Elite Condottiero

[Neil]

The condottiero is a pretty cool unit both visually and conceptually. I think it’d be amazing if this unit had an elite upgrade, similar to the second scenario of the Sforza campaign.

Possible stats for the elite: HP: 96, Attack: 12, Armor: 1/1

I think this would make the unit more usable in general as a champion replacement while still giving the cool anti-gunpowder bonus. Personally, I’d prefer an elite upgrade over the allied use ability.

[The Very Hungry Caterpillar]

Condotierro is absolutely broken in its current form. A Free champion-esque unit upon reaching imperial is an extremely strong powerspike. Early imperial does not give civs enough time to properly prepare for this unit. (Akin to eagles but much, much worse.) It needs a much weaker version along with an Elite that has the exact same stats as it does currently. Ideally it should require the champion tech to turn elite as it gives civs without access to champions a slightly stronger champion esque unit. The persians have poor infantry alone but amazing infantry with access to an italian ally.

Edit: Viking fast imperial with an italian ally is incredibly strong. While researching Elite condotierro would slow down their rush, 115 hp is extremely high. I feel this would be much more difficult to deal with.

[Neil]

Originally posted by Dreamscape:

A Free champion-esque unit upon reaching imperial is an extremely strong powerspike. Early imperial does not give civs enough time to properly prepare for this unit. (Akin to eagles but much, much worse.) It needs a much weaker version along with an Elite that has the exact same stats as it does currently.

I wouldn’t mind the default condottiero being weaker, that’s a solid point. Especially, since The Italians are a tech-heavy civ that should peak in the late imperial. However, I think the elite would need to be stronger than it’s current stats, to be worth the research cost and to make it viable in later imperial. Right now, it has a 35 gold cost compared to the champion’s 20, so I think it would make sense for it’s stats to reflect that with the elite upgrade.

[The Very Hungry Caterpillar]

Originally posted by Neil:

Originally posted by Dreamscape:

A Free champion-esque unit upon reaching imperial is an extremely strong powerspike. Early imperial does not give civs enough time to properly prepare for this unit. (Akin to eagles but much, much worse.) It needs a much weaker version along with an Elite that has the exact same stats as it does currently.

I wouldn’t mind the default condottiero being weaker, that’s a solid point. Especially, since The Italians are a tech-heavy civ that should peak in the late imperial. However, I think the elite would need to be stronger than it’s current stats, to be worth the research cost and to make it viable in later imperial. Right now, it has a 35 gold cost compared to the champion’s 20, so I think it would make sense for it’s stats to reflect that with the elite upgrade.

Condotierro do have a few advantages over champions currently lategame. I am only including stats that are higher for the condotierro as I don't have time for a full chart.

Stats

Condotierro

Champion

HP

80

70

Speed

1.2 (1.32 with squires.)

0.9 (1.00 with squires.)

Rate of Fire

1.93

2.03

Line of sight

7

6

Attack vs Gunpowder

+10

+0

Anti-Infantry damage resistance

10

0

If you wan't to make condotierro viable late game an hp boost would definitely help accomplish that. Unfortunately for higher level team games the condotierro has to compete with Paladins. As it stands Infantry will simply never be able to compete with Paladins late game. It would be much easier to nerf Paladins directly (Which makes trash stronger and thus champions/infantry and in turn arbalests.) Unfortunately most balance patch developers/forgotten empires will likely never attempt to nerf Paladins. AFAIK only X-Patch on Voobly has attempted to nerf Paladins late game. (Which X-P attempts to accomplish with the trade nerf.)

I could only see condotierro in its current form being viable/dominant late game in Age of Kings before trade was buffed with Trade Caravan in the Conquerors expansion. Aside from drastic changes to trade/Paladins I don't think the Condotierro could be fully viable lategame.

[Neil]

Originally posted by Dreamscape:

Originally posted by Neil:

If you wan't to make condotierro viable late game an hp boost would definitely help accomplish that. Unfortunately for higher level team games...

Yeah, I love this game for the constant balancing. As it stands, pretty much every unit gets an upgrade. This helps keep units viable at every age. If a unit doesn't have an upgrade then there's a smaller window of time that it makes sense to use it. I think all UUs should be viable in Castle thru game end and an elite upgrade for the condottieri would definitely help with that.

