Balanced army composition advice

[Stefan]

In a scientific work for university I want to test the applicability of rules of real life war strategy in this game. For that I want to confront 2 armies of equal strength in test games under different circumstances and with different strategies.

Can anyone who knows AoE2 better please give me advice for how to put the armies together or what units I should use?

[Wafflesaurus Supreme]

Are you constructing this in the scenario editor? You could build a map without villagers or a town center and set up roughly equivalent forces and play against another human. (The AI would not provide accurate representation.)

You will probably want a mix of infantry, cavalry, and archers. Maybe add some light siege units.

Be careful when studying the tech tree so that you don't have a glaring matchup problem, such as Goths' huskarls vs British longbows.

[Stefan]

Thats exactly my plan and your last point is the reason why I am asking here, as I dont know the power relations of different units :)
Edit: I want both armies to have the exact same units, so that the unit composition as factor for victory is excluded in this test.

[-Dare Devil/x/]

-What do you mean "different circumstances and with different strageies".

[Stefan]

Originally posted by -Dare Devil/x/:

-What do you mean "different circumstances and with different strageies".

I relate to Carl von Clausewitz (a prussian general) who wrote that brute force is stronger than any other strategy in direct combat, so you have to use it if the opponent does it.
Another point is that if you dont know the enemies' exact power you put all your strength in an attack to minimize the risk of losing. For that I want to look at a match with fog of war compared to a match where you can see everything, and so on.
And one more point is this imbalance of attack and defense, with the defense being stronger.

I hope that answered your question.

[Stefan]

These points only relate to one battle unrelated to politics and everything else though, so I want to create just one battlefield with preset units before looking at an entire game...

[Mr_F0NG]

Try using knights and crossbows from any civ. In the editor just make sure P1 and P2 are the same civ and you have an equal test.

You can practice things like hit and run, flanking with your knights, using hill advantage(there is a height bonus in aoe2), going aggressive charging with knights and crossbows close behind.

The disclaimer is It will be hard to do the test with an AI, because real life factors like fear of danger or losing your troops isn't present with an AI. If you charge with your knights chances are the AI won't say "oh crap I'm dead!!", and then break and run while your knights cut them down.

However when you are actually fighting human players, using tactics of real warfare are indeed used. Many of the better players(not all) read books like "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. A pro player named Chris wrote his own eBook and I think it might be free from amazon.

You can't consider abstract things like morale, fear, and courage in the troops. But, since they are controlled by a player those emotions can translate to negative or positive actions in game. As a player you feel pressure from aggression. The goal in AoE2 is to break your opponents will. The most effective way is to that is to hit his economy. Things like losing an important battle or map control and can be very demoralizing. That's where your will comes in. Do you keep fighting or surrender at turning points?

As far a defense and offense, this game far and above favors offense. There are certain civs that specialize in defense. You can't win by sitting in your base though, the goal is while you are defending building a very strong economy to counter attack with a steady army of superior units.

Other games like stronghold will really favor defense. I think the harder point of your paper will be offense vs defense. Tactics of war change with technology, but I think what you are or should be looking for are principles that don't change, or change very little even with new technology.

[Wafflesaurus Supreme]

If you want to bump up the realism, it's not exactly common for two armed forces to be composed of exactly the same units and weapons. The Maxim machine gun is one example, and the worldwide proliferation of the Kalashnikov allows for other modern examples.

But if you're just goofing off and testing exactly equal forces for differences in battlefield tactics between two human players, the scenario editor is great.

[Stefan]

Originally posted by UltraFong:

Try using knights and crossbows from any civ. In the editor just make sure P1 and P2 are the same civ and you have an equal test.

You can practice things like hit and run, flanking with your knights, using hill advantage(there is a height bonus in aoe2), going aggressive charging with knights and crossbows close behind.

The disclaimer is It will be hard to do the test with an AI, because real life factors like fear of danger or losing your troops isn't present with an AI. If you charge with your knights chances are the AI won't say "oh crap I'm dead!!", and then break and run while your knights cut them down.

However when you are actually fighting human players, using tactics of real warfare are indeed used. Many of the better players(not all) read books like "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. A pro player named Chris wrote his own eBook and I think it might be free from amazon.

You can't consider abstract things like morale, fear, and courage in the troops. But, since they are controlled by a player those emotions can translate to negative or positive actions in game. As a player you feel pressure from aggression. The goal in AoE2 is to break your opponents will. The most effective way is to that is to hit his economy. Things like losing an important battle or map control and can be very demoralizing. That's where your will comes in. Do you keep fighting or surrender at turning points?

As far a defense and offense, this game far and above favors offense. There are certain civs that specialize in defense. You can't win by sitting in your base though, the goal is while you are defending building a very strong economy to counter attack with a steady army of superior units.

