Germans not equal to teutons

[Paillan]

Hello everyone! my name is Paillan and I consider myself a veteran AoE 2 player (have been playing since the original game, so AoE 1), but not so much a good player, rather an averange player and a fan of history.
As a fan of history I always found weird that the teutons are supposed to represent the whole of germany, when in reality the teutons are more of a mix bag of people, considering their monastic order implications.
That's why I am here to suggest to add a germanic civilization, not to replace the teutons, but to more acurrately represent germanic people. I am pretty sure this has been suggested before, but I hope you at least read my ideas :)
So, germanic civ. What does germania (let's use feudal terms) stand for? the first thing that come to mind to me are two things, constant warfare against the romans, huns, goths as well as the use of terrain, mostly, forests. So here I present you with my germanic civ, taking all that ideas into account.
Germanic civ
Infantry and siege civilization
Team bonus:
Units in shallow water and it's equivalents move 20% faster (also applies to ice)
The idea here is that germans were very proficient at crossing rivers and forcing their enemies into river battles to turn battles in their favour. A damage bonus or attack speed bonus might also be an option. Maybe a better bonus could also be considered.
Civ bonuses:
Units gain +1/+1 to melee armor and pierce armor when fighting in the line of sight of your buildings. Infantry and siege also gain 20% attack speed bonus.
The idea here is that germanic tribes would often fight even more fearsome when the enemies were at the "gates" of their villages. An extra bonus for infantry an siege might be too much, but the main idea is that they are an infantry and siege civ.
Siege units (including trebuchet) are afected by infantry blacksmith upgrades.
applies to rams, scorpions, catapults and trebuchet. Does not apply to bombard cannons, as they are gunpower units.
Can build bastions from the dark age: lumber replacement of castle. Has half the HP, deals less damage, fires less arrows and has the same cost, but in lumber, allows to train the unique unit from the start of the game. This might be very OP, but I doubt that anyone would start using this before feudal age, because of the gold cost implied. Can be upgraded into proper castles paying 60% of the stone cost, taking about half the time to finish. Bastions can only train the unique unit and cannot research any castle tech.
Unique unit:
Germanic warrior: stronger version of the champion. More HP, more damage, more gold cost and food cost. Gains +1/+1 melee and pierce armor when nearby trees. Deals cleave damage (this means that if 8 units are around it, the unit that he is hitting and the 2 right beside that unit take FULL damage. The 2 units at his side take 1/2 or 1/3 damage and the rest of the units around take no damage. something like this 1|1|1
1/2|x|1/2
0|0|0)
The elite version should also have more damage, more HP and attack speed.
Unique techs:
If only normal expasions:
Germanic tactics: all infantry and siege units are affected by the bonus melee and pierce armor that germanic and elite germanic warrios get when nearby trees.
If african kingdooms:
Imperial unique tech:
Free imperial cities: for each town center past 1 you gain 7 gold per minute (stacks up to 7 extra town centers, so you need to have 8 to get 49 gold per minute) That may be too much gold in passive form, but it can of course be lowered.
Now the tech tree, I will try to be brief and simple here, as making it without an image takes time. I will make the image later. Basically they should get all infantry (except eagle warrios of course), no arbalest, no heavy cav. archer, no ring archer armor, no parthian tactics, no hand cannoner, no bombard cannon, no bombard tower, no keep, no siege ram, no camels (of course), no paladin, no plate barding armor, no dry dock, no shipwright, no heavy demo, no fast fire, no cannon galley, no herbal medicine, no fortified walls, no heated shot, no stone shaft mining and no heresy. Of course this is all acording to my perspective, so I am quite open to hear ideas.
So their strategy. Using your bonus you can either be quite defensive and boom (considering your villagers also will have +1/+1 all the time for being bearby buildings) and that bastions are quite a large adventage over other players in terms of map control and defense. You can also use this the other way around and to a bastion drop plus some towers and then upgrade the bastion to get full effect, but nothing stops you from going with archers and knights, tough you will be missing some tech. Once you advance you can make good use of forests and trees (so taking germanic tactics is critical) as even one tree can give the bonus to an entire infantry and siege battalion, and mixing there some support buildings like towers and castles or even outposts you can easily buff all your units to become extremely durable. Overall I think they are very good at soacking damage and dealing damage, but that doesn't mean they are invinsible, I would say they would suffer a lot agaisnt hand cannoners and civs with similar heavy anti infantry, which is why they also have siege with them, too help out.
So what do you think? should Germans be added to the game? do you like this ideas? I am keen to see your answers.
And don't worry you teutons fans, there's no need to delete teutons perse :)

[Paillan]

Franks are not germans... franks are well, French people. They may have a germanic root, but they don't represent at all the idea of germany, as we can see their focus is on horses, and while germans had horses, they relied far more in infantry becuase of terrain (forests and rivers are difficult too cross for horses, not to mention german climate made horses slow but strong).
Vikings, really? I think you are completely wrong here. Vikings have absolutely nothing to do with germany. Vikings represent Scandinavia, that's absolutely obvious.
Goths is a though call. They came from germany but before that they came from somewhere else. I agree though that this are the ones that have more in common with germans, although their tactics are completely different. It's not the same if you ask me at least.

