need support from other units like a Conscript squad or a AT gun. Otherwise the optimal thing is to use 2 T-34s.

Panzerwerfer has a better attack than the Katyusha? Oh please,it fires more salvos per barrage and it covers a wider area than the Panzerwerfer. As for the Pioneer VS Combat Engineer cost, I agree that Combat Engineers need to be 200 MP,same as the Pioneers.

And,better MGs? Really? A very interesting thing to consider is the field of fire the Maxim gets when it's garrisoned inside a building. It gets the same wide field of fire the MG42 does, and let's not forgot it's faster to pack up and redeploy. Both MGs have their own pros and cons.

And really,the point of having Conscripts needing to be upgraded is to stop them from overwhelming the German defenses too quickly into the game. One thing I'll agree with is to nerf the MG42 LMG upgrade to Tier 1. Instead of giving it out early.

As for the bunkers,if you haven't gathered it yet the Germans are supposed to put up a defensive line,for the Soviets to smash through. That's the point of the game, Germans are a more early defense,late counterattack type of faction. While the Soviets are basically the Panzer Elite from COH, offense oriented with limited defense options.

Overall the use of Soviets is to use their numbers to overwhelm the enemy. Either that or you pull off a ton of strategies and tactics.

[Joikax]

use their numbers... the way the game is set up doesnt allow, nor it ever did, soviets to make use of numbers, simply because both factions can bring out their units roughly at the same time. Its a game of turns taking out counters to each unit 1 by 1. Oh, by numbers you mean squad members? well then yes we do have more numbers, but that doesnt mean everything. It doesnt mean anything actually.

[禮安]

引用自 Joikax：

use their numbers... the way the game is set up doesnt allow, nor it ever did, soviets to make use of numbers, simply because both factions can bring out their units roughly at the same time. Its a game of turns taking out counters to each unit 1 by 1. Oh, by numbers you mean squad members? well then yes we do have more numbers, but that doesnt mean everything. It doesnt mean anything actually.

Actually no, the game gives the Soviets combat infantry out of the bat for a reason,and as much as you think squad members mean nothing,it does for the Soviets. Overall there are things to be fixed for the Soviets, some units need to be slightly cheaper.

The game also gives Soviets cheaper tanks for a reason.

[Joikax]

引用自 Wendelin：

引用自 Joikax：

use their numbers... the way the game is set up doesnt allow, nor it ever did, soviets to make use of numbers, simply because both factions can bring out their units roughly at the same time. Its a game of turns taking out counters to each unit 1 by 1. Oh, by numbers you mean squad members? well then yes we do have more numbers, but that doesnt mean everything. It doesnt mean anything actually.

Actually no, the game gives the Soviets combat infantry out of the bat for a reason,and as much as you think squad members mean nothing,it does for the Soviets. Overall there are things to be fixed for the Soviets, some units need to be slightly cheaper.

The game also gives Soviets cheaper tanks for a reason.

I am not yelling at the tanks. Tanks are (at least the main ones we can bring out) okay. (Doctrinals need tweaking, all of them)



As for numbers... I have brought out this example a thousand times and I will say it again (gosh why do I keep doing this? I must be stupid):

A soviet squad that has no outstanding abilities for the situation he is in and is forced to fight normally will often lose to german forces.

Now, as for the numbers part... soviet infantry is quite weak and worse compared to the germans. imagine having a vet3 grenadier retreating... it would take ages to bring down.
Now think about a conscript vet 3... hmm he goes down quite easily still compared to the gren.


Grens get 4 man squads, but they are tough, and perform admirably in combat with high accuracy and damage output.

Conscripts just suck in general, and they die easily because of the numbers thing which makes them get less hp and less dps per man.

So it is easy to reduce any soviet infantry squad to a point where its effectiveness is no longer good to keep fighting. (unless you want to give out free exp to the german squads that is)

An example of this is the fact that I often see (and I myself do it) people retreat squads still with 3 men. its not because they are losing an engagement. Its more because they simply stopped having enough dps and durability to stay in the fight/field without getting their asses wooped without doing anything.

(these examples are all countered IF you go for abilities. In that case even a 1 man squad can do A LOT.)

[禮安]

引用自 Joikax：

I am not yelling at the tanks. Tanks are (at least the main ones we can bring out) okay. (Doctrinals need tweaking, all of them)



As for numbers... I have brought out this example a thousand times and I will say it again (gosh why do I keep doing this? I must be stupid):

A soviet squad that has no outstanding abilities for the situation he is in and is forced to fight normally will often lose to german forces.

Now, as for the numbers part... soviet infantry is quite weak and worse compared to the germans. imagine having a vet3 grenadier retreating... it would take ages to bring down.
Now think about a conscript vet 3... hmm he goes down quite easily still compared to the gren.


Grens get 4 man squads, but they are tough, and perform admirably in combat with high accuracy and damage output.

Conscripts just suck in general, and they die easily because of the numbers thing which makes them get less hp and less dps per man.

