The M1 81 MM Mortar for the US Forces.

[Armored Baron]

So I bought the expansion a week ago and was waiting till the release when I saw a list of the USF units that were in the expansion and didn't notice the Americans having any non-company mortar units, at least the M2 60 MM Mortar from the old game but no, and yeah I know about the 75mm pack Arty and the M8 Scott Howitzer but I still think they should have a non-company Mortar, it's not like the Americans didn't use any mortar or division/platoon/company sized in-direct fire support during the last days of the war in Europe. What do you guys think? And please, don't take me in the wrong way, the USF are a really nice Army, no doubt, I just feel like they aren't going to be equal in a toe-to-toe with the support weapons of the original 2 armies, I mean, the Soviets and Ostsheer both have heavy MGs (that are no where near the caliber of the 50. Cal and to be honest I take this is a big dissapointment because nobody would be that crazy to send a squad of military support weapon personel with a 50. Cal heavy MG in the field when it was at least twice as heavy as the other 30. Cal MGs and the aren't put on Tanks and half-tracks for no reason you know, even during the ending of the war) and 81 mm mortars that are not doctrinable and both are from the caliber of the US M1919 Browning 30. Cal Medium Machinegun and M1 MM Mortar, I'd swap the 50. Cal for those 2 weapons to be honest, it will be both more balanced and more realistic.

[Falaris]

Pack howitzer is not a commader ability, and works kind of like a mortar - it will autofire on targets, but if you want to direct its fire manually you need to use barrage ability.

The .50 cal is not bad. If you don't want it on squads you can get it on the utility vehicle instead. You can't really say it is unrealistic as a squad weapon, because it was deployed as one.

[Armored Baron]

Originally posted by Falaris:

Pack howitzer is not a commader ability, and works kind of like a mortar - it will autofire on targets, but if you want to direct its fire manually you need to use barrage ability.

The .50 cal is not bad. If you don't want it on squads you can get it on the utility vehicle instead. You can't really say it is unrealistic as a squad weapon, because it was deployed as one.

Did you even read my comment? I said I know it isn't a commander call in, but you can't say it's on the same tier as the other mortars and I don't think you can call it in as quickly or as early as the other mortars. And I never said the 50 Cal was bad, I just said it's unrealistic and bad for the balance to the point where I would agree if it was to the Airborne commander like the Soviet DShK, I mean, have it as the default MG is pretty risky with the balance, that's all, and my idea for the M1 80mm Mortar and M1919 MMG is in my opinion a better solution to the problem than removing the MG or replacing it with anything else. And the M20 is like kinda late too and I didn't say I don't want the 50 Cal on a squad, I said it was unrealistic, and again, I agree on it being a call in MG from one of the commanders, not a default one.

[Falaris]

Originally posted by A. Soldier:

Originally posted by Falaris:

Pack howitzer is not a commader ability, and works kind of like a mortar - it will autofire on targets, but if you want to direct its fire manually you need to use barrage ability.

The .50 cal is not bad. If you don't want it on squads you can get it on the utility vehicle instead. You can't really say it is unrealistic as a squad weapon, because it was deployed as one.

Did you even read my comment? I said I know it isn't a commander call in, but you can't say it's on the same tier as the other mortars and I don't think you can call it in as quickly or as early as the other mortars.

Now, I do ask that you refrain from comments like 'did you even read'.. and such. It doesn't help a civil discussion. I did read your comment, though, even though it is a fairly hefty Wall of Text.

You repeatedly said the US should have a non-company mortar. That made it at the very least unclear, since the pack howitzer, for all intents and purposes, is an extra strong mortar.

Now, as for how long it takes to get it, the US - unsurprisingly - is not identical to Wehrmacht and Soviets. However, like the Soviets they CAN unlock the pack howitzer/AT building first - just like the soviets can unlock their support building and mortar first. Although, they can't get it equally fast because they don't start with enough fuel to unlock it immediately.

And I never said the 50 Cal was bad, I just said it's unrealistic

You said you would trade it away. That doesn't imply you're happy about it, y'know. Also, repeating myself here, you can't say it's unrealistic to deploy it as a squad weapon because it WAS commonly deployed as a squad weapon.

[Armored Baron]

You seem like a civil troll so I'll just put it like this, if it was realistically as you say the 50 Cal would of been the main US MG in the first game, it would of been used more than the 30 Cals, it would of been much, much more than it was in reality, and again, why wasn't it? Well because I already said it, it was too heavy to carry, it needed at least 4 or 5 people to carry it, plus 1 or 2 and maybe even 3 guys to carry all of the 50 Cal ammo around because those things weren't easy to carry either, because it was resource and time demanding to produce and in the thich headrows of Europe and jungles of the Pacific were no homes for these beasts, and if they were really meant for infantry we would of been seeing way more 20 mm cannons on tanks and half tracks than 50 Cals on them, so explain to me, was it that and why is that not?

[Falaris]

You seriously want me to explain why they mounted 50 cals on vehicles instead of 20mm, as a way to explain why ma deuce's were used by the infantry? And you call me a troll?

And let's get this out of the way right away: No, it does not have to be THE most used gun for its use to be realistic. .30 cals were roughly twice as common. But would having EVERY mg in the game be roughly the same be a good thing? No.

Look up the ToE's yourself for exact numbers.

As for too heavy - getting grunts to lug around heavy equipment is what armies DO.