[= Chevolga = [Kaiser of Cringe]]

Greetings from Germany

Well, actually Franks are neither only Germans nor only Franks. Franks were something in between. In this Game only Teutons are truly German. They represent the Holy Roman Empire (which included much more than todays Germany) and their Special Units the Teutonic Knights Order (Deutschritterorden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order / https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Orden

Actually Tawm is right. Teutons, Franks, Vikings and Goths are all Germanic. Also Britons are Germanic.
But Franks, Britons, Vikings and Goths are GERMANIC and not GERMAN. There is a big difference. Germans are implemented as the Teutons.

But now to your Idea. It actually sounds interesting. But why the hell should Germans not have herbal medicine xD? Dude, we're livin in da forests xD I actually like the idea. But that's maybe just because I'm from Germany. The Idea with the Bastions sounds also pretty nice but i would place them in Feudal Age. Dark Age would be too unbalanced. Just imagine a dark age Bastion drop next to enemy TC

Messaggio originale di Paillan:

What does germania (let's use feudal terms) stand for?

I can tell you => Best Beer in the World ^^

[Paillan]

I still think that teutons can't be classified as germans. I mean, yeah, most of their members were germans, but they were more close to the papacy than germany and played a by role in all the crusades (including the crusades to Scandinavia, if you want to call them that). They are more of a Baltic civ if you ask me...
As for herbal, that's a joke regarding the fact that proto germans lived in a very tribal society were often people died from the use of the wrong herb. But I agree it makes as much sense as Italians not having heresy. Mostly it was an idea for balance, as german units would have high defense but lowish health and bed healing. But I am open too all ideas.
Yes, I too think bastions are op for dark age, but think. Who would get 900 lumber in dark age, mine gold and get extra food only too drop a bastion? and what kind of player would fall into such a strategy? Personally if I saw a german player I would probably rush feudal age to avoid the chance of this happening. There can be other solutions though.

[= Chevolga = [Kaiser of Cringe]]

Messaggio originale di Paillan:

but they were more close to the papacy than germany and played a by role in all the crusades

Considering the fact that AoE II is supposed to span the time period between 450 and 1500 A.D. there is no problem with that. Until 1500 the Holy Roman Empire was 100% catholic and for a long time the Pope had as much Power in the Realm as the Emperor.

The Teutonic Order was truly very busy with bringing Baltic Pagans Christianity. But they were Germans. They conquered Territory from Baltic Tribes so they could create a own state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order#/media/File:Teutonic_Order_1410.png


And dont forget that the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation existed until 1806 A.D.
The last German Empire was founded in 1871 and thats far beyond the timespan of AoE II xD

[JurgenJuggernaut]

I agree, Vikings, Franks, Teuntons and goths are from the germanic raze branch, britons are mix between celts and germanic people. I believe that the people that made Age of Empires had many bad information or was incomplete by the time. The "viking" name to a civ is also incorrect, grouping three kingdoms in one (Denmark, Norway and Sweeden), and not giving the warrior that they were known for the "houscarl" or "huskarl" and giving it to the Goths, but the Goths is another big topic. As the fact the left the Holy Roman Wmpire off the game, while being a mayor player in medieval Europe.

Besides Franks and "Germans" were once the same under Charlemange, plus they were famous for the knights, which the Franks lack a true unique knight unit, paladin to my opinion should be restricted to the franks and germans as a unique unit, dont take me wrong, spanish had his cavallery too, but they should as well have a true unique unit, besides the "conquistador" that resembles a unit of the 15-16 century.

And the teutonic order without the holy roman empire, to my opinion is like putting the templar order instead of the franks or the hospitaliers instead of other civ. to my humble opinion the devs should put a unique unit for each faction that represents each period of time, High medieval, Low medieval and renaissance.

[TheBattler]

So, germanic civ. What does germania (let's use feudal terms) stand for? the first thing that come to mind to me are two things, constant warfare against the romans, huns, goths as well as the use of terrain, mostly, forests. So here I present you with my germanic civ, taking all that ideas into account.

Your entire Germanic civ is about early Germanic tribes and mostly neglects the rest of German history. The Goths are supposed to represent early Germanic tribes already, and your tech tree resembles the Gothic one.

and while germans had horses, they relied far more in infantry becuase of terrain (forests and rivers are difficult too cross for horses, not to mention german climate made horses slow but strong).