So it is easy to reduce any soviet infantry squad to a point where its effectiveness is no longer good to keep fighting. (unless you want to give out free exp to the german squads that is)

An example of this is the fact that I often see (and I myself do it) people retreat squads still with 3 men. its not because they are losing an engagement. Its more because they simply stopped having enough dps and durability to stay in the fight/field without getting their asses wooped without doing anything.

(these examples are all countered IF you go for abilities. In that case even a 1 man squad can do A LOT.)

You're supposed to use multiple conscript squads,not a single squad.But then again a single squad will do the trick if you do it right. As in use cover/ abilities.

For me,2 squads will do the trick. And no,Vet 3 Conscripts are more durable,they don't go down that easily. But it depends on what's attacking them most of the time. Vet 3 Grenadiers still get nailed by T-34s,T-70s,grenades and so on. Remember that they aren't invincible.

引用自 Joikax：

An example of this is the fact that I often see (and I myself do it) people retreat squads still with 3 men. its not because they are losing an engagement. Its more because they simply stopped having enough dps and durability to stay in the fight/field without getting their asses wooped without doing anything.

If you've bothered to use cover and flanking, Soviet infantry, and any infantry in general do the job well.

[Aristotle Full Throttle]

For correction the Stug III Ausf. G is 280 manpower 95 fuel. The Stug has a penetration of 140 only 14 points less than the Tiger. German Armor can be just as cheap and still out perform their opponents so long as they have infantry along with them (only exception being assault grenadiers if you count the panzerfaust as important, which it is).

[禮安]

引用自 Ranger_501st：

For correction the Stug III Ausf. G is 280 manpower 95 fuel. The Stug has a penetration of 140 only 14 points less than the Tiger. German Armor can be just as cheap and still out perform their opponents so long as they have infantry along with them (only exception being assault grenadiers if you count the panzerfaust as important, which it is).

The T-34 costs less than the StuG fuel-wise. And you can destroy it with the T-34 by circle strafing it. Even a T-70 can destroy a StuG just by circle strafing.

[YCWD]

@Wendelin.

Wrong. Do a simple cost analysis. Take DPS and divide it by manpower cost. German infantry wins. Conscripts if used as a fighting force are weaker FOR COST then Grens. 250 MP 50 fuel weaker to be specific.

Then you add to this the DPS of the LMG which BY ITSELF has the damage of a conscript squad and is the last entity to die. So if I burn a Gren alive and he is down to his last entity HE IS STILL DOING MORE DAMAGE THAN MY SCRIPTS LOL!

So now we have physics and outnumbering etc. 480 MP is what I am supposed to use to counter that cheap little Greny. Ok so what about upkeep? Crap I got more than that too. And I got to micro two units now? With input lag being what it is etc.

My only choice is to counter German infantry with MORE EXPENSIVE INFANTRY. That means Shocks and Penals not guards oh no their DPS is simply too low (exactly the same as conscripts upgraded or not because they rarely can fire both DP LMGs and each DP LMG does as much damage as two script entities so there ya go)

Now as was discussed they fixed this with the T34. They havent with the infantry as of yet. German players should always win the infantry battle for cost. If the Soviet wips out Shocks build and micro that sniper you never use and profit.

[禮安]

引用自 JHeartless：

@Wendelin.

Wrong. Do a simple cost analysis. Take DPS and divide it by manpower cost. German infantry wins. Conscripts if used as a fighting force are weaker FOR COST then Grens. 250 MP 50 fuel weaker to be specific.

Then you add to this the DPS of the LMG which BY ITSELF has the damage of a conscript squad and is the last entity to die. So if I burn a Gren alive and he is down to his last entity HE IS STILL DOING MORE DAMAGE THAN MY SCRIPTS LOL!

So now we have physics and outnumbering etc. 480 MP is what I am supposed to use to counter that cheap little Greny. Ok so what about upkeep? Crap I got more than that too. And I got to micro two units now? With input lag being what it is etc.

My only choice is to counter German infantry with MORE EXPENSIVE INFANTRY. That means Shocks and Penals not guards oh no their DPS is simply too low (exactly the same as conscripts upgraded or not because they rarely can fire both DP LMGs and each DP LMG does as much damage as two script entities so there ya go)

Now as was discussed they fixed this with the T34. They havent with the infantry as of yet. German players should always win the infantry battle for cost. If the Soviet wips out Shocks build and micro that sniper you never use and profit.

You don't need the upgrades for the Conscripts to be truly effective. Those are just addons to make them more effective,but they're not essential.

And I already said the LMG needs to be nerfed to Tier 1 upgrade,and not given right off the bat.

And no that's not your 'only choice'. You can use multiple Conscript squads and use flanking and cover. They can be effective. Unless if put into situations that aren't suited for them. E.G. Trying to take down Panzer Grenadiers at close range with a single unit of Conscripts.

Guards aren't even supposed to be dedicated anti-infantry,they're more on anti-vehicle. So stop using them for the wrong things.

