Am I the only one who despises roll on release?

[Some immortal blob creature]

Like honestly, when I press the roll button I do so because I want to roll when I press the button, not because I want to roll after I stop pressing the button and the game realizes I pressed the button to roll and not to run. For some reason whenever I say something like this people act like I just said that being able to move in games is bad or something equally stupid but I'm not wrong am I; less input delay is almost universally considered to be better and making roll on press lowers input delay so why is this so unpopular?
Of course I know that it's this way because run and roll are on the same button but this is a terrible excuse as they shouldn't be binded together in the first place. Roll could easilly fit on interact or something as that one doesn't need to be very precise it just needs to be so that you won't enter a sprint when you're trying to pick something up in the heat of combat which wouldn't be an issue as fromsoft already nailed that in the roll delay in the first place. And even if I grant that this is the only way for the controlls to work it still wouldn't excuse it from being a flaw because it arguably, objectively is.

[Heimdall313]

Honestly it would be nice to just have an ingame toggle for on press / on release. I get snagged on dodges

Originally posted by m_train1:

Adapt, improvise, and overcome like everyone else.

I've always wanted that stupid "adapt adjust acclimatize" motto printed on a doormat.

[Pelerin]

Originally posted by Casval Zem Daikun:

Originally posted by Pelerin:

My feelings are hurt.

ftfy

I'm pretty sure you're wrong btw.

Demons Souls, DS 1 & 3, BB, Sekiro and ER are using the same engine - DS 2 I'm not so sure.

If you can show me evidence that isn't the case, I'll gladly admit I'm mistaken.

And what're you harping on about patterns for?

New IPs don't lift from previous games huh?

Kinda like how Fallout 3 wasn't a direct lift of Oblivion eh?

I think you might be projecting with your insults and have to rely on them since you can't back up what you're saying.

[pza]

I dont really understand the problem.

Running and rolling on the same button is not AT ALL a problem, if you know how to use it.

I guess your other problem is that you attack once too often? It happens to everyone.. You wanna roll away, but accidently press attack 0,1 seconds too long, so you die because of that.

Its not a bad mechanic, its just skill. But sometimes i wish they would make "correcting movements" at least a bit easier. Like at least chance from attack to role after 50% of the attack, when it didnt hit yet. Also why the moving around of the stick for 20 minutes after your mana is down? Sure.. I get the Soulslike typical punishment.. But at least make it half as long!

Besides that.. I dont really understand what you want tbh!?

Can we talk about something way worse tho?? SOME ENEMIES SKATE TO YOU, WHILE THEY SWORD ATTACK!!! It only happens rarely, but when it happens.. Ugh.. Sign of a horrible game.. Looks dumb AF..

[Casval Zem Daikun]

Originally posted by Pelerin:

I'm pretty sure you're wrong btw.

Demons Souls, DS 1 & 3, BB, Sekiro and ER are using the same engine - DS 2 I'm not so sure.

If you can show me evidence that isn't the case, I'll gladly admit I'm mistaken.

I'm curious, what evidence would you accept aside from citing source code?

Originally posted by Pelerin:

And what're you harping on about patterns for?

New IPs don't lift from previous games huh?

Kinda like how Fallout 3 wasn't a direct lift of Oblivion eh?

I think you might be projecting with your insults and have to rely on them since you can't back up what you're saying.

I just spent like a whole page teaching some other idiot what words mean. Go back and read. I'm not a charity and I'm not responsible for how the education system failed you.

[Pelerin]

Originally posted by Casval Zem Daikun:

Originally posted by Pelerin:

I'm pretty sure you're wrong btw.

Demons Souls, DS 1 & 3, BB, Sekiro and ER are using the same engine - DS 2 I'm not so sure.

If you can show me evidence that isn't the case, I'll gladly admit I'm mistaken.

I'm curious, what evidence would you accept aside from citing source code?

Originally posted by Pelerin:

And what're you harping on about patterns for?

New IPs don't lift from previous games huh?

Kinda like how Fallout 3 wasn't a direct lift of Oblivion eh?

I think you might be projecting with your insults and have to rely on them since you can't back up what you're saying.

I just spent like a whole page teaching some other idiot what words mean. Go back and read. I'm not a charity and I'm not responsible for how the education system failed you.

