Monogod factions = bad idea.

[FatAngryBastard]

Title. The fact I'm writing this thread even is a little concerning, but I know that there's lots of new members to the fanbase, especially with TWH3 announced. So, let an old timer discuss with you as to why this is a bad idea. You may be surprised. EDIT: Yes I know I could be entirely wrong and blah blah blah. But this is a highlight of why this isnt a good idea. Nothing else.

1. A Stupid Idea.

A monogod faction will not work, it's thematically illogical due to obvious division, although chaos daemons ridicule reason or logic, they still have rules even they must follow. They are the manifestations of the Dark God's will, after all. It makes no sense otherwise.

Look, I own a Daemons of Chaos 8th ed manual, I'm building an TT army for it currently. A monogod faction means it WILL be barebones, as it restricts which units can be used and included into said army. It's asking to run with a puny army that lacks rational balance, it won't be fun. Seriously. No one plays monogod armies on the Table Top for a reason.

Example? Tzeentch will be nailed hard in melee with no support due to a lack of durability, Khorne for range and magic vice versa, whereas Nurgle less so has these problems, but will have to be microed like a mad fool due to his lack of speed.
Slaanesh will require extreme micro regardless of the circumstances but he has, outside of magic spells, no ranged to speak of. And speaking of durability, his units excepting the Keeper of Secrets (sometimes) isn't designed to tank alot of damage.

2. The High Priest of the Slann and a random Loremaster want a word with you, stupid human.

For the lore, story and understanding of the characters that the big Four are, objectively you'll be attempting psychological calesthenics in order try to force different units of different gods to work together without their respective leadership working alongside them, as I've heard of some ppl arguing for different God's units in different God's factions.

Again, a bad idea. The Chaos Gods will not work together except under a single banner, led by the strongest.
Monogod factions will muddle this. Also, Bloodletters don't follow kindly to the orders of servants of Slaanesh if it hasn't proven itself worthy, vice versa. Ergo, leading a chaos invasion of reality. Its well known that the Chaos Gods only work together when one proves his strengths are greater than the others, and sends his greatest Champions to herald the invasions.

This would be no different with the Daemons themselves, as it is with humans. But even so, while each god will want a piece of that victory he is expected by his brothers to contribute, hence having different God's Champions under one single banner fighting together, like a uncomfortable anime character's alliance, it really does the system justice and is insanely thematic. Perhaps having the occasional random DOC NPC factions to fight and conscript to your service makes sense, but let's be honest:

Why fight your own, when you can fight Kislev and Cathay? Hashut and his band of merry midgets still owes you for those UBER-RARE (*Nurglette-smooth-skinned BBW Playgirls-featured*) Slaanesh's Playhouse mags he never returned (art isn't cheap my son. ;) And the Ogres are having all the fun without you!

3. A tidy campaign map is a healthy map.

Look. I'm not a big fan of dividing and creating multiple subfactions for the sake of more factions. I prefer something more neat and tidy. For one, it causes a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of processor loading backlog. And let's be honest, Immortal Empires won't work with that problem. The turn speed will drive you mad. Monogod factions will be dumping more fuel on that ugly, noxious inferno.

That is why I find a singular force works at its best: tidey unity. If we have multiple chaos daemon factions around the map, it will suck. Hard.

4. The Variety Of Different Races to play is a Good thing.

I for one do not want to see Warriors of Chaos be subsumed into Daemons of Chaos. While I do feel Norsca should be absorbed into WOC as they gave too small a presence to be truly relevant (also WoC should be allowed to have settlements in Norsca and Chaos Wastes alone, nowhere else. Except the average six slot township ports they can raid from, locally speaking. Also lorewise it makes sense as you need somewhere to hide and sleep).

That aside, Daemons Of Chaos are far too different a race to have WOC be forced into, and then that creates new problems. Such as what roles does Kholek Suneater and Archaon fullfill when I have giant f'ing demons? Really now, think on it.

That wraps up my cautionary rant. I'm open to discussions of course but now real life calls. See y'all around, mad lads.

[peremptor]

Originally posted by Oni:

Originally posted by FatAngryBastard:

Uh......what? Having multiple factions of whatever in the map affects the length time of turns in the game. Doesn't matter what said race is. So, ergo: Having one large Daemons of Chaos faction > Multiple Divided factions.

only if your computer is a potato it would be about five seconds tops for me

The game has come a long way in the turn time optimization department from the first launch of ME and there's mods that make the turn times go by even quicker.

