land counter to spanish cannon gallons.

[Divine Porcupine!]

i bet there has been long debates about, but i would like it to be addressed.
there needs to be a land counter to the spanish gallons. they out range all siege units except trebs whos attack they can dodge. also they can take out docks before i can pump out a few ships. so maybe make treb projectiles fire faster?

i dont want crap about not letting them get that strong. i like team games where you can't always crush your enemy in the first 10-20mins.

[Mr_F0NG]

Cannons Galleons are a post imp unit. Their counter is both galleons and fire ships. If you can't make boats to counter them before that time then I don't know what to say.

You won't see them before 30-40 min. You can't change trebs like that. Then could kill all land siege too then with their high attack. In this case it's not about letting the enemy get that strong, but not building a navy on a water map isn't a good choice. If you are surrounded by cannon galleon on a team island map then it's time to resign.

The other option is dock away from the cannon galleons...

[Mr_F0NG]

There isn't a land counter, that's the point.

[Prosecutor Lurker]

The bombard galleons are supposed to clear annoying towers and castles on the coast to make a beachhead, you cannot really counter the explicit spanish galleon therefore because the civ is made to outwin any other civ that is defense heavy on the coastal landing. But if you really want to counter it, lot of bombard cannons(it's not a pure counter however) or any naval unit that can quickly mobilize to engage the bombard galleons(demolition ships or fireships or any naval UU).

[Divine Porcupine!]

note that cannons galleons out range bombard cannons by 2-3 and can one shot them because of their bonus to siege. so massing up bombard cannons doesn't work. and assume they control the entire coastline so you can't build any docks.

since enhancing trebs probably would destroy the game. one other option is possibly lower their anti-siege bonus to 30 (from 40) so bombard cannons will live with 5 hp and can land some shots, im fine with trading if units if it works. elite cannon galleons would still be able to one shot all other siege unit except some celt siege which they can't already. and maybe make the elite cannon galleon range 14 (down from 15) and when upgraded the elite verion moves a tad slower. this would be slightest nerf that would make it possible to counter spanish galleons wtih other cannons. not game breaking.

[TheBattler]

i dont want crap about not letting them get that strong. i like team games where you can't always crush your enemy in the first 10-20mins.

You shouldn't be able to crush your opponents in 40 minutes in a team game water map, let along lose control of the water that badly.

20 Cannon Galleons cost 4000 Wood and 3000 G, besides the research cost needed to get there, 1025 Wood, 400 Food, and 500 Gold, not to mention all the resources spent all game fighting a naval battle.

[Divine Porcupine!]

my point was more so that some people expect me to maintain water domination from the start which you cant alway do. often i can keep about even in water fights (playing as portugese or koreans) but once the spanish manage to snipe way my docks in the end game and take the whole shoreline i dont have much i can do to stop them. compaired to every other civ that has normal cannon galleons where bombard cannons & siege onagars can take care of them.

[Wafflesaurus Supreme]

The land counter is to destroy the enemy docks to stop the production of cannon galleons. Going after sources of wood and gold is another land counter. Use whichever units you like.

[the cup]

Turkish bombard cannons? Maybe longbowmen can also be decent in forcing them to be far away, so they can only shoot the most near buildings to the shoreline.

[Xinnobun]

I've played a great number of water maps and from my experience, the best land counter to those cannon galleons are bombard cannons. Trebuchets hit really hard but they are inaccurate and slow. Also trebs need to be immobilized to attack which makes them a really easy target for bombard galleons.

Btw, if the game gets chaotic and they are unable to pay alot of attention to their cannon galleons, you can use a handful of monks to convert them and turn the tides.

My general solution? I normally construct buildings away from the coast and focus mainly on attacking via land. That way, the opponent wasted a lot of resources massing the galleons meanwhile I'm going downtown on their main base.

[Divine Porcupine!]

haha i totally forgot about using monks they can have up to 12 range and have perfect accuracy. aztec, slav, or spanish munks probably work best as they all have monks that cant be one shoted. spanish also move + convert faster. they are also cheaper than bombard cannons. i am so going to test it out if i get into this position again.

if it's not effective i'm still going to push for my earlier position of spanish galleons needed to 2 shot all bombard cannons. turks one can take 2 hits and is still out ranged by 1 (instead of 2-3). i personsonlly hate playing as turks though as they have the worst trash units & onagers.

[Divine Porcupine!]

basically switch cannon galleons attack type from melee to pierce. if you did that rams would be taken out in under 7 hits (instead of 2-3) with its current bonus of 40 against siege. however that would destroy their attack against other ships which have high pierce armor (around 8) so it's attack to other ship would go from 45 to 37. that's to big of a nerf for my taste. i do love spanish galleon believe it or not. i just want to fight back against them if i loose the water/coast.

[Shade-O]

If it's PogChamp islands , for some reason infantry have bonus attack against ships so swarming pikes/halbs can deter the ships temporarily untill you got a navy going.

And if it's a water map then you're suppose to take control of the waters before cannon galleons kicks in , Spanish doesn't have any exceptional tools on water besides the cannon galleon and blacksmith discount. Not exactly a map where you suppose to focus on land units to begin with.

Those ships does require some commitment to field early (researching balistics , chemistry & elite cannon galleons) and during early imperial age it might be your best chance to strike. Last desperate attempt is going for a land raid to delay the deployment of those cannon galleons.
Special mention goes to the Chinese Chu-Ko-Nu who can shred Ships if those are caught off-guard.

[Prosecutor Lurker]

Originally posted by Sapphire Divination:

If it's PogChamp islands ,

???
How dare u PogChamp here Kappa

[Shade-O]

Originally posted by Prosecutor Lurker#nihilo-satanis:

Originally posted by Sapphire Divination:

If it's PogChamp islands ,

???
How dare u PogChamp here Kappa

BibleThump

[Divine Porcupine!]

Originally posted by Sapphire Divination:

If it's PogChamp islands , for some reason infantry have bonus attack against ships so swarming pikes/halbs can deter the ships temporarily untill you got a navy going.

And if it's a water map then you're suppose to take control of the waters before cannon galleons kicks in , Spanish doesn't have any exceptional tools on water besides the cannon galleon and blacksmith discount. Not exactly a map where you suppose to focus on land units to begin with.

Those ships does require some commitment to field early (researching balistics , chemistry & elite cannon galleons) and during early imperial age it might be your best chance to strike. Last desperate attempt is going for a land raid to delay the deployment of those cannon galleons.
Special mention goes to the Chinese Chu-Ko-Nu who can shred Ships if those are caught off-guard.

as i mention earlier this is usually team play where it's a problem. i tend to keep about even on the water with my enemy till then game where the spanish then snipe away my docks. and yes Chu-Ko-Nu are awesome! but they dont have the range needed to take out spanish galleons.