Why do people like the Godfrey/Hoarah Loux fight again?

[Nubi, Toa of Gaming]

This boss sucks.

Yes, when using a Mimic Tear or another spirit summon he is a piece of cake, but have you tried fighting him completely solo?

This is the only boss in the game that REQUIRES you to jump during the fight as dodge-rolling is way too punishable.

The problem is, no other boss in the game requires you to jump to fight them, all of their attacks are dodgeable or blockable.

If the game had gradually introduced jumping mid-fight as a necessity from early on, it wouldn't be a problem, but the way it's done here is just plain retarded, not to mention the awkward timing of these attacks.

"bUt BuT.. mUh ChAdFrEy!!!"

♥♥♥♥ you.

[Nubi, Toa of Gaming]

Escrito originalmente por Lucifer_:

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Ah, the beautiful Elden Ring community at its finest. I'm surprised it took so long till we got to the "git gud" comment

Ikr. Elden ring community needs to git gud

"Git gud" is the favorite phrase of fanboys who think them simping for a game company makes them tough guys somehow. It's kinda cute, in a way

[Nubi, Toa of Gaming]

Escrito originalmente por Key:

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Nope, I said in my post that it was highly punishable. Rolling through his attacks is not impossible, but is definitely harder because of how widespread the AoE is. Jumping seems to be the intended way to do it. (But still requires learning the timings of them)

Problem is, not only do I have to learn the timings of his attacks (which have very awkward delay to them), I also need to overpower my instinct to roll (which I have developed over the years playing Fromsoft games) and force myself to jump instead, which, coupled with the tricky timings, means that I fail like 80 or 90 percent of the time.

I don't like saying "Skill issue" but you're kind of forcing my hand with that last statement man.

The tricky timings is what makes the fight fun. He's a roided up hyper aggressive warrior, he dictates the tempo of the fight.

Yeah, he's hard, but he's the penultimate boss, he should be.

He's not hard though...
On my first playthrough of the game I beat him on the first try because I used Mimic Tear.

Me trying to beat him solo now is because I wanted to experience the late-game bosses in the game how they were supposed to be fought (solo, presumably), and, well, it sucks.

Also, you can dismiss any criticism of fromsoft's game design by saying "skill issue". It's not a smart or constructive argument at all. It just outsources the blame from the developers onto the players who dared to complain instead.

[Lucifer_]

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Escrito originalmente por Lucifer_:

Ikr. Elden ring community needs to git gud

"Git gud" is the favorite phrase of fanboys who think them simping for a game company makes them tough guys somehow. It's kinda cute, in a way :lovey:

and crying on forums is the favorite pastime of no skill normies that think a boss is badly designed because they're not good enough to beat it. It's not cute in any way.

[Tao314zdin]

Every time he winds up his AOE attack its like he yells:

"So Tarnished what's that gonna be?:

a) You fat-finger/brain it and get spanked

b) You roll it and avoid damage

c) You use an ash (like QS, BS, etc) and avoid damage

d) You jump and avoid damage and deal damage back"

Now "d" is somewhat preferable, but if you truly dislike it there are still a, b and c.

[Nubi, Toa of Gaming]

Escrito originalmente por Lucifer_:

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

"Git gud" is the favorite phrase of fanboys who think them simping for a game company makes them tough guys somehow. It's kinda cute, in a way

and crying on forums is the favorite pastime of no skill normies that think a boss is badly designed because they're not good enough to beat it. It's not cute in any way.

Better to be a normie than a simp

[Nubi, Toa of Gaming]

Escrito originalmente por Tao314zdin:

Every time he winds up his AOE attack its like he yells:

"So Tarnished what's that gonna be?:

a) You fat-finger/brain it and get spanked

b) You roll it and avoid damage

c) You use an ash (like QS, BS, etc) and avoid damage

d) You jump and avoid damage and deal damage back"

Now "d" is somewhat preferable, but if you truly dislike it there are still a, b and c.

