Against buildings - Champion or Halberdiers?

[okay]

Which one is better against buildings? One thing I've relearned about AOE2 is that AOE3 game mechanics does not apply. So I'm no more sure if Halbs are better than Champs against buildings.

[Loggy]

Champs have a higher attack bonus vs buildings - spearman line units (I think) get a tiny bonus but you are far, far better off using siege. Champs aren't terribly effective at anything except killing trash and eagle warriors, and are a rather costly line to upgrade fully.

[ExTiNcT_SaNitY]

Originally posted by Loggy:

Champs have a higher attack bonus vs buildings - spearman line units (I think) get a tiny bonus but you are far, far better off using siege. Champs aren't terribly effective at anything except killing trash and eagle warriors, and are a rather costly line to upgrade fully.

No! They both only gets +2 vs buildings, but Champs attack faster and gets as base attack very high high damage.

[Loggy]

Multiple sources (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=191310499, http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=190697884) disagree with you.

[Freeman1302]

In the data files it says Halberdiers have 1 bonus attack against standard buildings, Champions 4. Which means (not taking in account the buildings armor) 7 damage per hit for halberdiers and 17 for Champions. Considering like mentioned before the 2 reload time for Champions and the 3 reload time for Halberdiers, it would mean Champions are way more effective against buildings.

(I'm also not taking in account blacksmith upgrades which will further increase their attack)

[ExTiNcT_SaNitY]

Just did a test against a Frank rax as Britt, Champs +2, Halbs and Pikes none!

[Freeman1302]

That's because your buildings probably had armor researches.

[Loggy]

Fairly sure buildings have innate armor too?

[Freeman1302]

Only pierce armor. Melee armor is 0 at the start. Both masonry and architecture give +1 melee armor so 2 in total meaning that unupgraded Champions do 2 extra and unupgraded Halberdiers do 0 extra damage to buildings like ExTiNcT_SaNitY noticed.

[PlayOnVoobly]

Originally posted by 1302:

Only pierce armor. Melee armor is 0 at the start. Both masonry and architecture give +1 melee armor so 2 in total meaning that unupgraded Champions do 2 extra and unupgraded Halberdiers do 0 extra damage to buildings like ExTiNcT_SaNitY noticed.

Originally posted by ExTiNcT_SaNitY:

Originally posted by Loggy:

Champs have a higher attack bonus vs buildings - spearman line units (I think) get a tiny bonus but you are far, far better off using siege. Champs aren't terribly effective at anything except killing trash and eagle warriors, and are a rather costly line to upgrade fully.

No! They both only gets +2 vs buildings, but Champs attack faster and gets as base attack very high high damage.

You're both wrong, some buildings start with base armour and gain more after getting to next age, without upgrading anything at university. A palaside wall in fact has more armour than a barracks, and an achery range has 1 more armour than a barracks and house. I just tested in the map editor. I let an unupgraded champion attack unupgraded dark/feudal age buildings. A archery range receives 15 damage from a single strike, a barracks and house 16 damage and a palaside 14 damage. Then I set my enemy to feudal, I let my champion attack buildings. Suddenly, the house and barracks receive 14 damage instead of 16, but the palaside still gets 14 damage each hit.

[Freeman1302]

I was talking about dark age buildings and overlooked the aging up bonuses and swordsman boost in Forgotten Empires. You're numbers are right for the conquerors but your reasoning is not entirely right. All dark age buildings have 0 melee armor, feudal age buildings 1, castle age 2 and imperial age 3. Palisade walls always have 2, stone walls 8 and fortified walls 12. So every building except for walls will get one extra melee armor when aging up.
Archery ranges always have at least 1 because they can't be build in the dark age, just like monasteries and other castle age buildings always have at least 2 melee armor.

When I test these numbers in the editor the result is consistent with the data.
In dark age a champion has 12 (AoF:13) melee attack + the 4 hidden bonus damage vs buildings. A barracks in dark age has 0 melee armor. This means a champion deals 16 (AoF:17) damage to it. An archery range because it's feudal has 1 melee armor even in dark age so the champion deals 15 (AoF:16) damage to it. A university has 2 melee armor and so the champion deals 14 (AoF:15) damage to it.

When I set player 2 to feudal age the champion deals 15 (AoF:16) damage to the archery range and the barracks, while dealing 14 (AoF:15) damage to the university just as before.

If player 2 is in the castle age the champion will inflict 14 (AoF:15) damage to all three buildings.

In imperial age it's 13 (AoF:14) for all three of them.

If both players are post-imperial (and have access to all upgrades) the champion will deal 15 damage (AoF:16) per hit.

[ExTiNcT_SaNitY]

Originally posted by Cataphract:

You're both wrong, some buildings start with base armour and gain more after getting to next age, without upgrading anything at university. A palaside wall in fact has more armour than a barracks, and an achery range has 1 more armour than a barracks and house. I just tested in the map editor. I let an unupgraded champion attack unupgraded dark/feudal age buildings. A archery range receives 15 damage from a single strike, a barracks and house 16 damage and a palaside 14 damage. Then I set my enemy to feudal, I let my champion attack buildings. Suddenly, the house and barracks receive 14 damage instead of 16, but the palaside still gets 14 damage each hit.

No! Dark Age buildings has a n00b bonus, so Imperial units does less damage to them.