T34-85

[✠ Kaiser ✠]

that tank is way too op, its just cheaper than okw p4 but faster and better armored.

[WARWOLFMELF]

İlk olarak Kaiser Friedrich tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Le Negev tarafından gönderildi:

P4J is non doctrinal.
T-35/85 is doctrinal.
End of the story.

its still op, i wiped a obersoldaten squad with only one shot with it

I got wiped by 1 shot form OKW pziv a lot.
You should test 1vs1 T34-85 vs pziv auf j before posting.
PZIV J already have better armor than t34.

[Felinewolfie]

İlk olarak Kaiser Friedrich tarafından gönderildi:

that tank is way too op, its just cheaper than okw p4 but faster and better armored.

T34/76 vs Pz4G, Pz4J, Pz4H - Pz4 wins
T34/85 vs PAnther - Panther wins

T34/76, Pz4GHJ = Medium tank
T3485/Panther = Medium Premium

This is why T34/85 wins.
But mind you, it's 14 pop. Pz4 (except J) are 12 pop.

learn how to play :)

[Riley]

İlk olarak Lovenest tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

"Yes, because having more pen than any generalist in the game is worse in comparison to P4J." Worse pen doesn't matter, most allied tanks will and can get pen'd by a P4, do your research.

Wow, how can someone be this freaking stupid? Imagine literally knowing nothing about the unit stats and telling others to "do your research". P4s only have an average of 115 pen. Shermans and T34-85s have 160 armour.

Imagine not understanding that 160 is around 40% higher than 115.

Obviously you don't know what you're talking about either, let's take a look at the stats shall we? Before I point out what an idiot you are.

Sherman 76's have 160 Armour and 130 Pen.
T-34/85's have 160 Armour and 140 Pen.
T-34/76's have 150 Armour and 115 Pen.
Cromwell's have 160 Armour and 120 Pen.

Ostheer P4's have 180 base Armour with 115 Pen. At vet 2 It's Armour goes up to 234.
The P4J which OKW get and Ostheer can get from a Doctrine Starts with 234 Armour as it has side skirts.

So tell me, what is better, since you're so great at Math. Let's combine those scores, the base Ostheer P4 without vet has a total combined armour and pen value of 295. With Vet 2 and including the P4J as well since they're practically identical in terms of Pen and armour stats comes to a grand total of 349! Now let's look at the allies shall we? Shermans have a combined 290 and the t-34/85's 300. Huh crazy...Imagine not understanding 349 is a higher number than 290 and 300. P4's with armour skirts have almost the same armour as a churchhill. Are you seriously telling me that a 74 boost in armour is worth the same as 15 loss in pen difference compared to a sherman? or 25 loss in pen difference compared to a t-34/85? Get out of here.

P4's trade slightly worse pen for greater armour, P4's also get a huge amount of doctrine upgrades and abilities that the others don't. The ONLY thing the t-34/85 get's over other medium tanks is that it has 800 hp instead of 640, which essentially boils down to being able to take one extra shot. A P4 has no problem Penning any medium tank, so that 115 pen means nothing, it does it's job well. And when you look how good of a tank it is compared to other mediums it's not a contest. Once you start comparing other tanks of similar tiers it only gets worse. Shall we compare the Panther and SU-85 next? How it has worse pen than a panther, worse armour, worse mobility etc? Or is that fine as well.

[Le Negev]

İlk olarak 76561199171654026 tarafından gönderildi:

Well it's a fair point that a doctrinal unit for Wehr has access to doctrinal abilities that definitely improve its effectiveness, even before veterancy, whilst the doctrinal T34/85 gets basically zilch.

Well, it can self repair if you count in doctrinal abilities. Whilst capturing point is rather situtional veterancy ability, it's still there.

İlk olarak 76561199171654026 tarafından gönderildi:

Because you and I both know that the "close" threshold isn't indicative of normal circumstances. Look at mid-long for a more accurate DPS number.