He winds up his attacks for like five seconds, you can do all a, b, c and d, and he will still be winding up right up until the moment you are vulnerable again and then he hits you...

[Agravain]

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Escrito originalmente por Key:

I don't like saying "Skill issue" but you're kind of forcing my hand with that last statement man.

The tricky timings is what makes the fight fun. He's a roided up hyper aggressive warrior, he dictates the tempo of the fight.

Yeah, he's hard, but he's the penultimate boss, he should be.

He's not hard though...
On my first playthrough of the game I beat him on the first try because I used Mimic Tear.

Me trying to beat him solo now is because I wanted to experience the late-game bosses in the game how they were supposed to be fought (solo, presumably), and, well, it sucks.

Also, you can dismiss any criticism of fromsoft's game design by saying "skill issue". It's not a smart or constructive argument at all. It just outsources the blame from the developers onto the players who dared to complain instead.

But it IS a skill issue, that's the whole point of the game, learn the mechanics and bosses move sets and counter with your own practiced skill. For every attack, there is a way to avoid it, go to the boss page of any boss on fextralife and they have a list of every move and how to dodge it. I've never heard of a souls-like game that was fair, because that's the opposite of how the game is mechanically and storywise. Think about it, you (the character) are a literal nobody from nowhere, "A tarnished of no renown", you are rolling up to a land full of monsters, demigods, and eldritch horrors who have been embroiled in conflict for centuries at least. You aren't meant to have an easy go of it, you are meant to "Git gud", that's why it's a souls-like.

[Key]

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Escrito originalmente por Key:

I don't like saying "Skill issue" but you're kind of forcing my hand with that last statement man.

The tricky timings is what makes the fight fun. He's a roided up hyper aggressive warrior, he dictates the tempo of the fight.

Yeah, he's hard, but he's the penultimate boss, he should be.

He's not hard though...
On my first playthrough of the game I beat him on the first try because I used Mimic Tear.

Me trying to beat him solo now is because I wanted to experience the late-game bosses in the game how they were supposed to be fought (solo, presumably), and, well, it sucks.

Also, you can dismiss any criticism of fromsoft's game design by saying "skill issue". It's not a smart or constructive argument at all. It just outsources the blame from the developers onto the players who dared to complain instead.

No, it would be a developer's fault if the fight was broken, but Godfrey is legit one of the fairest bosses in the game. I have criticized the design on many bosses in this game and I will keep doing so.

The thing is you've got it backwards, you are blaming the devs for something you find hard. Because let's be real for a moment, if most of the playerbase finds him fair and you don't, it's time to consider that the boss isn't the problem and you just suck at the game.

Anyhow, I'm done. You just keep moving the goalpost with every reply, it's legit exhausting to try and have a discussion with someone that doesn't want to change their position.

[Tao314zdin]

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Escrito originalmente por Tao314zdin:

Every time he winds up his AOE attack its like he yells:

"So Tarnished what's that gonna be?:

a) You fat-finger/brain it and get spanked

b) You roll it and avoid damage

c) You use an ash (like QS, BS, etc) and avoid damage

d) You jump and avoid damage and deal damage back"

Now "d" is somewhat preferable, but if you truly dislike it there are still a, b and c.

He winds up his attacks for like five seconds, you can do all a, b, c and d, and he will still be winding up right up until the moment you are vulnerable again and then he hits you...

That is only what you do in the moment of truth that counts, for the rest you can just imagine he is not talking too fast and it is a long list of options...

Also, light roll does not give you more i-frames it gives you distance. Light rolls are for kiting not i-framing, for that you can use QS.

[Nubi, Toa of Gaming]

Escrito originalmente por Alpharius:

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

He's not hard though...
On my first playthrough of the game I beat him on the first try because I used Mimic Tear.

Me trying to beat him solo now is because I wanted to experience the late-game bosses in the game how they were supposed to be fought (solo, presumably), and, well, it sucks.