[Oni]

mono gods make a lot more seance for one if they were one faction they would get six lords total which would be one for each and an extra one for two so we would probably get each of the grater daemons plus say epatas for nurgal and the changeling for Tzinch kinda boring if you ask me Damons in general dont have the grates lore all of Korne are his greatest warrior on some technical point nurgal characters make diseses and so on. with warrors of chaos in the mix we have a better selection of lord options warriors of chaos would probably get a couple with their re work but they would miss out on a lot of choices.

also if you had a pure daemon army you they would need to decide what units will be in the first tear of each building chain for infantry that would be horrors with blue horrors being the default unit then demonetis and perhaps one of the other two units and the other being top this is because horrors will be a tar pit wile demoneties would be a mid tear damage dealer with some armour pen wile blood leters would be high damage and plague bearers would be vary tanky and have good damage

monsters would probably be furries first then flamers and fiends because it would give them some range fairly early and fiends would be good war machine hunters and flank charges but not good in a head on fight beast of nurgal would come next because they are solid and they would probably put any other monster including a dragon in the top tear perhaps even the flying plague bearers

then they would have hounds in first for cave then hounds of Korn then daemoneties on steed of slanesh seeker chariot and then screamers and the other slanesh chariot and finally blood crushers

so basically you would start of with a mixed army then go for a more Tzinch and slanesh split but end game you would be predominantly Korn and Nurgal you might take some flamers for range but that's about it they could make each building god specific but then you would probably play them as a mostly mono god well into the mid game and still end up with the late game mix from the first salutation or they would have all the infantry as tear one which would mean all their infantry would be mediocre at best.

you could argue that taking a serten lord would give units affiliated with that lords god buffs there for making those gods units more viabule but we sore what that was like with grom buffing his goblins to ludicrous levels it made his campaign kind of ridicules.

with warrior of chaos mixed into mono god factions they will have a lot more flexibility they can put marorders and/or chaos warrior in tear one and put the Daemon units in higher tears they also give the player the ability for the player to choose what gods units they want to use and they would be able to use say the daemons they prefer in the late game and still have them be competitive.

it also means more fan favourite lords.

[Oni]

Originally posted by FatAngryBastard:

Originally posted by peremptor:

Yeah good stuff. Most of us that got into TWWH obviously had no prior knowledge of the tabletop game the property was based on or the lore other than some generalities we've picked up along the way.

We just want an awesome game that continues what the first and second game have built on so far.

I mean no disrespect to the setting and the original games built around it but I'm sure more of us place an emphasis on gameplay over lore accuracies and the like.

No offense taken, apologies if I get standoffish. Im just uber passionate about my warhammer. The deal with lore and gameplay is one can tie into the other decently. It's not a complicated matter. I'm just stating the obvious fact that monogod factions shouldn't be a expected staple. Gameplay wise, what's the fun in cutting different races apart to just shove them all together? Like this combination of DoCn and WoC? Why? That removes faction options and flavoured variety. That's just my five cents.

did you know warriors of chaos daemons and beast men were all one faction called chaos back in the day? and mono god factions were all the rage?

[peremptor]

Originally posted by Oni:

Originally posted by FatAngryBastard:

No offense taken, apologies if I get standoffish. Im just uber passionate about my warhammer. The deal with lore and gameplay is one can tie into the other decently. It's not a complicated matter. I'm just stating the obvious fact that monogod factions shouldn't be a expected staple. Gameplay wise, what's the fun in cutting different races apart to just shove them all together? Like this combination of DoCn and WoC? Why? That removes faction options and flavoured variety. That's just my five cents.

did you know warriors of chaos daemons and beast men were all one faction called chaos back in the day? and mono god factions were all the rage?

Dark times I'm sure. Thank heavens we now live in a more sensible age

[Molybdane]

OP is missing one thing though. Tabletop mono-god armies were a poor choice because these armies weren't fully fleshed out. They couldn't be, as it wouldn't be economical to introduce models for that many armies that would be bought too little. It is much easier, on the other hand, to introduce new units in WH3, as there are no model design costs, pre-production costs. It probably is still a ton of work, relatively, to make the four mono-god armies as filled out as any other army, but it sounds more manageable than a tabletop counterpart would be.

[A.Pot]

I feel like some people might be blowing the monogod thing out of proportion. In 40k, there is an army called Khorne Daemonkin which is basically just Daemons + Marines with rules tweaked to reflect Khorne's nature as an aggressive, close combat oriented deity. In the older editions, Chaos was Daemons and Marines combined but were later split up.

In Fantasy, there was Hordes of Chaos which was pretty much Chaos Warriors and Daemons together. Its very likely that the monogods will just be different flavors of Hordes of Chaos but with a focus on certain unit types like how Eshin heavily encourages you to use Eshin units.