Well no, you said :

İlk olarak 76561199171654026 tarafından gönderildi:

What's the DPS of the T34/85 hull MG?

I, along with the other people that hang around discords themed around the game, always point out the highest DPS that the given weapon can dish out, so I'd rather say that we have simple two trains of though, not that I'm dishonest. Go ahead and ask a balance team member if I'm correct or not.

İlk olarak 76561199171654026 tarafından gönderildi:

The T34/76 has the same MG DPS as the 85 as well.

...just like KV-1 and T-34, who have the same gun. Fun fact.

[Le Negev]

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

Sherman 76's have 160 Armour and 130 Pen.
T-34/85's have 160 Armour and 140 Pen.
T-34/76's have 150 Armour and 115 Pen.
Cromwell's have 160 Armour and 120 Pen.

M4C has 160 armor and 140/130/120 penetration with standard rounds without veterancy. HVAP has 220/180/165 pen. Vetted, AP has 175/162.5/150 and HVAP has 275/225/206.25
85 has 160/140/120 pen, 160 armor AND 800 health, making the tank more... tanky than the P4J.
76 has 120/100/80 pen and 150 armor.
And finally the cromwell has 135 pen and 160 armor.

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

Armour as it has side skirts.

You are aware that side armor doesn't exists, right?

[Riley]

İlk olarak Le Negev tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

M4C has 160 armor and 140/130/120 penetration with standard rounds without veterancy. HVAP has 220/180/165 pen. Vetted, AP has 175/162.5/150 and HVAP has 275/225/206.25
85 has 160/140/120 pen, 160 armor AND 800 health, making the tank more... tanky than the P4J.
76 has 120/100/80 pen and 150 armor.
And finally the cromwell has 135 pen and 160 armor.

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

Armour as it has side skirts.

You are aware that side armor doesn't exists, right?

Yes side armour does exist, unless you're living in some fantasy world, judging by your previous comments I'm gonna tend to believe that as the case. Or maybe you don't understand English too well. Metal side skirts strapped onto a P4 still count as armour as their purpose is to help protect the tank. So side armour is accurate by definition.

Yes, being able to take one more shot from most tank and anti tank weaponry does make it more 'tanky' well done for repeating what I had already said... but that one extra shot means very little considering it's a premium medium tank, the extra 74 armour of the P4J will likely deflect a shot outright where as the T-34/85 will still get hit so not really more tanky either. If it was put into the game as non-doctrine that extra HP could either be removed or fixed into the added cost of production or upgrading a t-34/76 to a t-34/85.

Also what was the point in posting those stats exactly? All you've done is post the near and far values for penning. And you couldn't even be bothered to correctly post the Cromwells, 135/120/105.

[Flame-kun]

İlk olarak 7th tarafından gönderildi:

Sideskirt armor black blank blah blah blah

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

Sideskirt armor black blank blah blah blah

Then explain why there are no "side armor" number in coh2.win and coh2.serealia.ca, without pulling the "that site is outdated" card.

[✠ Kaiser ✠]

İlk olarak Felinewolfie tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Kaiser Friedrich tarafından gönderildi:

that tank is way too op, its just cheaper than okw p4 but faster and better armored.

T34/76 vs Pz4G, Pz4J, Pz4H - Pz4 wins
T34/85 vs PAnther - Panther wins

T34/76, Pz4GHJ = Medium tank
T3485/Panther = Medium Premium

This is why T34/85 wins.
But mind you, it's 14 pop. Pz4 (except J) are 12 pop.

learn how to play :)

does that change the fact that t34 85 is still op?

[Riley]

İlk olarak Flame-kun | Dirumah Aja tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

Sideskirt armor black blank blah blah blah

Then explain why there are no "side armor" number in coh2.win and coh2.serealia.ca, without pulling the "that site is outdated" card.

The person who said side armour doesn't exist never specified in what context it doesn't exist, you're implying as a stat in the game. No one ever said it was a stat. So your point is irrelevant. Try reading next time, it'll save you making a pointless comment.