[Joikax]

引用自 JHeartless：

Now as was discussed they fixed this with the T34. They havent with the infantry as of yet. German players should always win the infantry battle for cost. If the Soviet wips out Shocks build and micro that sniper you never use and profit.

Yeah, german sniper works wonder if you micro it well.



Once, in one of the few games I played as germans a week or 2 ago, I had a sniper face 2 chasing shock squads. So all I did was keep on retreating and cloaking, when I got to max range i would shoot, and again retreat a bit and go cloak again.

In the end I ended up having 1 of the squads reduced to 2 and the other to 3 men. It was on steppes, I had no infantry whatsoever on the south island, just kept retreating my german sniper from the point just south of their base to the VP point on the island. Then I had a carefully placed MG bunker covering the vp so I retreat my sniper in its way to lure the shocks in. And those 2 squads just went running straight away ;D.

That sniper went instant vet 1 and halfway to vet2. woohoooo

[Aristotle Full Throttle]

Assuming Wendelin that the German Player doesn't just keep backing his Stug III G while firing at the T-34/76 or the T-70 which will die in 2 shots.

[禮安]

引用自 Ranger_501st：

Assuming Wendelin that the German Player doesn't just keep backing his Stug III G while firing at the T-34/76 or the T-70 which will die in 2 shots.

Then that's an effective counter to that tactic. Nothing to argue about. Circling is possible even if it's reversing,as long as the terrain has no obstacles at the flanks.

[YCWD]

引用自 Wendelin：

引用自 JHeartless：

@Wendelin.

Wrong. Do a simple cost analysis. Take DPS and divide it by manpower cost. German infantry wins. Conscripts if used as a fighting force are weaker FOR COST then Grens. 250 MP 50 fuel weaker to be specific.

Then you add to this the DPS of the LMG which BY ITSELF has the damage of a conscript squad and is the last entity to die. So if I burn a Gren alive and he is down to his last entity HE IS STILL DOING MORE DAMAGE THAN MY SCRIPTS LOL!

So now we have physics and outnumbering etc. 480 MP is what I am supposed to use to counter that cheap little Greny. Ok so what about upkeep? Crap I got more than that too. And I got to micro two units now? With input lag being what it is etc.

My only choice is to counter German infantry with MORE EXPENSIVE INFANTRY. That means Shocks and Penals not guards oh no their DPS is simply too low (exactly the same as conscripts upgraded or not because they rarely can fire both DP LMGs and each DP LMG does as much damage as two script entities so there ya go)

Now as was discussed they fixed this with the T34. They havent with the infantry as of yet. German players should always win the infantry battle for cost. If the Soviet wips out Shocks build and micro that sniper you never use and profit.

You don't need the upgrades for the Conscripts to be truly effective. Those are just addons to make them effective,but they're not essential.

And I already said the LMG needs to be nerfed to Tier 1 upgrade,and not given right off the bat.

And no that's not your 'only choice'. Either you use multiple Conscript squads and use flanking and cover. They can be effective. Unless if put into situations that aren't suited for them. E.G. Trying to take down Panzer Grenadiers at close range with a single unit of Conscripts.

Guards aren't even supposed to be dedicated anti-infantry,they're more on anti-vehicle. So stop using them for the wrong things.

Actually guards can counter Grens. And even LMG grens with a lucky nade. Funny they shouldnt beat Grens even though on paper their DP lmg has about the same DPS as the LMG and costs the same. Of course in broken practice this doesnt play out.

And like you said I should use 480 Manpower to counter your 240 MP. That makes perfect sense.

To have Scripts be useful you are going to want those upgrades. The thing is you rarely get both you gotta pick your poison. And then rolling the cost of even one upgrade into the cost of scripts MAKES THEM MORE EXPENSIVE lol.

Rolling the LMG into phase 1 will do little. Phase 2 however would be fair. Phase 1 is picked up ASAP so the Ost player can spit out Rifle nades if they need it so its hardly late in the game.

Barring that LMG should be cost cut and damage cut significantly.

Using the arguement that I should counter a mirrord and less expensive unit with more units or more expensive units sure does sound like the arguement for not nerfing the SU85 back in the day. So what Its a tank destroyer its meant to kill 2 panthers and a tiger by reverseing!!!!

[禮安]

If you've ever bothered to use flanking and cover you would know that the Conscripts deal with infantry just fine.

And yes I know that Guards can counter Grenadiers but they're more dedicated to anti-vehicle roles.

Wanting and needing are two different things. The upgrades are not essential to what their primary role is.

And what are you talking about? Maybe explain a bit more clearly what your last 'argument' is?

[Joikax]

引用自 Wendelin：

If you've ever bothered to use flanking and cover you would know that the Conscripts deal with infantry just fine.

And yes I know that Guards can counter Grenadiers but they're more dedicated to anti-vehicle roles.

Wanting and needing are two different things. The upgrades are not essential to what their primary role is.

And what are you talking about? Maybe explain a bit more clearly what your last 'argument' is?

The lack of accuracy and general durability does not make them that good in flanking attempts. Unless they carry molotovs around, then yes.