IS-2 the worst heavy tank in the game

[Katukov]

The title says it all. The following will be said with team games in mind, but i will talk about 1v1 at the end as well.
Imagine buying a T-34-76, but you pay 230 fuel and almost 700 manpower, this is the IS-2 experience

I play the SOV extensively and the IS-2 is the biggest waste of fuel you could ever pay for. this completely useless tin can is the worst soviet tank in the game. Try as you may, you cant overstate how terrible this vehicle is. I could refute all counter-arguments that defend this useless, overpriced iron coffin, which costs the same as the german tiger, yet is completely worse in all ways. Lets see what it does:


This tank cannot fight infantry - its too inaccurate, so it cant fend off a panzershrek blob, or even any type of infantry while stationary. You will very commonly see several shots completely missing enemy infantry, even if stationary. you are practically forced to get the 60 muni top MG gunner upgrade, otherwise this thing cant hold back infantry. The 45 muni shot is also subject to the accuracy, so do not count on it.
What to do in this regard? check the later part of the comment.
(Note: the king tiger easily snipes infantry models at vet 0 than the IS-2 at vet 2, the king tiger also does a way better job at this, even the panzer 4s of both factions can effectively whittle down infantry, but not the IS.)

This tank cannot fight tanks - its range sucks, its penetration sucks, its damage sucks as well. This tank can only reliably kill an Ostwind and a singular panzer 4. the penetration of this gun makes it so it bounces OKW panzer 4s at times, and it especially bounces panthers of both axis factions. Panthers can easily 1v1 the IS-2. With support, the axis players also get an almost permanent initiative over the soviet tank, even if the IS itself has support.
So, the gun doesn't penetrate, sometimes doesn't even hit in the same sector, but what if it does penetrate? then you do less damage than with a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ SU-76 penetration shot. The SU-85 makes you completely obsolete versus AT, the ISU-152 even more so, the turret really isn't a saving grace, as the gun fires blank rounds.

So, what now? you got a lot of armor (on paper), that's nice, if only it mattered, as the standard german tanks all penetrate you with reliability, heavy TDs completely ♥♥♥♥ you over. The only good thing about the IS-2 is the 60 muni DSHK, this kills airplanes reliably, perhaps the only thing the IS-2 gets to kill at a steady rate.

I have never used the IS-2 in 1v1 battles because wasting 230 fuel and 640 manpower on a VERY RNG dependant unit is not worth it, instead get several T-34s + support weapon for the same price and you will find how you win way easier, as two tanks and an AT gun outperform this piece of junk.

So...How do you actually use the IS-2? the simple answer is that you do not, buy an ISU-152 in team games and a T-34 in 1v1s. Compared to this, the ISU-152 very reliably hits infantry, reliably hits tanks, has the same MG and way more range. It makes the IS-2 completely obsolete, but its not an axis vehicle so it gets nerfed in the winter patch.

The tiger 1 costs the same as the IS-2, yet the tiger tank does everything better than the IS-2 does.

[ZenKoala]

Yep, tiger 1 is trash, IS 2 is trash Pershing is trash for cost. All nerfed to oblivion.

[ShodaN]

It's not their stats. It's the fact that super long range heavies (Ele, JT, ISU) dominate teamgames, because of the overcrowded, far too small maps and because in 1vs1 having more moving pieces that can be annoying at multiple locations takes priority.

[Katukov]

Originally posted by ShodaN:

It's not their stats. It's the fact that super long range heavies (Ele, JT, ISU) dominate teamgames, because of the overcrowded, far too small maps and because in 1vs1 having more moving pieces that can be annoying at multiple locations takes priority.

False, the IS-2 is too inaccurate to even be useful when it should be useful. Axis infantry can even ignore it if they blob it, this cant be done if you fight against the ISU-152
If the IS-2 was at least accurate when it fired, it would be way more than enough

Originally posted by ZenKoala:

Yep, tiger 1 is trash, IS 2 is trash Pershing is trash for cost. All nerfed to oblivion.

the Tiger 1 at least has consistent trends of sniping soviet infantry models at all ranges, but so does the panzer 4...

[Ariaztel]

Ive seen pz4 one shot 6 man squads that werent clipping and full hp more than once. If the state of the game represented my life i wouldve offed myself.

[Katukov]

Originally posted by PotatoScav:

Originally posted by Katukov:

False, the IS-2 is too inaccurate to even be useful when it should be useful. Axis infantry can even ignore it if they blob it, this cant be done if you fight against the ISU-152
If the IS-2 was at least accurate when it fired, it would be way more than enough


the Tiger 1 at least has consistent trends of sniping soviet infantry models at all ranges, but so does the panzer 4...

I mean you have shock troop in the doctrine so idk how much anti infantry you want ,
Maybe try to stop your tank before you shoot that will be way more accurate .
IS2 serve as an all rounder with a machine gun on top , M26 and kv2 don't even have one .

you did not read the post.

