Is it possible that P is not actually Pinocchio? (SPOILERS)

[mayhem523]

I saw a video last night that theorized that P is not Pinocchio, but is actually the tin man from wizard of Oz. I thought it was an interesting theory but didn't think much of it.

Then today on a ng+ playthrough I interacted with the book on the shelf in the piano room and got this dialogue...

"Have you ever heard the fairy tale about a mischievous wooden puppet. All of Krat knows that story, all because of someone loved that story more than anyone else. It's strange, I do not recall who exactly was that someone?"

Why would the Pinocchio fairy tale exist within the fair tale universe? Why does nobody ever call P Pinocchio? Why doesn't P's nose grow when he lies (the portrait doesn't count, it's carlo anyway)? It has me wondering if Gepetto might have been inspired by the fairy tale and just adopted some names and themes from it.

Are there any other indications, aside from the entire game having almost nothing to do with anything that happens in the fairy tale as far as I recall, that would indicate P is not actually Pinocchio?

Here's the video
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HBQOJAheV4U

[Krazy Wallet]

A name is precious. A name is beautiful. Don't forget your name or you'll forget your identity - and apparently attack anything that approaches you

[SadPlatty©]

So - you do technically figure that out. spoiler alert for whoever hadn't heard the name Carlo - only saying this once.



So basically - you are not exactly named "Pinocchio", you are Carlo from the "before times". Gepetto is then actually not just a Workshop Engineer, but a powerful Alchemist who was probably just as powerful as Simon, but more cool-headed/collected.

Additionally - Giangio played a roll, as one of the notes (think in the woods) mentioned him loosing his cool, and he was well aware to tell you he was a "Doctor" vs "Alchemist" (plus the ending snippet).

A number of NPCs also die saying "I wish I could go back - to before the puppets"; which leads me to think :
- Krat was a nice town; Gepetto and Carlo where living their best lives with everyone else
- Someone killed Carlo/Pinocchio (maybe Giangio or someone from the Alchemist group)
- Gepetto snaps; he begins production of his puppets
- This is where Ergo comes into play, as well as Venigni; though I imagine Gepetto hid his work with Alchemy and his relationship with Simon
- Notes mentioned that this started with 3 puppets - we are one, Romeo is 2, but who is number 3?
- Things continue as they do - all the while Gepetto is waiting for the perfect storm; he needs those things to re-animate Carlo
- Gepetto likely has contact with Giongio or someone else from the greater Alchemists group , hence he knows what he does, and was likely working with them on "Reanimation"/"Eternal Life" through his work with Carlo.
- Simon loses his mind, as he thinks this is to help all humanity; but Gepetto only cares about his son; kicks off the Puppet Revolution as he knows Simon will become an immediate threat

Basically - I don't think Gepetto was trying to be evil, but he knew a day would come where his power was tested. Rule 0 was a "precaution" to deal with any/all loose ends. Blue Fairy never speaks poorly of Gepetto either, only Simon - hence he would have been the one to discover Ergo I think as well.

Then in the outro - we are the new "Brother" that Giangio found to help; except, maybe that was the wrong use of Ergo for eternal life, as it was easily corruptable.

Edit : Do remember - Giangio also appears to have the book of "Wizard of Oz" in the outro; it is likely that they where created by the alchemists based off the books, so their story could play out into the end, where the ultimate powers reside (like the Ruby Slippers finally being explained to Dorothy - or Pinocchio finally being a real boy).

We also see server rooms in the final chapter - so present day Technology does exist too most likely.

[HypetheKomodo]

I mean the Puppet isn't ever named. It's just Gepp's Puppet.

The pure reason it was made was to reanimate Carlo. Gepp probably didn't anticipate removing the restrictions of the Grand Contract would cause the Puppet to start developing a will of it's own.

[mayhem523]

Messaggio originale di SadPlatty©:

So basically - you are not exactly named "Pinocchio", you are Carlo from the "before times". Gepetto is then actually not just a Workshop Engineer, but a powerful Alchemist who was probably just as powerful as Simon, but more cool-headed/collected.

I never considered the player character to be Carlo (unless you choose a particular ending, anyway). Carlo is Geppetto's real son that died, P is just a puppet Geppetto created in order to create a heart that he could use to revive his dead son, and was never intended to be his replacement. That was my understanding, anyway.

[Poptart]

If we're going into pure spoiler discussion, Lies of P doesn't have to reference Pinocchio.