Any evidence at all would be helpful, considering that all available information points to you being incorrect.

So you don't actually have an argument or examples? Your condescending tone and ad hominem might make you feel like you're being clever - but it just makes you look foolish and doesn't help the discussion.

You're whole argument now relies on pendantry around what words you've used, in order to avoid admitting you're wrong.

Want me to find some more examples of studios new IPs using existing engines and lifting gameplay?

Would that help you accept that the fault lies with you for your assumptions and expectations?

EDIT: You know, I've gone back and read through some of this thread again and I think some of the confusion going on here might be to do with you not actually understanding what a game engine is.

I could be wrong, but that would explain a lot.

To be clear I'm not trying to insult you by saying that, a lot of people don't and that's fine - but alongside your apparent insecurities about your own intelligence - would explain why this discussion has gone this way.

[Casval Zem Daikun]

Originally posted by Pelerin:

Any evidence at all would be helpful, considering that all available information points to you being incorrect.

I can already foresee what's coming but, sure, I'll bite.
Before BB, the souls series has been deliberately slow. DkS2 is obviously using the same engine. Bloodborne, however, made enough changes to the base formula to warrant calling it uniquely crafted.
Implicit ranged weaponry, trick weapons simply existing, charged attacks actually meaning something, lower stamina consumption on dodge, the general gameplay being balanced around these changes. Sekiro made just as many changes, if not more, to totally differentiate itself from the Souls formula.

So, yea, I'd say BB and Sekiro are two separate IPs that managed to disconnect themselves from the souls games. Elden Ring, however, is Dark Souls 3 with a jump button.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

So you don't actually have an argument or examples? Your condescending tone and ad hominem might make you feel like you're being clever - but it just makes you look foolish and doesn't help the discussion.

I apologize. When I see a tree, I call it a tree. Next time, I'll take your advice and call it a scholar.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

You're whole argument now relies on pendantry around what words you've used, in order to avoid admitting you're wrong.

It doesn't.
You and the other dumbass seem to think pointing out something like "muh ubisoft" negates the argument when it was never an all or nothing deal. If I wanted to assert an absolute, I wouldn't use the word "typically".

Please, google the words you don't understand. I'm tired of explaining.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

Want me to find some more examples of studios new IPs using existing engines and lifting gameplay?

Would that help you accept that the fault lies with you for your assumptions and expectations?

I'd rather you find an education.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

EDIT: You know, I've gone back and read through some of this thread again and I think some of the confusion going on here might be to do with you not actually understanding what a game engine is.

I could be wrong, but that would explain a lot.

I never mentioned a game engine. Again, reading comprehension.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

I'm reaching harder than a midget in a grocery store.

That's nice.

[Pelerin]

Originally posted by Casval Zem Daikun:

Originally posted by Pelerin:

Any evidence at all would be helpful, considering that all available information points to you being incorrect.

I can already foresee what's coming but, sure, I'll bite.
Before BB, the souls series has been deliberately slow. DkS2 is obviously using the same engine. Bloodborne, however, made enough changes to the base formula to warrant calling it uniquely crafted.
Implicit ranged weaponry, trick weapons simply existing, charged attacks actually meaning something, lower stamina consumption on dodge, the general gameplay being balanced around these changes. Sekiro made just as many changes, if not more, to totally differentiate itself from the Souls formula.

So, yea, I'd say BB and Sekiro are two separate IPs that managed to disconnect themselves from the souls games. Elden Ring, however, is Dark Souls 3 with a jump button.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

So you don't actually have an argument or examples? Your condescending tone and ad hominem might make you feel like you're being clever - but it just makes you look foolish and doesn't help the discussion.

I apologize. When I see a tree, I call it a tree. Next time, I'll take your advice and call it a scholar.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

You're whole argument now relies on pendantry around what words you've used, in order to avoid admitting you're wrong.

It doesn't.
You and the other dumbass seem to think pointing out something like "muh ubisoft" negates the argument when it was never an all or nothing deal. If I wanted to assert an absolute, I wouldn't use the word "typically".

Please, google the words you don't understand. I'm tired of explaining.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

Want me to find some more examples of studios new IPs using existing engines and lifting gameplay?

