If I wanted to play Cathay, I'd play Three Kingdoms instead.

[Biff Buttcus]

No chorfs, no ogres, but for some reason Cathay, no buy.

[halogamb]

DarkChaplain の投稿を引用：

Chaos Dwarves got ONE book collected from White Dwarf articles and rules in 4th edition, back in '94, which wasn't even translated for local markets, and that was that. They're an ancient relic with little actual relevance on the tabletop, or even the fiction. They exist, but they last had a real role to play over 25 years ago.

Look up the Tamurkhan book. Chaos Dwarfs got a full armylist and official models in 2011 so this isn't correct.

[jonoliveira12]

DarkChaplain の投稿を引用：

Dr. Uncredible の投稿を引用：

I mean, this is the classic way of ordering things, but it´s not quite that black and white, the only true order races according to this would be Tomb Kings and Lizardmen, and I assume even truly sentient Tomb Kings enjoy freedom and leisure, as long as they do not question Settra.
There´s plenty of freedom to be had in both the human, dwarven and elven kingdoms, calling them all "good" might be a stretch, but saying they all seek to exterminate individuality and freedom is even more incorrect. (apart from the Lizardmen)

jono is obviously taking those categories from the Age of Sigmar Grand Alliances, which are *very* different, especially these days, from what WHFB used to be. The simple fact that Ogres actually were often used as prized mercenaries by so-called "Order" factions puts a weird spin on their "Destruction" category... and they don't ally easily in AoS thanks to that, either.

Meanwhile, in AoS, even Morathi's snakewomen are considered an Order faction, same as Sigmar's golden boys, or the Fishelves that steal babies and their souls.

At the same time, we have obvious shared values and alliances in the Old World, even if the "good guys" have their differences and prejudices. They still represent independent societies based around cultural values and beliefs that would be good enough to live in for a member of their race.
The Empire's biggest issue on a societal level is pretty much the widespread near-poverty of its general uneducated populace - but that doesn't make them bad guys.

--------

Re: Chaos Dwarves, I'm actually amazed people have been clamoring for them while being pissed at Kislev, considering how long Chaos Dwarves have been off the tabletop in any real capacity outside of Blood Bowl.

Kislev at least had an army booklet in 6th edition. Chaos Dwarves got ONE book collected from White Dwarf articles and rules in 4th edition, back in '94, which wasn't even translated for local markets, and that was that. They're an ancient relic with little actual relevance on the tabletop, or even the fiction. They exist, but they last had a real role to play over 25 years ago.

I am not usibng anything from Age of Sigmar.

In fact, if you want UNIVERSAL GOOD vs UNVERSAL EVIL, then AoS is for you.
Warhammer never had Good vs Evil, it has 4 axis, as I described, and they were there long before Age of Sigmar.

There is no Good in Warhammer, everything is Evil.
You just choose between pragmatic evil, chaotic evil, scheming evil, and manipulative evil.

[SpaceGoatMage]

jonoliveira12 の投稿を引用：

There is no Good in Warhammer, everything is Evil.
You just choose between pragmatic evil, chaotic evil, scheming evil, and manipulative evil.

Are you seriously saying someone like Karl Franz, Teclis or Gotrek & Felix are evil?

[Jerubius]

SpaceGoatMage の投稿を引用：

jonoliveira12 の投稿を引用：

There is no Good in Warhammer, everything is Evil.
You just choose between pragmatic evil, chaotic evil, scheming evil, and manipulative evil.

Are you seriously saying someone like Karl Franz, Teclis or Gotrek & Felix are evil?

If you look into it, it's hard to even call the chaos gods wholly evil. They embody both the positive and negative sides of their respective aspects. Nurgle is the embodiment of disease and despair, but also of hope and healing, for example.

[Threetails]

Jerubius の投稿を引用：

SpaceGoatMage の投稿を引用：

Are you seriously saying someone like Karl Franz, Teclis or Gotrek & Felix are evil?

If you look into it, it's hard to even call the chaos gods wholly evil. They embody both the positive and negative sides of their respective aspects. Nurgle is the embodiment of disease and despair, but also of hope and healing, for example.

At this point though, the argument is basically just on a technicality.

