What civ is the most useless?

[GrizzGolf]

What civ with all the DLC civs do you think is the most useless or underpowered and why?

[Antares]

People who don't agree that Turks ACE other civs in siege warfare, as does the ♥♥♥♥, clearly don't know how to use BBCs and trebs :)

From an historic point of order, I have to point out that the devs making Celts a siege civ just proves they were smoking some SERIOUS ♥♥♥♥...

Celts had NO concept of siege, whatsoever!

So playing Celts with siege weapons is like playing Aztecs with gunpowder. Yeah why didn't the devs make a Jaguar hand cannoneer. That would have fit the bill!

[Tamron]

They really dont tbh, its not just the siege but how you can protect the siege thats important. For bombard cannons their biggest enemy are cavalry and mass archers, turks lack both skirmisher and pikes. 2 more range means nothing if a knight can close that distance in half a second.
Japanese are good though

[Antares]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tamron:

They really dont tbh, its not just the siege but how you can protect the siege thats important. For bombard cannons their biggest enemy are cavalry and mass archers, turks lack both skirmisher and pikes. 2 more range means nothing if a knight can close that distance in half a second.
Japanese are good though

Janissaries in mass are lethal and will take a kinight contingent easily. And are really good at defending BBCs.

Of course you can put spears in the front line as buffer between your opponent's cavalry and your Janissaries.

[Hellman]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ✟Guardian1996☭:

Diposting pertama kali oleh King Devil:

How teutons are $hit?

-No eco bonuses (farm discount is not impressive).
-No military buffs (an open tech tree is nice to have, but definitely not need to have)
-Useless UU + UTs.

Crenalltions is good
Teutonic knights are good

[Guts]

Teutons are a good defensive civ. Their fire arrows and ability to garrison units to add extra arrows to the volley is pretty powerful for slowing people down until you can afford to get some teutonic knights going.

[Tamron]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mortimer:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tamron:

They really dont tbh, its not just the siege but how you can protect the siege thats important. For bombard cannons their biggest enemy are cavalry and mass archers, turks lack both skirmisher and pikes. 2 more range means nothing if a knight can close that distance in half a second.
Japanese are good though

Janissaries in mass are lethal and will take a kinight contingent easily. And are really good at defending BBCs.

Of course you can put spears in the front line as buffer between your opponent's cavalry and your Janissaries.

Where will you get the gold to support that?
55 gold each for jannisaries, 200 gold each for bombard cannons, and this army comp gets absolutely wrecked by halb/skirmisher combo, since turks dont get onagers.
Like come on man, i like bbcs too but they and the huns are the only ones who dont even get onager, turks are garbo in late game trash

[Antares]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tamron:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mortimer:

Janissaries in mass are lethal and will take a kinight contingent easily. And are really good at defending BBCs.

Of course you can put spears in the front line as buffer between your opponent's cavalry and your Janissaries.

Where will you get the gold to support that?

I will get it as a tribute from you in the late game.

If you've ever faced a Turkish army before with masses of Jans and BBCs, you'd know what I'm talking about.

Turks can start amassing Jans in Castle Age where there is enough gold. And in late game provided there is an ally or an enemy market to trade with.

That coupled with their bonuses;
Gunpowder technologies are 50% cheaper.
Chemistry is free.
Gold Miners work 20% faster.
Light Cavalry and Hussar upgrades are free.

Saves a lot of gold...

And onagers are seriously not everything. The Turkish BBCs out range onagers and because they're slow, get taken out easily.

Against skirms, Turks have formidable hussars, whilst halbs get taken out by Jans. And if facing heavy cavalry like knights etc, Turks spearmen can still pose a threat to them, as weak as they are. And don't forget Turks have strong camels too.

[Tamron]

I'm a turk main, i'd like to believe i know what im talking about. Mangonels are a huge deal against crowd, and good ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ luck getting the hussars through the halberdier barricade. The opponent will easily win a trash war as he watches you waste all your gold on units he counters with spammed trash units.

Lets do the math then:
gold miners working faster doesnt mean jack if there isnt gold to mine. At some point you have enough villagers on gold that the speed of it doesnt matter.
light cavalry and hussar upgrades save 650 gold.
free chemistry is 300 gold,
and the only upgrade the %50 cheaper gunpowder technologies affects is bombard tower, you save 50 gold from that.
So all in all the total amount of gold they save up is... 1000.
you can make a total of 5 bombard cannons with that. Wow!

Like i agree that turks have their strengths and that is overpowering the opponent quickly with hussars and gunpowder, siege and long, drawn out battles arent one of their strengths.

[Antares]

In that kind of scenario where you're attacking with onagers and halbs, hussar don't need to chase your onagers like they were some prom queen. Those hussars can go straight to your town and do real damage, inevitably diverting or quenching your onager attack completely.

But this of course depends on the scenario, map type etc. Obviously if you're playing on a map with limited gold, then Turks will have to trade. If that is not possible, then the Turks player is going to have a bad day. As does any civ that requires a lot of gold for that matter. And that is assuming the game is going to drag on in the late periods... Normally it doesn't, where the Turks ultimately in most instances win the day with overwhelming gunpowder.

And yes indeed 1000 gold or 5 bombard cannons can mean a lot if you at the stage finding yourself skimping with trash...

It's not that I am a Turks fan, but I do love gold, and for that reason the Spanish is my favourite civ. Portuguese second. I like Turks for super fast gold mining. Which in reality, I will mine gold faster than any other civ, which means that I can start hitting gold mines out in the map before my enemy can. If he puts more villagers on gold, he's at a disadvantage. So Turks are incredibly strong in this regard...

The argument however, is about siege though, not trash. If I were pitted in a setting where the probable outcome would be trash wars, I'd choose Byzantines hands down.

In 1V1 scenario, where you have normal BBCs vs onagers, BBCs > onagers. But because the Turks have extra range for their cannons, makes them formidable. Regardless of mixing in other units. Every civ has a counter to practically anything.

[tyrant ekul]

Celts have a lousy tech tree

[CatSup]

Malaysians but they are good on water maps.

[olistaeuble]

Spanish are not good.

[Tamron]

wtf

[Jineapple]

Vietnamese is the obvious answer to me. They are bad in 1v1, not that great in teamgames (elephants are decent, but the other SEA civs pull that off just as well or better). Can be seen in the ECL finals - Not sure if they were drafted even once. Nothing special on water either.

[Guts]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Jineapple:

Vietnamese is the obvious answer to me. They are bad in 1v1, not that great in teamgames (elephants are decent, but the other SEA civs pull that off just as well or better). Can be seen in the ECL finals - Not sure if they were drafted even once. Nothing special on water either.

While I mostly agree, I do think vietnamese have a niche role in team games. With their decent economy and decent trash units, they can sling to their allies for an early castle age while harassing early game. Once the vietnamese get to castle age, their paper money tech will let them catch back up in terms of the resources they lost to assist their ally. They'll never be able to fully fight back on their own vs a god tier civ, but they should be able to pump out all the support units to back up their ally's knights or whatever. It's much harder to get to the knights with your spearmen when there are archers and imperial skirms protecting.