Would that help you accept that the fault lies with you for your assumptions and expectations?

I'd rather you find an education.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

EDIT: You know, I've gone back and read through some of this thread again and I think some of the confusion going on here might be to do with you not actually understanding what a game engine is.

I could be wrong, but that would explain a lot.

I never mentioned a game engine. Again, reading comprehension.

Originally posted by Pelerin:

I'm reaching harder than a midget in a grocery store.

That's nice.

You have nothing, got it.

You're trying to move the goal posts and your understanding of what constitutes a new game engine is wrong - which is ironic considering how pedantic you're being about the word "typically".

[MundM]

It's fine. Works well since Demon's Souls.

[Casval Zem Daikun]

Originally posted by Pelerin:

You have nothing, got it.

Wait for it

Originally posted by Pelerin:

You're trying to move the goal posts and your understanding of what constitutes a new game engine is wrong - which is ironic considering how pedantic you're being about the word "typically".

I love it.
So you fail to understand what an absolute is. You fail to understand what "typically" means. You fail to read the posts saying I was never advocating for an absolute. And you fail to understand the difference between a game engine and a combat engine.

So, simply put, you're a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Again, I'm going to call a tree a tree. And you're ticking all the boxes, mate.

Can't wait for the next dodge.

[Some immortal blob creature]

Originally posted by pza:

I dont really understand the problem.

Running and rolling on the same button is not AT ALL a problem, if you know how to use it.

I guess your other problem is that you attack once too often? It happens to everyone.. You wanna roll away, but accidently press attack 0,1 seconds too long, so you die because of that.

Its not a bad mechanic, its just skill. But sometimes i wish they would make "correcting movements" at least a bit easier. Like at least chance from attack to role after 50% of the attack, when it didnt hit yet. Also why the moving around of the stick for 20 minutes after your mana is down? Sure.. I get the Soulslike typical punishment.. But at least make it half as long!

Besides that.. I dont really understand what you want tbh!? :acduck:

The issue is that with the current vanilla control scheme there's an unnesseceraly large delay in the roll, if you don't notice this than good for you you're one of the people who just don't notice it but I do notice it and it makes difficult boss fights very tedious because I need to actively memorize every single timing of every single attack, imagine playing a rhythm game with half a second input delay, that's what it feels like to me. The thing is that this issue was almost completely fixed by using a specific steam controller template which just shows how this delay is due to sheer incompetence.

Originally posted by pza:

Can we talk about something way worse tho?? SOME ENEMIES SKATE TO YOU, WHILE THEY SWORD ATTACK!!! It only happens rarely, but when it happens.. Ugh.. Sign of a horrible game.. Looks dumb AF..

I can agree that that kind of stuff is also bad, I don't recall any elden ring bosses or enemies having this but I also haven't beaten the entire game yet so maybe I just missed it. I have noticed it in certain ds1 bosses specifically Ornstein really likes to just homing dash on you like his feet are made from motorized rollerskates, straight up making 90 degree angles just to hit you. Personally however I'd consider the dodgeroll delay to be the bigger issue as that problem makes it even harder for me to dodge those slip 'n slide attacks but I do understand that this is ultimately a me issue, but then that's also why I made this tread it was a frustration that no one seemed to share with me but it looks like there are quite a few people who have the same issue.

[Some immortal blob creature]

Originally posted by MundM:

It's fine. Works well since Demon's Souls.

For some people*

[Some immortal blob creature]

Originally posted by Casval Zem Daikun:

Originally posted by Pelerin:

EDIT: You know, I've gone back and read through some of this thread again and I think some of the confusion going on here might be to do with you not actually understanding what a game engine is.

I could be wrong, but that would explain a lot.

I never mentioned a game engine. Again, reading comprehension.

You literally mentioned game engine here.

Originally posted by Casval Zem Daikun:

Originally posted by Pelerin:

I know input-queueing has always been a thing, but peeps in here are acting like this roll business is new for ER and wasn't in the Souls games?

Weird. I had assumed Elden Ring was a totally separate IP from the Souls series and featured several new innovations and original ideas.
Instead, we got a lift of the Dark Souls engine. Meanwhile I can play another souls-like and get the dodge to perform on key press.