Also, you can dismiss any criticism of fromsoft's game design by saying "skill issue". It's not a smart or constructive argument at all. It just outsources the blame from the developers onto the players who dared to complain instead.

But it IS a skill issue, that's the whole point of the game, learn the mechanics and bosses move sets and counter with your own practiced skill. For every attack, there is a way to avoid it, go to the boss page of any boss on fextralife and they have a list of every move and how to dodge it. I've never heard of a souls-like game that was fair, because that's the opposite of how the game is mechanically and storywise. Think about it, you (the character) are a literal nobody from nowhere, "A tarnished of no renown", you are rolling up to a land full of monsters, demigods, and eldritch horrors who have been embroiled in conflict for centuries at least. You aren't meant to have an easy go of it, you are meant to "Git gud", that's why it's a souls-like.

Dude, the existence of Spirit ashes and OP weapons contradicts that mantra. It may be true for the Dark Souls games (debatably), but it's not true for Elden Ring.

And the problem with the "it's not supposed to be easy" mentality is that you can justify any design choice or a mistake by Fromsoft as a "feature, not a bug". If this was Fromsoft's intent, why did they nerf Radahn? Clearly they do care about bosses providing reasonable amount of challenge to the players. Radahn is an early game fight, which is why he was nerfed. Godfrey is a late game fight, he should be hard, and I agree with that idea overall, but what I don't agree with is the way the player is expected to do it. Requiring the player to jump his attacks could've been done better. You don't even have to change Godfrey himself, just make sure that the previous bosses in the game have attacks that require jumping, that way you introduce the player to this mechanic well and prepare them for the challenge ahead. Yes, these games are supposed to be challenging, but they are also supposed to be a journey up the hill, not just being slammed into a wall and expected to climb it.

[Tao314zdin]

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

You don't even have to change Godfrey himself, just make sure that the previous bosses in the game have attacks that require jumping, that way you introduce the player to this mechanic well and prepare them for the challenge ahead. Yes, these games are supposed to be challenging, but they are also supposed to be a journey up the hill, not just being slammed into a wall and expected to climb it.

Actually on that note, how did you mange to reach end-game and not get accustomed to jumping attacks?

They are some of the strongest attacks in PVE from the standard-moveset (not counting ashes), so did you like Mooweil all the way through to miss on them or you just hate jumping so much that you would not use it in general combat even though it is one of the strongest moves against PVE?

[Lynfinity]

https://youtu.be/YSmhVQPQHWU
Notice the lack of jumping attacks and that not a single stomp clipped through my i-frames (medium load, by the way).

Did I manage to win the "gamble" every single time or is it something entirely different?

[Agravain]

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Escrito originalmente por Alpharius:

But it IS a skill issue, that's the whole point of the game, learn the mechanics and bosses move sets and counter with your own practiced skill. For every attack, there is a way to avoid it, go to the boss page of any boss on fextralife and they have a list of every move and how to dodge it. I've never heard of a souls-like game that was fair, because that's the opposite of how the game is mechanically and storywise. Think about it, you (the character) are a literal nobody from nowhere, "A tarnished of no renown", you are rolling up to a land full of monsters, demigods, and eldritch horrors who have been embroiled in conflict for centuries at least. You aren't meant to have an easy go of it, you are meant to "Git gud", that's why it's a souls-like.

Dude, the existence of Spirit ashes and OP weapons contradicts that mantra. It may be true for the Dark Souls games (debatably), but it's not true for Elden Ring.

And the problem with the "it's not supposed to be easy" mentality is that you can justify any design choice or a mistake by Fromsoft as a "feature, not a bug". If this was Fromsoft's intent, why did they nerf Radahn? Clearly they do care about bosses providing reasonable amount of challenge to the players. Radahn is an early game fight, which is why he was nerfed. Godfrey is a late game fight, he should be hard, and I agree with that idea overall, but what I don't agree with is the way the player is expected to do it. Requiring the player to jump his attacks could've been done better. You don't even have to change Godfrey himself, just make sure that the previous bosses in the game have attacks that require jumping, that way you introduce the player to this mechanic well and prepare them for the challenge ahead. Yes, these games are supposed to be challenging, but they are also supposed to be a journey up the hill, not just being slammed into a wall and expected to climb it.

