EVERSPACE™ 2

EVERSPACE™ 2

ԀΔ√!Ԁ Aug 19, 2019 @ 3:25pm
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VR support ?
like with Everspace 1...
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Well, it's probably about time to close this topic for good. First off, thank you to everyone in this thread who has listened to us as we’ve been saying that we don’t want to create a VR experience for EVERSPACE 2. We understand that you are all passionate about VR as a whole, but we are not going to spend time and resources creating this for EVERSPACE 2.

Without going too much into technical/design details or debating business cases (we’ve shared our reasoning in-depth in an earlier comment about why we don't plan to support VR in ES2), we’ve come to the conclusion that we would not be able to match high expectations of all VR players while justify spending our limited resources on a complex feature that is relevant to less than 5% of our target audience.

FWIW, the final nail in the coffin for VR in ES2 is this thread. Disrespectful comments from VR players calling our team lazy, technically incompetent—mind you this is to a veteran team that has been working their butts off to deliver best-in-class space combat games on all kinds of gaming platforms—and/or greedy because we allegedly "mislead" VR players that we'll add VR to ES2 (a never-promised feature). Even if there are VR players who only bought the first EVERSPACE because of VR support, that does not mean it is a guaranteed feature in the sequel. Frankly, many of the comments here show a level of entitlement that is off-putting to a team that really does find VR an exciting platform, and two studio founders willing to invest a six-digit budget in VR out of their own pockets.

Our PR folks are probably pulling their hair out right now—I've been called out for poor communication to VR users before, but I genuinely don't care anymore—if any gruntled VR user is still reading, ask yourself WHY in the world should any indie developer get excited about putting their house on the line to make significant changes to their game to support a heavily fragmented platform for a single-digit percentage audience? This is especially difficult when the feature asked for is led by a vocal minority with utterly unrealistic expectations as if the title was designed as a VR-only game, and frequently shows a complete lack of understanding of what it takes to properly implement VR, also often paired with outright false perceptions of how the gaming business works.

On a personal level, the audacity of some hardcore VR fans calling me out for being patronizing while I genuinely wanted to openly share our reasoning about our business decision which was based on deep market research and our own internal data at the beginning of this thread—arguably quite rare in the gaming industry—was just the beginning. Meanwhile, we’re at a tipping point: the bridges are burned, and I couldn't genuinely care less about any business consequences due to not supporting VR in ES2. Even if the business decision might hurt my own pocket as is claimed throughout this thread, at this point, I am more concerned about protecting our team from toxic community feedback than delivering the next big VR title.

/Michael

PS: This post has passed our PR police, so this is no joke!

Edit PPS: Adding some of my previous responses to the VR community for a more complete picture about our reasoning:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=13#c4625714282752092927
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=44#c3108014879953931549
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=45#c3108014879954187891
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=46#c3108014879954962740
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=71#c3123786356710459872
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Showing 676-690 of 1,709 comments
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:57pm 
Originally posted by D'Shanz:
Man, here are Michael's exact words TO YOU

"As you can read in the pinned response of this thread, we ruled out having optional VR in ES2, but that we will have a look at the topic after full release if a standalone, fully optimized VR version might be a good business decision, or rather spend our limited resources in adding more content and features to the "pancake" version."

Let me try to make it even clearer:

"we ruled out having optional VR in ES2" <-- Means VR WON'T be in this title

"but that we will ... release a standalone, fully optimized VR version" <-- Means they will release a separate product (maybe)

FFS man, what are you on?

I missed the part where he mentioned standalone so I'll give you that, but he meant it as an option:

"or rather spend our limited resources in adding more content and features to the "pancake" version"

He means they'll decide what they're doing after the release of V1.0, whether that be creating a standalone VR game or adding features like VR to the existing build, just like they did with ES1.

Apparantly the argument against VR has been the expectation from some of the community for a full-fat VR port when noone in this thread has expressed a desire for one.

We then went on to discuss that nobody has mentioned here the desire for a fully fledged motion control version (discussing keyboard, hotas and controller support) and that HMD functionality in the current game would please most people.