We should wait and see what CA comes up with but I expect the monogods faction to essentially have the same mortal units and teamed up with daemons from the different gods.

[archonsod]

Originally posted by FatAngryBastard:

Look, I own a Daemons of Chaos 8th ed manual, I'm building an TT army for it currently. A monogod faction means it WILL be barebones, as it restricts which units can be used and included into said army. It's asking to run with a puny army that lacks rational balance, it won't be fun. Seriously. No one plays monogod armies on the Table Top for a reason.

I had a Slaanesh army all the way from 3rd - 7th edition, and a Tzeentch army 5th - 7th. Never had an issue with it being bare bones, in fact I found the split of the Undead army and the initial Brettonia and Lizardmen lists to be more of an issue in that regard. I think in fact that issue is kind of the reverse - Monogod armies have been a thing since the original Realm of Chaos books back in '83, when they were actually formalised as a specific army list they just added what was needed to balance them out, and they've kind of stagnated ever since, primarily because they're pretty much working as intended.
The tabletop problem is down to variety rather than any inherent weakness in the list, and I'm not sure how relevant an issue that would be outside of ME. The monogod armies are all one-note; Slaanesh for example is a highly manoeuvrable glass cannon. It's pretty good at it - point for point daemonettes are probably the most effective glass cannons in the game, daemonic instability aside - but that's all it can really do. Both Goblins and Dark Elves can equally field high movement glass cannon lists, however they can also branch off into other directions too -gun line, big guy et al. Slaanesh can't, unless you go back into a generic Chaos/Daemons/Undivided list. It's likely why they're relatively rare on the tabletop - I'd guess most monogod lists are a result of branching off a 'main' army rather than something players opt to build from scratch.

Again, a bad idea. The Chaos Gods will not work together except under a single banner, led by the strongest.

The Chaos Gods will never work together. The problem you have from a human perspective is that they're also beings for whom 4D chess is considered too simple, and capable of pursuing long term goals measured in centuries. Combined armies of Chaos forces, even those ostensibly diametrically opposed, aren't that uncommon - it's not that they're working together, it's just that the various plots within plots happen to have called them together for reasons likely unfathomable to mere mortals.

I for one do not want to see Warriors of Chaos be subsumed into Daemons of Chaos.

Depends how it's done. Use a special resource to control demon recruitment, add a mutation system similar to the greenskin unit upgrade system that utilises the same resource and can only be applied to WoC units. Demons probably start off slightly stronger but don't really improve, whereas WoC units might begin a little weaker but you can specialise them via mutations. Would give an interpretation fairly close to the fluff, while also giving a decent measure of variety.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by FatAngryBastard:

Uh......what? Having multiple factions of whatever in the map affects the length time of turns in the game. Doesn't matter what said race is. So, ergo: Having one large Daemons of Chaos faction > Multiple Divided factions.

I'l explain further and rephrase my text (English is not my first language so sometimes the point i'm trying to get across ends up a bit muddled)

Since you were talking about "monogod factions" i got the impression that you were talking about what in this game is called races rather then factions. Also, just in case you really meant factions we know that they are going to do monogod races rather then factions.

As a example: High elves are a race, that has the playable factions "Eataine, Order of Loremasters, Avelorn, Nagarythe, Yvresse & Knights of Caledor" and a number of unplayable factions.

How many races there are (So for example one for each chaos god or one for chaos deamons as a whole) is irrelevant to the turn time, only the amount of factions makes a difference.

So as i mentioned at the end of the original message you quoted, if you want faster turn times what you need is less factions rather then less races, so for playable factions that means less legendary lords (since with a few exceptions from game 1, every legendary lord is its own faction) and less unplayable factions to fight against.

Having less legendary lords and less factions to fight against is something i think most would disagree with.

[parent child bowl]

OP seems to assume that territory that is owned by the monogod factions would go to a undivided faction if they decided against monogods while in fact the territory would likely just go to the same number of unplayable factions.

[Xenos]

they'll add new stuff.

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by 76561198011133754:

Title. The fact I'm writing this thread even is a little concerning, but I know that there's lots of new members to the fanbase, especially with TWH3 announced. So, let an old timer discuss with you as to why this is a bad idea. You may be surprised. EDIT: Yes I know I could be entirely wrong and blah blah blah. But this is a highlight of why this isnt a good idea. Nothing else.

1. A Stupid Idea.

A monogod faction will not work, it's thematically illogical due to obvious division, although chaos daemons ridicule reason or logic, they still have rules even they must follow. They are the manifestations of the Dark God's will, after all. It makes no sense otherwise.