Right here the main topic of discussion was the game's engine, a topic which you did not object to.

Originally posted by Casval Zem Daikun:

Originally posted by Pelerin:

That's nobody's fault but your own, what evidence was there to suggest that:

A: It wasn't just going to be open-world Souls.

And B: Fromsoft would use a new engine.
(If they were, they probably would've mentioned it.)

Literally everything?

The game wasn't advertised to be open world souls. The game was advertised as "Elden Ring," featuring an open world. This is a totally new IP. To put this into context, I don't think anyone expected the Dark Souls formula in Bloodborne. Instead, what we got was a, mostly, hand-crafted experience in a new IP designed for that IP. Same for Sekiro. However, for Elden Ring, what we got was literally "open-world souls".
So not only would a person implicitly expect a new IP to be a mostly original and hand-crafted idea, FS has shown that they're capable of crafting these. Unfortunately, they simply didn't deliver.

I think I've already explained why we'd expect a new engine. The Dark Souls engine wouldn't work in Bloodborne. So they modified it to suit a new IP. Same for Sekiro. The Dark Souls formula just doesn't work in those games. Regardless of that, we have Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring that bleed BB ideas into a Dark Souls formula while also, arguably, introducing Nioh levels of attack chains.
Pontiff and Gundyr are two examples of how this does and doesn't work. Pontiff has long attack chains but poor tracking, which works great for the Dark Souls formula. Gundyr, regardless of how much we may like the fight, has Nioh levels of attack tracking and will literally contort his model to try and hit you.

With all due respect, you're not wrong for expecting more improvements in a new IP but at this point you're just arguing the semantics behind it; there's no meat behind any of the arguments and between the two of you, you seem to be the only one who doesn't realise this. You're just being petty for the sake of being petty and I'd like this to stop as it's clogging up both this thread and my notifications.

[Casval Zem Daikun]

Originally posted by Some immortal blob creature:

Semantics

Combat engine != game engine.
Want the notifications to stop? Turn them off. Not my problem.

[Some immortal blob creature]

Originally posted by Casval Zem Daikun:

Originally posted by Some immortal blob creature:

Semantics

Combat engine != game engine.

You didn't specify that, and even then combat engine is quite a nebulous term; unless you're talking about very specific commercial engines such as Renpy then the combat engine is pretty much baked into the engine itself. I think combat mechanics is a better term for what you're trying to argue as that actually kind of makes sense; I can easily agree that the combat is very similar to darksouls. If I understand you correctly you would've prefered for a different combat system for the Elden Ring IP similarly to Bloodborne and Sekiro which is fair but at the same time Fromsoft was not subtle with the fact that the combat in ER is similar to DS. Their pre release demo played extremely similar to DS with the main twist being the open world which was an opinion echoed by practically everyone who participated in said demo and ignoring that the rehash of DS combat is very clear in just the first hour of gameplay.

Reusing a combat system isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you want to argue that then you'll need to give arguements as to why reusing the system doesn't work which you aren't really doing. Personally I like the old DS combat system and I love how the open world recontextualizes this system. (not that that excuses bringing over old flaws as well)

[Casval Zem Daikun]

Originally posted by Some immortal blob creature:

You didn't specify that, and even then combat engine is quite a nebulous term; unless you're talking about very specific commercial engines such as Renpy then the combat engine is pretty much baked into the engine itself. I think combat mechanics is a better term for what you're trying to argue as that actually kind of makes sense; I can easily agree that the combat is very similar to darksouls. If I understand you correctly you would've prefered for a different combat system for the Elden Ring IP similarly to Bloodborne and Sekiro which is fair but at the same time Fromsoft was not subtle with the fact that the combat in ER is similar to DS. Their pre release demo played extremely similar to DS with the main twist being the open world which was an opinion echoed by practically everyone who participated in said demo and ignoring that the rehash of DS combat is very clear in just the first hour of gameplay.

Reusing a combat system isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you want to argue that then you'll need to give arguements as to why reusing the system doesn't work which you aren't really doing. Personally I like the old DS combat system and I love how the open world recontextualizes this system. (not that that excuses bringing over old flaws as well)

Originally posted by Some immortal blob creature:

Semantics

Ok.