It could be as simple as 'Lies of Puppets', as the game has a focus towards discovering the truth behind more than the Puppet Frenzy --- it goes to the truth behind the puppet's themselves. ( Some speculate the reference to Philippus Paracelsus as well. )

It would also bring to question -- is it lying that grants you the ability to be more human, or is it the ability to defy the Grand Covenant thus possessing free will.

The portrait counts. Gepetto references the portrait was commissioned by an artist called D. Grey. This is in reference to the Portrait of Dorian Gray in which the portrait portray's Dorian's soul ( although the artist in that tale is Basil Hallward, but regardless most people know that tale by Dorian stabbing the painting and being found dead with a knife in his chest ). So the nose growing on the Portrait is the reference to Carlo being Pinocchio.

[SadPlatty©]

Messaggio originale di mayhem523:

I never considered the player character to be Carlo (unless you choose a particular ending, anyway). Carlo is Geppetto's real son that died, P is just a puppet Geppetto created in order to create a heart that he could use to revive his dead son, and was never intended to be his replacement. That was my understanding, anyway.

And that I think depends on the ending you get. There is the "Give your heart" ending, where Gepetto takes it from you, and uses that to reincarnate Carol - however there is the "Rise of P" ending, where you deny him this privilege.

When you deny him however - he during the fight mentions "You woke up with his emotions, not his memories"; hence Carlo was also a bit of a handful with lying and sneaky behavior.

Because you are a puppet throughout - you are playing as "Pinocchio", the embodiment of Carlos emotions. When you then refuse Gepetto, you are essentially saying "No; I have fully awakened my Ego - and I am not your son anymore, I am 'me'" which was a theme Arelcchino and some others touch on (Are you a puppet/slave to someone, or are you a human who is free to make their own choices?)

But otherwise - Ergo is crystalized memories and stuff; effectively like they captured human souls in a gem that is then used to power the puppets. Them awakening would be like you then suddenly waking up one morning in the middle of town, and you look down to notice you are a robot. You might not gain your full self though.

Romeo for example in that audio codex thing does mention that he remembers you as Carlo from before everything, so at least he knows what was happening. Another reason Gepetto needed the puppet frenzy (an excuse to kill Romeo and re-hide the truth).

[Rodi]

Messaggio originale di SadPlatty©:

- Krat was a nice town; Gepetto and Carlo where living their best lives with everyone else

Not really, Gepetto was a horrible father and couldn't care less about Carlo because he was always "too busy". Carlo really resented Gepetto because of this. This is made clear when we arrive at the Alchemist's Isle and see those memories on the sand.
We can deduce that Gepetto felt a lot of remorse for being an absent father after Carlo's death and decided to do all that crazy stuff to bring Carlo back and do things differently.

[SadPlatty©]

Messaggio originale di Rodi:

Not really, Gepetto was a horrible father and couldn't care less about Carlo because he was always "too busy". Carlo really resented Gepetto because of this. This is made clear when we arrive at the Alchemist's Isle and see those memories on the sand.
We can deduce that Gepetto felt a lot of remorse for being an absent father after Carlo's death and decided to do all that crazy stuff to bring Carlo back and do things differently.

True - forgot about the memories in the Black Sand area. Though - to the first part, I feel like that is almost a relatable story. Certainly not "best lives", and "being too busy for your child" seems like a common struggle amoungst a large group of people (hell, that was what I got as a kid from my father from time to time - but he had to work, mom was stay at home).

This does also make the 2 choices with Gepetto a bit more meaningful too "Was I always a good/trustworthy Father" is obviously no, which "Yes" is the lie here (albeit a white lie maybe, like the one for the old lady). Then the final question to give the heart is truly his nature - whatever it takes, I will have "my" son back. But too bad Carlo died and so we are "ourself", and not him per-say.

I think of it like a clone; if you where cloned, that is "you" but not the "you " that you currently are; regardless of anything else you are 2 separate consciousnesses.