Context. My criticism of your review is that you've dealt with absolutes, like VR will only be a thing as a standalone and they've said they're definitely not adding it as a feature, which just isn't true.
Last edited by Comrade; Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:03pm
💎 Andy 💎 Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:04pm 
Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:
Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:
"OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE."
Quite literally.

"In what world, galaxy, dimension.
Is NOT adding HMD gamepad / HOTAS, a "business decision, that makes any sense?"
(Again) From your standpoint, or (the massively enthusiastic fans) AKA.. ours?

Sorry but have to interject here, you can't keep using the difference between Subnautica and Below Zero as a barometer for VR popularity in a franchise. There are many factors which can affect a lower rating/amount of sales for Below Zero, one of which being that Below Zero is still in early access and isn't finished.

What Michael means is

Erm.. Yep... I really can make a comparison.
1- SN = With VR option = loved, and huge purchases.
2- SN2 = No VR option = not loved, and way.. WAY less purchases..

Sure there are "differences" in the game. Or I would hope so, as subzero is, well, the "second" game"... So y'know.. its... its a, "different game."
(I didn't buy SNSZ, simply because it doesn't have..... well, you know...)

And..
The..... "its still not finished." chestnut...
I'm sorry.... I will try to forgo being sarky here.

But it was released, pretty fleshed-out, way way back in January 2019...
2 years ago.. Not last month.
So that argument just doesn't hold water.. "Even frozen water."

Oh and.
"What Michael means." ....
Really? :steammocking: :Steamfacepalm:

Thank you Michael's proxy.

No hate man, but that did make me smile. 🤭
Last edited by 💎 Andy 💎; Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:09pm
D'Shanz Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:05pm 
Ok yeah, I literally just reread that part before you posted, and I'll actually admit that I misread:

"or rather spend our limited resources in adding more content and features to the "pancake" version." (which implies they may decide later)

as

"rather than spend our limited resources in adding more content and features to the "pancake" version." (which implies they'd rather not spend any of their "limited resources" at all)

which seemed like a naturally conclusion to that sentence.

My interpretation still stands, but they haven't put out as hard of an anti-inclusive stance as I first interpreted, so thanks for helping me to understand that, but you haven't invalidated my opinion and review and I feel it's still important to make their decision be known. I'll make a minor edit to it to rectify it accordingly.
Last edited by D'Shanz; Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:07pm
PandabaconVR Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:10pm 
You should implement a VR feature. With games out like squadrons and the fact you had it in the first Everspace its kind of lazy to not implement it. This game would be extremely playable in VR.
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:36pm 
Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:
And..
The..... "its still not finished." chestnut...
I'm sorry.... I will try to forgo being sarky here.

But it was released, pretty fleshed-out, way way back in January 2019...
2 years ago.. Not last month.
So that argument just doesn't hold water.. "Even frozen water."

It does. That's literally what Early Access is. Incomplete and unfinished. A lot of people even say that it's better to play the original first because it gives context to Below Zero. You can't attribute the entire difference in sales and popularity between two games to VR alone. Especially considering the one less favourable isn't finished and is a spinoff of the main game, Subnautica, not Subnautica 2 like you refer to it. The most simple explanation is that not everyone who bought Subnautica will be interested in Below Zero because they didn't like the original, or people are waiting for sales, or people are waiting for it to be officially released, or are waiting to finish the original before moving on etc. VR support will overall be a small subsection of the Venn Diagram that covers "Reasons people haven't bought both games", not the sole reason people haven't bought it like you suggest. Like Nisverah said "correlation is not causation".

Oh and.
"What Michael means." ....
Really? :steammocking: :Steamfacepalm:

Thank you Michael's proxy.

I'm not doing it to speak for Michael, you can see he's capable of doing that himself. I'm doing it for your benefit since you seem to be flogging the dead horse while everyone else has taken on board what's been said stepped back. Telling the developers their entire success hinges on the inclusion of VR, when by all accounts ES2 is breaking sales expectations (go check it out, the current peak is already double the all time peak for ES1) doesn't make your argument for including VR a compelling one.