Shock troops are good, but this doesn't mean that IS-2 is supposed to be complete trash, the tank while stationary will miss more than the tiger 1 that moves. This tank is an all rounder that sucks at all roles besides a nice 230 fuel anti air weapon, as the DSHK consistently kills airplanes, and thats the only consistent enemy you can kill.

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Katukov:

False, the IS-2 is too inaccurate to even be useful when it should be useful. Axis infantry can even ignore it if they blob it, this cant be done if you fight against the ISU-152
If the IS-2 was at least accurate when it fired, it would be way more than enough

It has always been inaccurate. Even more so in the past. Properly used - which is to say never firing whilst moving and considering how terrain migh block your shots - it gets results. Eventhough the IS-2 has more scatter than a Tiger (scattermax 4.3 vs 5.7), it also has a larger area of effect (3.5 vs 5, the frag round has 8).

As I said you are simply too acustomed to how easy the ISU-152 is to use in teamgames. Its one downside of being a slow and cumbersome assault gun type heavy doesn't really matter there, because flanks are easy to secure.

[Hekkura]

To be honest, all heavy tanks in the game are in a somewhat sorry state
I do agree though, the IS-2 is the worst one, but the Tiger, Pershing, Churchill, and KT isn't that much better
The simple reason is...well, range and impact
Most of these tanks have 40-45 range, with the IS-2 having 40 range (standard tank range), as a result, you don't have much higher impact compared to just getting a medium tank

More over, at the stage of when you are getting it, there would be counters like the Panther (50 range, very fast, good armor), JagdPanzer (60 range), StuG (50 range, fast fire, cheap) or....well any of the heavy TD with 60+ range.

On smaller 1v1 or 2v2, getting several mediums or a heavy TD is better due to them having multiple guns or having incredible range.

There's more reasons to why you shouldn't get heavies
-Easier to punish by commander abilities
-Easier to dive by anti tank vehicles
-Less ways to counter long range AT vehicles
-3 minute cooldown to call in if destroyed
-less map presence, your enemy could simply ignore it on the other side
-Hit a mine? congratz, you just lost your heavy as it is out of position with engine damage.

Now, why is the IS-2 the worst one?
Joint worst scatter and accuracy
40 range, Tiger and KT has 45 (50 for vetted Tiger)
Standard Heavy Hitpoints, Churchill has more
No mobility or defensive abilities (Axis heavies has Blitz and potentially smoke, Churchill has smoke, Pershing is faster)

So....how to get around this?
Just don't buy the IS-2, instead buy the KV-8 and a T-34 or two (or a SU-85), problem solved.
Same thing goes with Axis, you don't buy the Tiger, you buy a panther and a werf, or a Brummbar and something else depending on the situation.
If you are at any stage going for a heavy.....consider buying 2 mediums instead or a cheap heavy like KV...ofc the bigger the game, the less you have to consider this, but still relevant

[Katukov]

Originally posted by ShodaN:

Originally posted by Katukov:

False, the IS-2 is too inaccurate to even be useful when it should be useful. Axis infantry can even ignore it if they blob it, this cant be done if you fight against the ISU-152
If the IS-2 was at least accurate when it fired, it would be way more than enough

It has always been inaccurate. Even more so in the past. Properly used - which is to say never firing whilst moving and considering how terrain migh block your shots - it gets results. Eventhough the IS-2 has more scatter than a Tiger (scattermax 4.3 vs 5.7), it also has a larger area of effect (3.5 vs 5, the frag round has 8).

As I said you are simply too acustomed to how easy the ISU-152 is to use in teamgames. Its one downside of being a slow and cumbersome assault gun type heavy doesn't really matter there, because flanks are easy to secure.

the ISU-152 isn't just easy to use, its better than the IS-2, hard stats don't matter because the Tiger 1 snipes infantry better in practice, unlike this and the ISU-152, the IS-2 employs a drunk homeless man as it's gunner.
As i said before, the ideal thing is to not ever use this and instead use medium tanks, you get more of them and you will definitely thank yourself for two T-34-85s than a single useless IS-2

Originally posted by Hekkura:

To be honest, all heavy tanks in the game are in a somewhat sorry state
I do agree though, the IS-2 is the worst one, but the Tiger, Pershing, Churchill, and KT isn't that much better
The simple reason is...well, range and impact
Most of these tanks have 40-45 range, with the IS-2 having 40 range (standard tank range), as a result, you don't have much higher impact compared to just getting a medium tank

More over, at the stage of when you are getting it, there would be counters like the Panther (50 range, very fast, good armor), JagdPanzer (60 range), StuG (50 range, fast fire, cheap) or....well any of the heavy TD with 60+ range.