[Riley]

İlk olarak 7th tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Riley tarafından gönderildi:

The person who said side armour doesn't exist never specified in what context it doesn't exist, you're implying as a stat in the game. No one ever said it was a stat. So your point is irrelevant. Try reading next time, it'll save you making a pointless comment.

If your reference to the remarks in the box stated by me. That is not my statement that has been put in by third parties. Read what I stated above and you will?

I wasn't replying or talking about your comments mate. The other person is who i was responding to.

[ShodaN]

Has even one of you considered the T34/85s role in the army composition in all this? It's an alrounder that is almost completely idential in terms of AI to the T34/76 and far worse in AT compared to the SU-85. That makes it just a slightly beefed up version of the T34/76 for a higher cost in both resources and popcap.

The only true benefit is the extra HP. Which overall still makes it an inefficient package deal. You can get the same AI power at a better timing with the T34/76 and far superior AT power with an SU-85 at a similar pricepoint.

T34/85s are not units you want to top out with. You can fill your popcap more efficiently with better alternatives, that specialize in one thing or the other. Otherwise their only use is to hit a timing window when you are ahead and can field them against enemies that still have only weaker mediums and small quantities of infantry based AT on the field.

[Kamrad]

Thanks to all the participants in the topic. I hadn’t played KoX2 for several years, so I was in doubt about using the T-34-85 doctrines. I play with friends in 4x4 and there the T-34-85 is of little use, there are too many anti-tank weapons and the T-34's survival rate is too low. This topic reinforced this feeling. Perhaps the 1x1 T-34-85 has some value.

The talk T-34 vs. Pz.4 is quite amusing, since arguments are pretty outdated, simplified or are delusional. Still funny. Best regards from Russia

[we are number one]

İlk olarak Kaiser Friedrich tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Le Negev tarafından gönderildi:

P4J is non doctrinal.
T-35/85 is doctrinal.
End of the story.

its still op, i wiped a obersoldaten squad with only one shot with it

yeah tanks and literally any other explosive equipment tend to do that to clumped units

[Lapvan]

İlk olarak 76561199171654026 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Le Negev tarafından gönderildi:

Exactly, somebody just brought up the abilities of festung P4 just because why not.

Well it's a fair point that a doctrinal unit for Wehr has access to doctrinal abilities that definitely improve its effectiveness, even before veterancy, whilst the doctrinal T34/85 gets basically zilch.

İlk olarak Le Negev tarafından gönderildi:

Elaborate numbers person.

Because you and I both know that the "close" threshold isn't indicative of normal circumstances. Look at mid-long for a more accurate DPS number. So after 10 to 35. Cut it even at the tail end of mid if you have to, so 20 range.

T34/85 combined DPS of MGs whilst stationary at 20 range = 20.55

OKW PzIV J combined DPS of MGs whilst stationary at 20 range = 15.95

OKW PzIV J combined DPS of MGs + turret mounted MG at 20 range = 25.25

And for the record:

Sherman M4A3 combined DPS of MGs whilst stationary at 20 range = 9.88

Sherman M4A3 combined DPS of MGs + turret mounted MG at 20 range = 17.68

and:

Panther combined DPS of hull MGs whilst stationary at 20 range = 18.68

Panther combined DPS of hull MGs + turret mounted MG at 20 range = 26.40

The T34/76 has the same MG DPS as the 85 as well.

can you pls help me link to original ?

[dt Walter Robinson]

The T-34/85 was introduced to help vs. Panthers and Tigers, but as the war went on Nazi tanks on the offensive became less of a concern and bunker busting IS-2s were the way to go, as Nazi Germany became a defensive force and fortification destruction became a priority.

About 2000 Tiger and Tiger II total were produced by wars end and about 4000 panthers total in the same time, but before that Soviet Russia was producing about 1200 T-34/85 PER MONTH.