Your civ emphasis on Infantry is unnecessary, as the Teutons already have full Infantry and they have an Infantry UU.

Even if we ignore Germany's very strong cavalry resume post-900s (beating the Magyars, Crusades, Condottieri, Compagnies D'Ordnance, Schwarzreiter) and focus only on early German history, the Romans frequently recruited horsemen from Germany. The Goths, Heruli, and Lombards fought mainly with cavalry (unlike AoE2's depiction). Now if we head far, far north, that's where we see less-cavalry inclined Germanic people such as the Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Danes, and Norsemen. However the Teutons aren't supposed to represent those guys.

I still think that teutons can't be classified as germans. I mean, yeah, most of their members were germans, but they were more close to the papacy than germany and played a by role in all the crusades (including the crusades to Scandinavia, if you want to call them that). They are more of a Baltic civ if you ask me...

The civ is not named after the Teutonic Order, and is not supposed to be represented just by the Teutonic Order.

Teuton is an old Latinized version of the word "Deutsche" (which is German for "German") that was used by everybody in medieval times. One of the titles of the Holy Roman Emperor was "Rex Teutonicorum" or "King of Germans." The Teutonic Order is named after the Germans.

While the Teutonic Order was technically a Catholic military order, they also had to take orders from the Holy Roman Emperor. The Emperor told them who they were allowed to conquer and pressed them into service under other German duchies.

[Fireeye]

The Teutons are supposed to be an amalgam of various German (=Deutsch) kingdoms and nations in the same way that the Saracens are an amalgam of various Arab nations, and the Slavs represent a wide variety of Slavic nations that may have a radicaly different cultural background.

Gameplay > History

[= Chevolga = [Kaiser of Cringe]]

Messaggio originale di Fireeye:

The Teutons are supposed to be an amalgam of various German (=Deutsch) kingdoms and nations

Agreed - But if you wanna translate "German kingdoms and nations" it has to be "DeutschE Königreiche und Nationen."


Let me throw another Idea into this whole German AoE II Thing
The Italians grant their Team the possibility to produce Condottieri, the stereotype of Italian Mercenarys, inside their Barracks
I think it would be awesome if the Teutons could grant their Team a similar Bonus with the stereotypical German Mercenary Unit, the Landsknecht (There is actually no english Translation for that - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht )

What do you think about that?

[Abstract]

This is hardly a problem with just Germans. There are literally dozens of civilizations that are being represented by an umbrella civ. The Saracens, the Chinese, the Slavs, and even the Indians are all umbrella civs that can be further subdivided to be more representative - if anything, European civs are much more represented than non-European ones.

(I don't even know why the Saracens are called "Saracens" but that's a discussion for another day)

[kud13]

Messaggio originale di Abstract:

This is hardly a problem with just Germans. There are literally dozens of civilizations that are being represented by an umbrella civ. The Saracens, the Chinese, the Slavs, and even the Indians are all umbrella civs that can be further subdivided to be more representative - if anything, European civs are much more represented than non-European ones.

(I don't even know why the Saracens are called "Saracens" but that's a discussion for another day)

Because ES was trying to capitalize on the recognition factor for Saladin, probably.

[B8B3B]

Messaggio originale di Tawm:

They weren't aiming for Teutonic Order alone. "Regnum Teutonicum" or East Francia that the game history file refers to. The Teutons and Franks are actually very redundant as a civilization. Teutons are just one take on the civilization of Germans in addition to the other 3 that are present.

Messaggio originale di TheBattler:

Teuton is an old Latinized version of the word "Deutsche" (which is German for "German") that was used by everybody in medieval times. One of the titles of the Holy Roman Emperor was "Rex Teutonicorum" or "King of Germans." The Teutonic Order is named after the Germans.

this.

[Dynast]

Why are people getting offended about a game that takes place 500+ years ago?

[Prosecutor Lurker]

I'm not up to join the discussion, but I can smell the german representation from teutons and goths a mile away. You can't just add another civ because these 2 civs missed one or two things that are considered too or less german.

[Hezekieh]

On a sidenote, Teutonic Knights could use some more melee armour. They're so usless for everything else, they should at least be better at what they're good at.

[= Chevolga = [Kaiser of Cringe]]

Messaggio originale di Dynast:

Why are people getting offended about a game that takes place 500+ years ago?

I dont see anybody offended or raging xD
We're just havin a more historical and less AoE discussion xD

Messaggio originale di Prosecutor Luker#nihilo-satanis:

You can't just add another civ because these 2 civs missed one or two things that are considered too or less german.

Well I'm from Germany and I consider both civs just as perfect as they are now :3

Messaggio originale di Prosecutor Luker#nihilo-satanis:

but I can smell the german representation from teutons and goths a mile away.

Holza!