And I'm on your side here, I want VR in the game. But using logical fallacies and comparisons between different games doesn't help our argument, it frustrates it.
Last edited by Comrade; Jan 20, 2021 @ 1:47pm
MaGicBush Jan 20, 2021 @ 2:33pm 
I would never want to use motion controls on a game like this. There's a reason Elite, and Star Wars do not use motion controls. HMD, HOTAS, keyboard & mouse options are just fine. I am not sure where the developer read that everyone wants a full VR port.
Mile Jan 20, 2021 @ 2:41pm 
Bunch of over entitled VR cry babies. Just because you bought overpriced hardware to play in a virtual never-land does not mean developers have to support it. Just like how 3D died off cause no one wanted to support it in the development cause the actual lack of consumers who had it vs people who did not have it vs the cost of developing it as well.
D'Shanz Jan 20, 2021 @ 2:46pm 
Originally posted by TheRealMile:
Bunch of over entitled VR cry babies. Just because you bought overpriced hardware to play in a virtual never-land does not mean developers have to support it. Just like how 3D died off cause no one wanted to support it in the development cause the actual lack of consumers who had it vs people who did not have it vs the cost of developing it as well.

Funny you should mention 3D. The only reason I haven't refunded is because I'm making a 3D fix for this game instead (for those that are familiar with the HelixMod community, I'm the member known as DJ-RK there, and have made several 3DVision compatibility fixes, including a fix for the original Everspace), so I, personally, am not just another crybaby, but rather a person who does what he can for himself and others, but I'm also outspoken about things I'm passionate about, as is the case here.

I guess now that the cat's out of the bag, for those of you that have 3D Vision hardware, expect a fix to be released by this weekend.
Last edited by D'Shanz; Jan 20, 2021 @ 2:47pm
Mile Jan 20, 2021 @ 2:46pm 
Originally posted by The_Free_Dom:
Originally posted by UndrcvrKiLLeR:

Wait did i do it wrong? Was i supposed to insult your mother? or make some simp reference? or belittle your no life achievements? becuase if so let me ask my mom to take the parental controls off the pc real fast so i can. that is if i can get her to come down stairs. she doesnt like to come down to the basement since the indecent incident we had the last time she took off the parental controls and forgot to put them back on.

:lol: With that much Call of Duty XP, I expected you to have done at least back to my great great grandmother.


Imagine insulting someones comment over a game they played. Just goes to show how insecure of a person you really are. Grow the F up
Neomerlinux Jan 20, 2021 @ 3:00pm 
Anyone who ever wore a HMD and still says its just a 3D monitor strapped to your head didnt really see a true virtual reality experience while wearing it. Point. End of discussion.
SagacityX1 Jan 20, 2021 @ 3:10pm 
Sucks, I would only buy this for VR.
ROCKFISH Games  [developer] Jan 20, 2021 @ 3:16pm 
Originally posted by D'Shanz:
Alright, so since I've already bought they game, but can't abide by RFG's decision and their attitude, I've used my situation to the best of my ability and I've left my first ever negative review.

I've detailed the exact situation as it is (and a little bit of my opinion/interpretation thereof), to hopefully inform more people that wouldn't make it to the forum and find out that they are stripping this game of the VR content.

I've encouraged those that read to join us here in adding their "no VR, no buy" to the many others here. I'd also like to invite those in this discussion that want this to gain more visibility to read my review and to mark it as helpful.
First off, thanks for purchasing our game. However, review bombing us is not the answer here. Without your negative review, EVERSPACE 2 would sit at 95% positive out of 500+ reviews, showing "overwhelmingly positive" on the store page, instead of 94% positive reviews and thus just "very positive". So this hurts us a lot already.

Calling for other VR users to review bomb our game will cause even more damage to our business. You might want to reconsider if that is the right thing to do to get what YOU want, bearing in mind that we are a 100% self-funded indie studio. If things go sideways, we don't have any big VC, AAA publisher, or VR platform owner to pay the bills. Even if that might not be your concern, ask yourself if what you're doing is helping your cause. Acts like this do not promote VR as a place for indie developers to create.