[Frank Lapidus]

i have two answers for you:
-P was #2 and Romeo was #3. The end boss if you dont give up your heart was puppet #1. when you kill the nameless puppet, the achievement name is "The First Puppet" which judging by the achievement names of other bosses, shows who it is.
-carlo was killed on a mission for the stalkers, evidenced by a flashback running up to the gate keeper boss

[Ocean Echo]

There is no need to try to perceive this game as a direct remake of the tale of Pinocchio. Instead, it is a mix-plagiarism (which, for the sake of beauty, is called the phrase “we were inspired by”). In the same way, Bioshock Infinite was a plagiarism of tales of Brothers Grimm, Hoffmann, and about the dragon and the princess in tower, etc.
It's just that we live in an era where authors have either exhausted all the ideas or don't want to come up with them anymore because they need to get to the long bux quickly. So it may or may not be Pinocchio, it doesn't matter at all. He's not wooden and doesn't live in the original setting, which is why I refused to take this game seriously from the very beginning. It's not real art, it's plagiarism, generic secondary content.

[SteelaiRizel]

Messaggio originale di Ocean Echo:

There is no need to try to perceive this game as a direct remake of the tale of Pinocchio. Instead, it is a mix-plagiarism (which, for the sake of beauty, is called the phrase “we were inspired by”). In the same way, Bioshock Infinite was a plagiarism of tales of Brothers Grimm, Hoffmann, and about the dragon and the princess in tower, etc.
It's just that we live in an era where authors have either exhausted all the ideas or don't want to come up with them anymore because they need to get to the long bux quickly. So it may or may not be Pinocchio, it doesn't matter at all. He's not wooden and doesn't live in the original setting, which is why I refused to take this game seriously from the very beginning. It's not real art, it's plagiarism, generic secondary content.

"It's not real art"

Well way to let people know not to take you seriously at all.

Also as it's an open property...it wouldn't qualify as plagiarism btw...just to be clear.

[Malarraenaepcaleac'h]

Messaggio originale di Ocean Echo:

There is no need to try to perceive this game as a direct remake of the tale of Pinocchio. Instead, it is a mix-plagiarism (which, for the sake of beauty, is called the phrase “we were inspired by”). In the same way, Bioshock Infinite was a plagiarism of tales of Brothers Grimm, Hoffmann, and about the dragon and the princess in tower, etc.
It's just that we live in an era where authors have either exhausted all the ideas or don't want to come up with them anymore because they need to get to the long bux quickly. So it may or may not be Pinocchio, it doesn't matter at all. He's not wooden and doesn't live in the original setting, which is why I refused to take this game seriously from the very beginning. It's not real art, it's plagiarism, generic secondary content.

Anyone who graduated and studied literary sciences will laugh at your inferior statements

[Tim]

SPOILERS: As I see it, the P referring to Pinocchio is a red herring. The P's for Paracelsus, the true identity of Giangio, and an immortal man. I can't tell if he was merely an observer or ushered along the events of the game, but he was there to scout out/encourage the production of another immortal.

And to Ocean Echo: Lies of P doesn't have a particular smart or deep story, and it's basically Dark Souls and Pinocchio smooshed together, but it does one interesting thing: it rejects the morals of the original Pinocchio story. Being a "good boy," never lying, never acting in self interest is rejecting your humanity. And with whole Puppet Frenzy resulting from a glitch in this game's fantasy industrial revolution, it's a clever counterpoint to the context Pinocchio was written in, trying to get kids obedient and work-loving for an industrious, unified Italy.

I don't think the story is, like, textually any good, but it's gesturing at something. And the Adventures of Pinocchio takes plenty from fairytales before it in the first place. We're all just upcycling what came before.

Anyway, half of the Adventures of Pinocchio was written after it already concluded so it could be better hocked to kids (he died by hanging in the original run), so it's not like the Adventures of Pinocchio is some non-commercial, fringe, pure artistry elemental. You'd be hard pressed to find anything meeting an artistic purity standard that more than a couple thousand people know about.

[Breath of The Wild Ass]

He's "Poopy-Woopy."

The Lies of Poop-Woopy

[Ocean Echo]

Messaggio originale di SteelaiRizel:

Also as it's an open property...it wouldn't qualify as plagiarism btw...just to be clear.

it wouldn't qualify as one but it will still BE plagiarism. I never tire of being amazed at the extent to which your Western people's concepts have been replaced. All you care about is whether they will drag you to court, and if they don’t, then you can do everything. But I wasn't talking about the legal quagmire, right? I spoke about the truth. This game is just a plagiarism, that's it. Someone other's tale, someone other's genre and someone other's entourage.

Messaggio originale di Malrarraenaepcaleac'h:

Anyone who graduated and studied literary sciences will laugh at your inferior statements

But why I don't see laugh? I see fanboy's butthurt only.
Here is an advice how not to get such criticism - try to make or at least support some ORIGINAL game or story. And there will be no problem.