Other games like stronghold will really favor defense. I think the harder point of your paper will be offense vs defense. Tactics of war change with technology, but I think what you are or should be looking for are principles that don't change, or change very little even with new technology.

Tanks for the helpful answer! :)
I will indeed play this with a friend this weekend.
Sun Tzu actually was another suggested topic that we could choose xD

[Mr_F0NG]

You're welcome, good luck with your report. Let us know the grade :)

[Ashur_Arbaces]

Maybe it's a little late to say this but this might work better with a total war game than with AOE.

[Stefan]

Originally posted by UltraFong:

You're welcome, good luck with your report. Let us know the grade :)

Thanks, I can tell you in about a month but it's just 10 pages...
I'm in my first semester studying gamedesign :)

[Stefan]

Originally posted by AL Ashur_LeVaar:

Maybe it's a little late to say this but this might work better with a total war game than with AOE.

I chose AoE because I already played it a few years ago and it combines micro- and macromanagement, so I can look both at unit movement and the whole strategy in general.

[Hiryu-]

Originally posted by Cr4zyDude:

In a scientific work for university I want to test the applicability of rules of real life war strategy in this game. For that I want to confront 2 armies of equal strength in test games under different circumstances and with different strategies.

Can anyone who knows AoE2 better please give me advice for how to put the armies together or what units I should use?

Well, it will maybe disappoint you but the works of real-life strategists are not applicable to the tactical situation you are considering. It's too restrained. Some very basic tactical and strategic principles are applicable to a regular AoE2 game but not in the scenario you consider.
AoE2 does not attempt to recreate reality, it is just some simple, rigid gameplay mechanics with a "historical" polish.

Basically you are trying to use the recipes of a great chef to cook an instant soup.

Originally posted by UltraFong:

However when you are actually fighting human players, using tactics of real warfare are indeed used. Many of the better players(not all) read books like "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. A pro player named Chris wrote his own eBook and I think it might be free from amazon.

Excuse me sir, but this is complete BS. Sun Tzu won't help you being a better AoE2 player.

AoE2 is a game with a restrained set of rules that limits drastically the choices that players can make compared to a real-life commander. Planning consists only in a few build orders, there is little to no place for strategem and ruse, army positionning is simplistic because units dont have flanks or rear, terrain effect is limited to hills and chokepoints (units can't hide in forest, there is no swampy/rocky/muddy/frozen/desertic... terrain), units don't have morale nor experience, economy is oversimplified, there is no diplomacy, no political aspects, no others objectives that the total annihilation of the ennemy, no psychological warfare, no intelligence...

Knowledge of the game mechanics and APM are way more important that tactical sense and strategical thinking.

[Ashur_Arbaces]

Originally posted by Hiryu-:

Originally posted by Cr4zyDude:

In a scientific work for university I want to test the applicability of rules of real life war strategy in this game. For that I want to confront 2 armies of equal strength in test games under different circumstances and with different strategies.

Can anyone who knows AoE2 better please give me advice for how to put the armies together or what units I should use?

Well, it will maybe disappoint you but the works of real-life strategists are not applicable to the tactical situation you are considering. It's too restrained. Some very basic tactical and strategic principles are applicable to a regular AoE2 game but not in the scenario you consider.
AoE2 does not attempt to recreate reality, it is just some simple, rigid gameplay mechanics with a "historical" polish.

Basically you are trying to use the recipes of a great chef to cook an instant soup.

Originally posted by UltraFong:

However when you are actually fighting human players, using tactics of real warfare are indeed used. Many of the better players(not all) read books like "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. A pro player named Chris wrote his own eBook and I think it might be free from amazon.

Excuse me sir, but this is complete BS. Sun Tzu won't help you being a better AoE2 player.

AoE2 is a game with a restrained set of rules that limits drastically the choices that players can make compared to a real-life commander. Planning consists only in a few build orders, there is little to no place for strategem and ruse, army positionning is simplistic because units dont have flanks or rear, terrain effect is limited to hills and chokepoints (units can't hide in forest, there is no swampy/rocky/muddy/frozen/desertic... terrain), units don't have morale nor experience, economy is oversimplified, there is no diplomacy, no political aspects, no others objectives that the total annihilation of the ennemy, no psychological warfare, no intelligence...

Knowledge of the game mechanics and APM are way more important that tactical sense and strategical thinking.

Pretty much. But I disagree with the intelligence part, scouting in this game is a mechanic that is understimated on a regular basis. Also gamesense, adaptabilty and thinking ahead start playing a bigger part as soon as the game progresses beyond the micro intensive start of the game. But it's never comparable to a real life situation in any way.

Like I said Total War games would be a better candidate for a comparison with real life.

[Hiryu-]

Originally posted by AL Ashur_LeVaar:

Pretty much. But I disagree with the intelligence part, scouting in this game is a mechanic that is understimated on a regular basis.

Sun Tzu won't help much your scout micro ;)