Chaos is trying to burn down the world. The Skaven are trying to blow it up and ruthlessly butcher each other. Factions like the Ogre Kingdoms and Orcs really only care about getting what they want, IE battle/fame/food.

At least the Empire/Kislev/High Elves seem to care about protecting their homeland/citizens. In the Warhammer world, that's really all you need to do to qualify as a good faction, relative to the rest of the world. I would guess that most people view the prior listed factions as "good" factions, and I would also guess that they're among the most played factions, for a variety of reasons.

[Jerubius]

Hurricane の投稿を引用：

Jerubius の投稿を引用：

If you look into it, it's hard to even call the chaos gods wholly evil. They embody both the positive and negative sides of their respective aspects. Nurgle is the embodiment of disease and despair, but also of hope and healing, for example.

First time ive heard nurge called hope and healing haha... wtf

If anyone played mark of chaos youll get a glimpse of whats coming for chaos. Demon Prince spam meta???

It's not mentioned that often, but that's a big part of why chaos cults are so prolific. Some people turn to chaos because they have personality traits the gods can exploit, but some turn to chaos because they're in need, and the chaos gods are there to lend a hand.

[peremptor]

Jerubius の投稿を引用：

Hurricane の投稿を引用：

First time ive heard nurge called hope and healing haha... wtf

If anyone played mark of chaos youll get a glimpse of whats coming for chaos. Demon Prince spam meta???

It's not mentioned that often, but that's a big part of why chaos cults are so prolific. Some people turn to chaos because they have personality traits the gods can exploit, but some turn to chaos because they're in need, and the chaos gods are there to lend a hand.

Indeed. But it always turns out that the juice ain't worth the squeeze

[Jerubius]

peremptor の投稿を引用：

Jerubius の投稿を引用：

It's not mentioned that often, but that's a big part of why chaos cults are so prolific. Some people turn to chaos because they have personality traits the gods can exploit, but some turn to chaos because they're in need, and the chaos gods are there to lend a hand.

Indeed. But it always turns out that the juice ain't worth the squeeze :bulbhappy:

Honestly, things seem to turn out pretty okay for the people who worship chaos. Sure the corruption of chaos looks pretty grotesque to others, but those who worship chaos usually don't seem to mind it. It's not like representations in a lot of other settings where demons trick mortals into becoming eternally suffering monstrosities. Except for Tzeench, he actively does like to deceive people and exploit their ambitions.

[RCMidas]

Active worship of Chaos rarely leads to significantly negative consequences because most worshippers rarely gain enough of their gods' attention to warrant the risk - once you start to earn the right to divine favour, you start to risk devolving into a mindless gibbering Chaos Spawn with each new 'blessing'. And since nobody who worships Chaos ever truly believes that they will suffer this fate...

[Biff Buttcus]

Threetails の投稿を引用：

Biff Buttcus の投稿を引用：

Well considering this thread got over 60 replies in just a couple days, maybe it is the right thread to post in still.
But I don't care if you're Taiwanese or whatever. Well I mean, if I were to delve into history and politics which I don't want to, good on you.
But I don't like that GW and CA are trying to appeal to new markets while also forgetting their own fans. If Cathay would have been a DLC further down the road, I would be a lot happier about the situation. But it's not. Instead they were forced into a starting faction over much more deserving factions like Chorfs and Ogres. And it was very clearly done to pander to a new market over the fans. And that's offensive to fans.

That's just your opinion on the situation. But the frank truth of the matter is there are much better reasons to add Cathay as a base game faction, among them being:

1. Balance of good versus evil in the ingame factions.
2. Larger initial map, which anybody should've seen coming as something CA wanted to do.
3. DW is writing them additional lore and can make further connections with other factiosn to help sell more DLC.
4. Easier access to sell DLC for Ind/Nippon without massive changes/additions to map later on.
5. Chance for GW to finally finish up the Warhammer fantasy world and flesh out the factions they never had the chance to.
6. Players tend to overwhelmingly favor playing human/humanoid good factions, this is another one in the base game.
7. More sales due to increased appeal to chinese markets (I find this claim dubious at best, since Cathay isn't even in the trailer, lol).