As a matter of fact, OP weapons and spirit ashes do not contradict that mantra, in fact they adhere to it very nicely, they are tools to be used, and by extension they allow the player to adapt in new ways. Do they make the experience a bit easier? undeniably so, but again, they exist to be used. Additionally, you're complaining about nerfs now, ok, sure, the devs make mistakes, but you're moving the goalposts here. your original post made no mention of mistakes by the devs, it's a long complaint about jumping. Again, I will reiterate, for every attack there is a way to avoid it, jumping in this case, you're complaining about the tool of being able to jump.
"Yes, these games are supposed to be challenging, but they are also supposed to be a journey up the hill, not just being slammed into a wall and expected to climb it". This is a distinction without a difference, they are one and the same, that being throwing you into the deep end and expecting you to figure out how to swim.

It's not fair, and that is the point, as I mentioned above. It's a souls like, and therefore meant to be difficult and unreasonable in what it asks of you. so yes, unfortunately your options are 1: Quit, or 2: Get Gud. I hope you get good and then beat the boss brosef, have a good one.

[Lord Bob]

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

Escrito originalmente por Lord Bob:

Well, it's specificly tailored to your complaint, so let me elaborate.

You complain about being forced to learn a certain game mechanic, when in reality, you have more options than jumping. As suggested before, you can dodge roll, which works perfectly fine, as long as your equip load is lower than 69,9% (anything higher and you heavy roll, dramatically decreasing your invincibility frames).
You could also utilize different Ashes of War, like Quickstep, Bloodhound's Step, Raptor of the Mists, or Vow of the Indomitable.

However, all of the above requires you to press a button to not get hit by the attack you're complaining about.

I hope I could outline that as clear as possible for you.

Even with the light load, his ground attacks are still a gamble to dodge, to the point where I'm starting to doubt the whole concept of lower equip load = more invincibility frames) cuz I fought him with med load and light load and didn't notice any difference, he still gets me most of the time.

Honestly, and hopefully you don't take this the wrong way, that's just a matter of timing your dodges correctly. I have fought this boss countless times now, even soloed him in coop, and by now I am able to make it through some fights without getting hit a single time. If you practice often enough, you will be able to dodge the stomps.

Don't give up, skeleton;

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

The Ash of war suggestion is actually a decent one. Although those ashes of war are all dex based and my weapon is strength based and has heavy affinity. Having to change your weapon for the sake of one fight definitely seems like a gimmick fight.

I'm not sure about Vow of the Indomitable, but every other Ash of War I suggested can be used to heavy infuse your weapons, provided you found the Iron Whetblade.

[Nubi, Toa of Gaming]

Escrito originalmente por Tao314zdin:

Escrito originalmente por Nubi, Toa of Gaming:

You don't even have to change Godfrey himself, just make sure that the previous bosses in the game have attacks that require jumping, that way you introduce the player to this mechanic well and prepare them for the challenge ahead. Yes, these games are supposed to be challenging, but they are also supposed to be a journey up the hill, not just being slammed into a wall and expected to climb it.

Actually on that note, how did you mange to reach end-game and not get accustomed to jumping attacks?

They are some of the strongest attacks in PVE from the standard-moveset (not counting ashes), so did you like Mooweil all the way through to miss on them or you just hate jumping so much that you would not use it in general combat even though it is one of the strongest moves against PVE?

I don't play PvP, and I'm so used to the Dark Souls games that jumping attacks are mostly an afterthought for me.

Plus, in regards to Godfrey, his ground slams stun you, so you can't really run up to him and jump attack if you got caught by his first ground slam attack.