Which civilization(s) has the best navy?

[Gaijin Gunji]

I am playing some Islands type maps and I would like to know which civilization(s) are the most navy oriented. One important detail is that I like to play post-imperial age maps.

[TerminallyGrill]

Vikings are regarded as the best because of their -25% cost. Saracens would be next with the +20 fire rate, tied with the Spanish and their unmatched Cannon Galleons.

[Gaijin Gunji]

Thank you. I will keep that in mind. How about the Koreans with the turtle ship?

[TerminallyGrill]

Like the Longboat, the Turtle Ship is good in theory and not much else. It's slow, expensive, requires a castle and needs to be massed to be effective - so Koreans aren't actually all that good on the water. Naval battles are decided with Galleys.

[John Fish]

Not to mention that the vikings have a pretty sweet economy bonus as well: wheelbarrow and hand cart free. This gives them a slight edge in the early feudal age and castle age, giving them a great chance at gaining control of water quickly.

I can understand how the slow and expensive turtle ship is never used, but I've never really understood why no one makes longboats? They're about as fast as a war galley, right?

[TheBattler]

Vikings are basically in a category of their own.

The next couple civs are about tied: Huns thanks to their Housing saving bonus, Japanese due to the fishing bonus, and Persians due to extra resources and faster working Docks.

Then Saracens, then pretty much everybody else.

Originally posted by Cuchulainn:

Vikings are regarded as the best because of their -25% cost. Saracens would be next with the +20 fire rate, tied with the Spanish and their unmatched Cannon Galleons.

Spanish are NOT a top naval civ by any means. They need to wait until the Imperial Age and research Chemistry and Cannon Galleon to use that bonus, by which time the water will have easily been won. There are no..."water boom" maps where the Spanish can make reliable use of their bonus.

Originally posted by lauren:

I can understand how the slow and expensive turtle ship is never used, but I've never really understood why no one makes longboats? They're about as fast as a war galley, right?

They're more expensive than Galleys, and they aren't that much better for the cost. By the time you can make Longboats, you will already have a bunch of Galleys since they are available in the Feudal Age. So it makes more sense to just upgrade all of your Galleys than to build more Longboats. Galleon is also cheaper than Elite Longboat.

[hot_gril]

Don't the multiple arrows fired from longboats work better in large naval battles because they do "area of effect" damage?

[Wafflesaurus Supreme]

Originally posted by sudo:

Don't the multiple arrows fired from longboats work better in large naval battles because they do "area of effect" damage?

AoE damage from longboats? That's news to me.

[TheBattler]

Originally posted by sudo:

Don't the multiple arrows fired from longboats work better in large naval battles because they do "area of effect" damage?

Regular Longboats miss their targets all the time. It's a programmed chance to miss.

Elite Longboats are more accurate, and each arrow does 1 extra damage, so the Elite version is actually pretty good but they are not much more cost effective than Galleons so their dirt cheap Galleons are still used more.

That makes me think of ANOTHER very important reason why Longboats aren't used: Galleons are good enough. Against the other 17 (or 22) civs in the game who have largely inferior Navies, there's no point in switching to more expensive Longboats.

Maybe if it's Viking vs Viking late game, or a severely disadvantaged Vikings vs a Saracen, then the Viking player might use Elite Longboats as a "tiebreaker" so to speak.

[Miiiiiiiiiiiiike]

Originally posted by TheBattler:

Vikings are basically in a category of their own.

The next couple civs are about tied: Huns thanks to their Housing saving bonus, Japanese due to the fishing bonus, and Persians due to extra resources and faster working Docks.

Then Saracens, then pretty much everybody else.

Spanish are NOT a top naval civ by any means. They need to wait until the Imperial Age and research Chemistry and Cannon Galleon to use that bonus, by which time the water will have easily been won. There are no..."water boom" maps where the Spanish can make reliable use of their bonus.

They're more expensive than Galleys, and they aren't that much better for the cost. By the time you can make Longboats, you will already have a bunch of Galleys since they are available in the Feudal Age. So it makes more sense to just upgrade all of your Galleys than to build more Longboats. Galleon is also cheaper than Elite Longboat.

The OP did say he plays games in the post-imperial game setting. So a lot of that isn't to be concerned about.

[TheBattler]

Originally posted by Miiiiiiiiiiiiike:

The OP did say he plays games in the post-imperial game setting. So a lot of that isn't to be concerned about.

Sorry. That's embarrassing; I usually read OPs pretty thoroughly.

In that case, Saracen would probably be the best.

Vikings with immediate access to Elite Longboat would probably be next.

Koreans and Spanish would be good if it's like a Death Match with each player having access to tons of resources to start, but it will take them a looooooong time to get their death machines going.

Then Turks, then everybody else.

[robo_boro]

and poor aztecs last of all

[Experienced Noob]

Hey the Aztecs need to suck in at least some situations!

What about Byzantine here? Because if you're starting post imp they could send their fire ships (AoF) at enemy docks before they have a chance to mass galleys. I realize massed galleys are going to beat fireships, but if they rushed fast enough, they might be able to prevent massed galleons from happening? Not sure about how this would actually work out, because I always play standard Dark Age start.

[robo_boro]

all the other civs need to do is defend for 15mins until they have 3 docks making galleon then dont let aztec land them and its gg

[kreexz]

The problem with longboats is that they don't beat viking galley line cost effectively. All other civs galley line is beaten though, at least before shipwright but probably post that too. But since only vikings can make longboats it's no point making them since viking galleons are better.

There are, however, some cases where longboats may be preferable. Like the chukonu, the longboat are pretty good at taking out rams. If pop limit is getting close longboats are more pop effective since they are stronger per unit.

[Butch]

A Post Imperial game negates a lot civilization bonuses and not to be a jerk but skill as well (unless for some reason its a deathmatch on water maps which seems awfully boring to me). Either way the top tiered naval civs are really pretty close in this situation. Since Saracens don't get shipwright, the cheaper ships and docks of the Vikings means faster and cheaper loss replacements giving them the edge.