[NIKFS]

hmm how about a weakened condotierro in castle age, then a researchable condotierro in imp and elite condotierro if you have condotierro researched and champions researched? would fix the powerspike, and would give civs with champions access to elite condotierros as well (btw do italians have champions?)

[The Very Hungry Caterpillar]

Originally posted by Neil:

Originally posted by Dreamscape:

Yeah, I love this game for the constant balancing. As it stands, pretty much every unit gets an upgrade. This helps keep units viable at every age. If a unit doesn't have an upgrade then there's a smaller window of time that it makes sense to use it. I think all UUs should be viable in Castle thru game end and an elite upgrade for the condottieri would definitely help with that.

DREAMSCAPE TYPED THIS BUT THE FORMATTING IS BUGGED!

This makes total sense. Unique units are a core part of a civs identity and direct nerfs are poorly recieved. Do you enjoy/follow game balance/design? I am rather impressed by the quality of your post. Keep this up and you could have a major role in age of empires 2's future!

Off-topic but the weird formatting of your post (And this one) is a steam forum bug related to quoting. I don't know of any ways to prevent it unfortunately.

Originally posted by Tawm:

The unit is entirely unnecessary as it is and should be removed from the game for the sake of balance. Proposing a stronger one is ridiculous

DREAMSCAPE TYPED THIS BUT THE FORMATTING IS BUGGED!

Yeah, Unique Units as a team bonus was a really poor design choice on Forgotten Empires part. They are absolutely a balancing nightmare. I personally am not a fan of removing/heavily modifying content but I see a huge merit to changing the Italians team bonus.

[The Very Hungry Caterpillar]

Originally posted by NIK_F_S:

hmm how about a weakened condotierro in castle age, then a researchable condotierro in imp and elite condotierro if you have condotierro researched and champions researched? would fix the powerspike, and would give civs with champions access to elite condotierros as well (btw do italians have champions?)

Yes, Italians have access to fully upgraded champions. The only infantry they miss out on are Halberdier's and the Eagle line.

[NIKFS]

Originally posted by Dreamscape:

Originally posted by NIK_F_S:

hmm how about a weakened condotierro in castle age, then a researchable condotierro in imp and elite condotierro if you have condotierro researched and champions researched? would fix the powerspike, and would give civs with champions access to elite condotierros as well (btw do italians have champions?)

Yes, Italians have access to fully upgraded champions. The only infantry they miss out on are Halberdier's and the Eagle line.

Well, then my plan would work i guess^^ taking away the powerspike, but instead adding in a unit in castle age to deal with either turkish janissaries or imperial gunpowderunits if its a teamgame and you lag behind a bit

[Neil]

Originally posted by Dreamscape:

Originally posted by Neil:

This makes total sense. Unique units are a core part of a civs identity and direct nerfs are poorly recieved. Do you enjoy/follow game balance/design? I am rather impressed by the quality of your post. Keep this up and you could have a major role in age of empires 2's future!

Off-topic but the weird formatting of your post (And this one) is a steam forum bug related to quoting. I don't know of any ways to prevent it unfortunately.

Thanks for the kind words and for the discussion! I really enjoy all the balancing (math) of game design. I'm not sure about the weird formatting, I'm new to the forums.

[Lord Puddington]

The point is, the Condottiero is meant to represent and italian mercenary available to the highest bidder. Not that the unit isn't broken, especially now the italians are stronger thus show up more often, but it should be 1. Powerful 2. Quickly available 3. Very expensive. You can rush with some, but more than that it should damage your eco.

[The Sagaris]

The current condo is already strong enough. I personally consider that in the hand of certain civs, condo in Castle Age is already an OP unit because what's usually effective against infantry are less effective against them, thanks to their speed & bonus armor.

[NIKFS]

Originally posted by ScarMilia:

The current condo is already strong enough. I personally consider that in the hand of certain civs, condo in Castle Age is already an OP unit because what's usually effective against infantry are less effective against them, thanks to their speed & bonus armor.

Yeah,mthe castle age version would of course need a serious nerf to being a sidegrade of a longswordsmen, not the current stats of course, that would be op