We've heard the VR community loud and clear in that you all want as many space sim games to play in VR as possible. However, it was with careful consideration, not to support VR in EVERSPACE 2. We would very much appreciate if our business decision was respected by the VR community, especially since we openly shared our reasoning with you guys. /Michael
Wallis Jan 20, 2021 @ 3:34pm 
i hate motion controllers too, I just use xbox controller on any vr game that gives me the option to. i dont play nms now cos they added no option for controller , only mc's. i would love to play this with hmd and 360 controller. but hey if its not then its not , as long as they keep out the time limits im fine i guess, but would still +1 for vr.
katan390 Jan 20, 2021 @ 3:38pm 
I'd definitely buy this if it had VR support. I can understand if you don't want to go in that direction, but I think you would be creating an even bigger player base now and in the future by doing so. I always wanted a game like freelancer but better, but a better game than freelancer and in VR? I think I may have soiled myself.........and gladly! :steamhappy:
D'Shanz Jan 20, 2021 @ 3:51pm 
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Originally posted by D'Shanz:
Alright, so since I've already bought they game, but can't abide by RFG's decision and their attitude, I've used my situation to the best of my ability and I've left my first ever negative review.

I've detailed the exact situation as it is (and a little bit of my opinion/interpretation thereof), to hopefully inform more people that wouldn't make it to the forum and find out that they are stripping this game of the VR content.

I've encouraged those that read to join us here in adding their "no VR, no buy" to the many others here. I'd also like to invite those in this discussion that want this to gain more visibility to read my review and to mark it as helpful.
First off, thanks for purchasing our game. However, review bombing us is not the answer here. Without your negative review, EVERSPACE 2 would sit at 95% positive out of 500+ reviews, showing "overwhelmingly positive" on the store page, instead of 94% positive reviews and thus just "very positive". So this hurts us a lot already.

Calling for other VR users to review bomb our game will cause even more damage to our business. You might want to reconsider if that is the right thing to do to get what YOU want, bearing in mind that we are a 100% self-funded indie studio. If things go sideways, we don't have any big VC, AAA publisher, or VR platform owner to pay the bills. Even if that might not be your concern, ask yourself if what you're doing is helping your cause. Acts like this do not promote VR as a place for indie developers to create.

We've heard the VR community loud and clear in that you all want as many space sim games to play in VR as possible. However, it was with careful consideration, not to support VR in EVERSPACE 2. We would very much appreciate if our business decision was respected by the VR community, especially since we openly shared our reasoning with you guys. /Michael

Hello Michael,

Firstly, I have not made a call out for anyone else to review bomb this game. Rather, I made a call out for those that were originally interested, but no longer after learning of your decision, to simply let you know in this thread. I've also stated that I do want the game to succeed. I've not lambasted the game at all in my review, and gave a glowing review of ES1 and your company in the process.

I cannot, however, abide by your decision. I understand it, but do not accept it. Fine, you're making a business decision, "nothing personal," yadda yadda. You said one of the reasons you've decided not to include VR support is fear of bad reviews of a subpar implementation. Ok, fine, but what about the backlash from removing a beloved feature? Did you somehow actually think that would not occur?

Simply put, removing a feature IS lazy, is anti-consumer/supporter, and IS going to stir up some bad media for you as well. The fact that you are in this thread at all is a testament that there is a sizeable enough response on this decision, and I personally hope that only continues to grow. You should be proud of your work and willing to make it the best product possible. We want to play your game, in VR, and in it's full glory. You should want to make that happen, not keep trying to tell us why we shouldn't want what we want.

So sorry, review stands and your Overwhelmingly Positive review gone along with it, for now, until you hopefully please enough pancake players to out-vote my review.

Or, y'know, you can realise the folly this decision is bringing, and maybe reconsider your position. Dreams can come true!

Edit: Oh, and lastly you ask whether me hurting your business with my review is helpful, well, like I shared in my previous comment in this thread, I'm actually making a 3D Vision compatibility fix for this game (and did so for Everspace 1 years ago), so I can guarantee you that I, personally, will and have helped influence others towards purchasing your games, absolutely free of charge. Your welcome.
Last edited by D'Shanz; Jan 20, 2021 @ 4:13pm
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