Resource and time demanding to produce? They built nearly two million.

It was in fact so impractical to use that it is STILL in use in the US infantry as a squad weapon.

[Armored Baron]

I want you to explain why wasn't the most common and most used machine gun of the United States Army the M2 instead of the M1917 and M1919 MMGs? And I used the 20 mm as an example if the infantry had no problem carrying the 50 Cal in combat why couldn't all of the US tanks be like the M3 Lee but with a 20 mm instead of a 37 mm gun, it's the same thing and I am following your logic, that's why it isn't making any sense to you.

I am not saying it should be the most used gun, I am saying the best suited and most balanced heavy support weapon for the Americans in the game. And no, again, the 2 Soviet and German MGs are quite different to each other and to be honest I much more prefer the MG42 than the Soviet Maxim. And again, if the M1919 was added it have way different stats and would be diffrent.

The M2 has 3 milion units total and is still in production since 1921, the M1919 has 5 milion units since 1919 to 1945, those numbers mean a lot and support my saying that the 50 Cal was not as widly used as you said or Relic made it look like in the game and that while it might of been very cost effective I still don't think even 30% of them were issued to grunts and not installed in any vehicles.

Don't use that "Light Infantry" joke on me, nobody falls for that, back then they didn't have gyms, the words "fitness" or "bodybuilding" to expect an ordinary GI to carry a 80 lbs Machine gun that became 130 with the tri pod, ammo and reserve barrel. If 2 or 3 people carried the M1919 back then that means that at least 4 or 5 and even 6 should carry the M2, and as I said 1 or 2 other guys with the rest of the stuff (tri-pods, ammo, reserve barrel...) so no, you're arguement is invalid.

I already explained that.

I already explained that too.

[WDH3]

I am a whole month late on this, but you are both right. However, for the game purposes, I would have to say that the .30cal should be the MG crew you can recruit without being doctrinal(have just started the US forces so I dont know whether it is or not) and the .50cal should be be a crew for some form of defensive commander.(much like the Soviets have for the dshkm) And as far as mortars go(which I believe is the original intent and reason I found this thread) I too was disappointed that there is no man mobile mortar for the Americans, I am not asking for a 120mm infantry mortar or even a 81mm, just a 60mm will do fine

[Armored Baron]

Originally posted by Nerraw:

I am a whole month late on this, but you are both right. However, for the game purposes, I would have to say that the .30cal should be the MG crew you can recruit without being doctrinal(have just started the US forces so I dont know whether it is or not) and the .50cal should be be a crew for some form of defensive commander.(much like the Soviets have for the dshkm) And as far as mortars go(which I believe is the original intent and reason I found this thread) I too was disappointed that there is no man mobile mortar for the Americans, I am not asking for a 120mm infantry mortar or even a 81mm, just a 60mm will do fine

No problem, I made this topic long before I started playing the WFA because of technical difficulties, I just though this is some serious unrealism. And no, I vote 100% on the 81 mm M1 because it would be on par with the Soviet and Osthseer ones, both of them are mobile 81 mms, I don't even know why the M2 60mm was chosen over the M1 81mm anyway but whatever I guess.

[Athena's Spear]

75mm pack does it job aswell, in some caes I find it better than mortars

[Armored Baron]

Originally posted by Coomber12:

75mm pack does it job aswell, in some caes I find it better than mortars

Look, the guy said he knows the topic is old, and I said that I made this topic before I tried out the US Forces, I didn't know how the 75 mm pack and .50 cal would work in the game but it sounded so unrealistic and yes, I was speaking out of my ass, I admit that.

[Hikuran]

I think the best way to solve it, is to make combat position mortarpit upgradable

[Sergio Bigshot]

If Wehr or OKW get MGs in buildings (which isn't that difficult to do) then USF are going to have a bad time. It takes forever for to unlock the pack and then repop to 480 to get one, by that time ground has been surrendered.

[Athena's Spear]

Originally posted by A. Soldier:

Originally posted by Coomber12:

75mm pack does it job aswell, in some caes I find it better than mortars

Look, the guy said he knows the topic is old, and I said that I made this topic before I tried out the US Forces, I didn't know how the 75 mm pack and .50 cal would work in the game but it sounded so unrealistic and yes, I was speaking out of my ass, I admit that.

75mm pack is meant to be used like a gun and a mortar (it is after all a howitzer), So apart from the obvious range limitation the implementation of the 75mm pack is as realistic as youll get in COH2 (I know that isnt saying much)

For future reference (and Im sure you have learnt), that dont pass judgment on something if you have not yet used it.

[Armored Baron]

Hey, I can't say much on the topic right now because I'm just playing comp stomp with OKW for these past 30 hours, the experience I've had with the US Forces is poor and my idea was taken from the original US Army from the original game, where the American Army had a support weapons depot or center or whatever the building was called from which you could call in a .30 cal HMG, the M2 60 MM mortar that couldn't fight a Wehr Mortar because the Wehr mortar was on tier 2, had way more range and firepower than the American one but as I said, tier 2, you get it earlier but you pay the price for keeping it until mid game, at least that's what my experience was back then. Oh and, you could also call in a dedicated sniper back then, and not a call in unit like the spotters or whatever they are called, which are not dedicated snipers. That's why I wanted pretty much the same config of buildings, now the Ostsheer have something like that configuration of building and teching but it's not the same...