On smaller 1v1 or 2v2, getting several mediums or a heavy TD is better due to them having multiple guns or having incredible range.

There's more reasons to why you shouldn't get heavies
-Easier to punish by commander abilities
-Easier to dive by anti tank vehicles
-Less ways to counter long range AT vehicles
-3 minute cooldown to call in if destroyed
-less map presence, your enemy could simply ignore it on the other side
-Hit a mine? congratz, you just lost your heavy as it is out of position with engine damage.

Now, why is the IS-2 the worst one?
Joint worst scatter and accuracy
40 range, Tiger and KT has 45 (50 for vetted Tiger)
Standard Heavy Hitpoints, Churchill has more
No mobility or defensive abilities (Axis heavies has Blitz and potentially smoke, Churchill has smoke, Pershing is faster)

So....how to get around this?
Just don't buy the IS-2, instead buy the KV-8 and a T-34 or two (or a SU-85), problem solved.
Same thing goes with Axis, you don't buy the Tiger, you buy a panther and a werf, or a Brummbar and something else depending on the situation.
If you are at any stage going for a heavy.....consider buying 2 mediums instead or a cheap heavy like KV...ofc the bigger the game, the less you have to consider this, but still relevant

Couldn't have said it better, but you have a mistake in there
Heavy tanks like the KV-1 and churchill are okay support damage sponges

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Katukov:

the ISU-152 isn't just easy to use, its better than the IS-2, hard stats don't matter because the Tiger 1 snipes infantry better in practice, unlike this and the ISU-152, the IS-2 employs a drunk homeless man as it's gunner.
As i said before, the ideal thing is to not ever use this and instead use medium tanks, you get more of them and you will definitely thank yourself for two T-34-85s than a single useless IS-2

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't mix up the issues.

That the ISU-152 is preferable in teamgames, is because of how those play in general. A massive range unit is going to work better. That multiple medium tanks are preferable in 1vs1 is based on the fact that mobile firepower in multiple locations is better.

A change to the IS-2 accuracy doesn't affect these things.

[Hekkura]

The KV-2 is cheaper, and has longer range, the latter alone already makes it better than the IS-2. It also has much larger splash radius.
The penetration on the main gun doesn't really matter because it has 50% deflection damage, meaning every shot will deal some damage regardless of penetration.

[Hekkura]

Originally posted by Katukov:

Couldn't have said it better, but you have a mistake in there
Heavy tanks like the KV-1 and churchill are okay support damage sponges

Yup, I forgot that both of them are cheaper than the IS-2. KV-1 is essentially a T-34/76 with better armor and hp for a decent price. The churchil I think is pretty good.

[kampfer91]

Heavy tank not good for open maps , but on map with many buildings , bushes and tree that block sight line they are great . They are better at infantry wipe than dedicated tank destroyers .

[WARWOLFMELF]

Originally posted by PotatoScav:

Originally posted by Hekkura:

The KV-2 is cheaper, and has longer range, the latter alone already makes it better than the IS-2. It also has much larger splash radius.
The penetration on the main gun doesn't really matter because it has 50% deflection damage, meaning every shot will deal some damage regardless of penetration.

k but doesn't change the fact that
IS have both higher damage and penetration on its main gun
faster rotation , more armor
https://coh2.serealia.ca/

it does 160 damage like other tank.
but.
Its main gun pen rate are lower than panther. It is truly support tank.

[Lev Kravchenko]

It used to be an awesome heavy, but they nerfed the armor to ♥♥♥♥ and the gun, even if it couldn't pen, had reliable splash frag effects. Same goes for the M26 Armor nerfed to ♥♥♥♥ when historically it was even greater than a tiger's. AI function also diminished lol

[Katukov]

Originally posted by PotatoScav:

Originally posted by Hekkura:

The KV-2 is cheaper, and has longer range, the latter alone already makes it better than the IS-2. It also has much larger splash radius.
The penetration on the main gun doesn't really matter because it has 50% deflection damage, meaning every shot will deal some damage regardless of penetration.

k but doesn't change the fact that
IS have both higher damage and penetration on its main gun
faster rotation , more armor
https://coh2.serealia.ca/

IS has no pen and it's scatter makes it so the high AoE is completely negated vs infantry, as it misses a lot. It's armor is negated because all German AT has very high pen, from PAK-40 to ferdinand.

your previous comment was also irrelevant as the IS-2 doesn't just lose vs ferdinand/Jagdtiger, but it consistently loses against panther on a pure 1v1 scenario. Why pay 230 fuel for a panzer 4 bully? until Lelic fix this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ tank and turn it from a worse tiger 1 into a unique brawl tank that has an accurate, long reload, high damage AT gun, the IS-2 will permanently stay as an unused asset of SOV forces, as it performs like one T-34-85 for the price of two T-34s