Look, I own a Daemons of Chaos 8th ed manual, I'm building an TT army for it currently. A monogod faction means it WILL be barebones, as it restricts which units can be used and included into said army. It's asking to run with a puny army that lacks rational balance, it won't be fun. Seriously. No one plays monogod armies on the Table Top for a reason.

Example? Tzeentch will be nailed hard in melee with no support due to a lack of durability, Khorne for range and magic vice versa, whereas Nurgle less so has these problems, but will have to be microed like a mad fool due to his lack of speed.
Slaanesh will require extreme micro regardless of the circumstances but he has, outside of magic spells, no ranged to speak of. And speaking of durability, his units excepting the Keeper of Secrets (sometimes) isn't designed to tank alot of damage.

2. The High Priest of the Slann and a random Loremaster want a word with you, stupid human.

For the lore, story and understanding of the characters that the big Four are, objectively you'll be attempting psychological calesthenics in order try to force different units of different gods to work together without their respective leadership working alongside them, as I've heard of some ppl arguing for different God's units in different God's factions.

Again, a bad idea. The Chaos Gods will not work together except under a single banner, led by the strongest.
Monogod factions will muddle this. Also, Bloodletters don't follow kindly to the orders of servants of Slaanesh if it hasn't proven itself worthy, vice versa. Ergo, leading a chaos invasion of reality. Its well known that the Chaos Gods only work together when one proves his strengths are greater than the others, and sends his greatest Champions to herald the invasions.

This would be no different with the Daemons themselves, as it is with humans. But even so, while each god will want a piece of that victory he is expected by his brothers to contribute, hence having different God's Champions under one single banner fighting together, like a uncomfortable anime character's alliance, it really does the system justice and is insanely thematic. Perhaps having the occasional random DOC NPC factions to fight and conscript to your service makes sense, but let's be honest:

Why fight your own, when you can fight Kislev and Cathay? Hashut and his band of merry midgets still owes you for those UBER-RARE (*Nurglette-smooth-skinned BBW Playgirls-featured*) Slaanesh's Playhouse mags he never returned (art isn't cheap my son. ;) And the Ogres are having all the fun without you!

3. A tidy campaign map is a healthy map.

Look. I'm not a big fan of dividing and creating multiple subfactions for the sake of more factions. I prefer something more neat and tidy. For one, it causes a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of processor loading backlog. And let's be honest, Immortal Empires won't work with that problem. The turn speed will drive you mad. Monogod factions will be dumping more fuel on that ugly, noxious inferno.

That is why I find a singular force works at its best: tidey unity. If we have multiple chaos daemon factions around the map, it will suck. Hard.

4. The Variety Of Different Races to play is a Good thing.

I for one do not want to see Warriors of Chaos be subsumed into Daemons of Chaos. While I do feel Norsca should be absorbed into WOC as they gave too small a presence to be truly relevant (also WoC should be allowed to have settlements in Norsca and Chaos Wastes alone, nowhere else. Except the average six slot township ports they can raid from, locally speaking. Also lorewise it makes sense as you need somewhere to hide and sleep).

That aside, Daemons Of Chaos are far too different a race to have WOC be forced into, and then that creates new problems. Such as what roles does Kholek Suneater and Archaon fullfill when I have giant f'ing demons? Really now, think on it.

That wraps up my cautionary rant. I'm open to discussions of course but now real life calls. See y'all around, mad lads. :EvilGrin:

I can understand what your concern may be. However i do not think u should worry about no undivided faction. And im not talking about WOC. im pretty sure that we will se be'lakor and with a new model coming for him in age of sigmar, i think it is even more possible. He will most likely be the undivided faction for chaos and will play as a hybrid faction. CA has been experimenting with playable hybrid factions with the launch of Tomb Kings (arkhan the black) and then they added alarielle, aranesa saltspite and they developed it even more with Drycha. And i think Be'lakor would be the ultimate test for CA when it comes to hybrid factions.When it comes to monogod, they are being treated as different RACES, NOT FACTIONS. If we assume that the game has been developped for 2+ years im sure that CA had the time to fill their roster in a way to not feel lacking at launch.

[Oni]

Originally posted by peremptor:

Originally posted by Oni:

did you know warriors of chaos daemons and beast men were all one faction called chaos back in the day? and mono god factions were all the rage?

Dark times I'm sure. Thank heavens we now live in a more sensible age :tongue:

not at all

[peremptor]

Originally posted by Oni:

Originally posted by peremptor:

Dark times I'm sure. Thank heavens we now live in a more sensible age

not at all

It is the best of times... it is the worst of times. Don't be a half empty glass kinda fella Oni!

[Psycho Mantis]

nah they're fine.

[FatAngryBastard]

Originally posted by psychomantis200:

nah they're fine.

Lol k