In my opinion, it's been the writing on the wall that Cathay would be a base game 3 faction for a long time. I've thought Cathay would be base game for almost a year, and never once did I even consider that it would be because CA wanted to sell to China. There are plenty of good reasons to add Cathay aside from that.

But let us consider for a moment the inverse, why should we add Ogre Kingdoms/Chaos Dwarfs? Because the hardcore tabletop fandom (which is definitely less than 20% and probably less than 10% of the playerbase) wants them added? Is that the only reason you have? Pretty weak logic if so.

It's not "the fans" who are getting screwed over. It's a small subset of the community. Anyone who didn't play the tabletop probably doesn't care. And even among those who did play the tabletop I'll bet a good number don't care either. You act like somehow the entire playerbase is being scammed, when it's really only a minority who are actually impacted. And even then, it's all but certain OK/CD are coming later on, and I imagine a good number of the them will buy anyway.

And why do I say this thread is pointless? Because this thread will probably achieve nothing. People are here for the controversy, the excitement, and the arguments (me). I doubt you've changed anybody's mind, and I seriously doubt my post will change your mind. This topic has been beaten to death, but I find it entertaining to watch people argue/argue myself on forums.

you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nuts
1. Sigmar forbid the Chaos themed game in the franchise has too many Chaos themed starting factions
2. It's large enough
3. Again, it's because they're now expanding the lore all these years later just to appeal to China.
4. Ind/Nippon have even LESS relevance to Cathay. Why the hell would anyone want them?
5. Why? These factions were never fleshed out because they didn't matter. The story that mattered was between all of the western world. The Empire, the Elves, the Dwarfs, Chaos, Greenskins, etc. It never mattered what went on on the other side of the world.
6. What? This is stupid.
7. This is bad because it means a lower quality product. Every single time a franchise was changed to appeal to China, it dips in quality.

[Biff Buttcus]

Can we keep the discussion on track of why China = bad, CA and GW are pandering to them, and it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres both got shafted in favor of a literal who faction?
I don't really care so much about proper representation of the Islamic faith, Chaos god discussion, and what factions can be defined as "good".

[peremptor]

Jerubius の投稿を引用：

peremptor の投稿を引用：

Indeed. But it always turns out that the juice ain't worth the squeeze

Honestly, things seem to turn out pretty okay for the people who worship chaos. Sure the corruption of chaos looks pretty grotesque to others, but those who worship chaos usually don't seem to mind it. It's not like representations in a lot of other settings where demons trick mortals into becoming eternally suffering monstrosities. Except for Tzeench, he actively does like to deceive people and exploit their ambitions.

It's a very subjective matter I see haha.

[peremptor]

Biff Buttcus の投稿を引用：

Can we keep the discussion on track of why China = bad, CA and GW are pandering to them, and it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres both got shafted in favor of a literal who faction?
I don't really care so much about proper representation of the Islamic faith, Chaos god discussion, and what factions can be defined as "good".

So you just want some toadies that agree with you and your views on this matter. A circle jerk?

Go to reddit! :)

[DarkChaplain]

He also keeps ignoring that GW barely even does business in China at all. If I'm not mistaken, they have ONE SINGLE STORE in Shanghai, and that's it for China. Their Website does not even have China as a country selection, and while a GW-China website exists, it is barely even maintained.

China is not relevant to GW. The premise that GW is only expanding Cathay's lore to pander to a market they don't seriously do business in in the first place is just nutty.
And again, without GW signing off on Cathay, CA could not have included it at all. GW are the sole owners of their IP, and they defend it to a ridiculous degree.

[jonoliveira12]

Jerubius の投稿を引用：

peremptor の投稿を引用：

Indeed. But it always turns out that the juice ain't worth the squeeze :bulbhappy:

Honestly, things seem to turn out pretty okay for the people who worship chaos. Sure the corruption of chaos looks pretty grotesque to others, but those who worship chaos usually don't seem to mind it. It's not like representations in a lot of other settings where demons trick mortals into becoming eternally suffering monstrosities. Except for Tzeench, he actively does like to deceive people and exploit their ambitions.

No it does not. They usually get twisted beyond their limits, and end up something subhuman, in every sense of the word.