EVERSPACE™ 2

EVERSPACE™ 2

ԀΔ√!Ԁ Aug 19, 2019 @ 3:25pm
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VR support ?
like with Everspace 1...
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Well, it's probably about time to close this topic for good. First off, thank you to everyone in this thread who has listened to us as we’ve been saying that we don’t want to create a VR experience for EVERSPACE 2. We understand that you are all passionate about VR as a whole, but we are not going to spend time and resources creating this for EVERSPACE 2.

Without going too much into technical/design details or debating business cases (we’ve shared our reasoning in-depth in an earlier comment about why we don't plan to support VR in ES2), we’ve come to the conclusion that we would not be able to match high expectations of all VR players while justify spending our limited resources on a complex feature that is relevant to less than 5% of our target audience.

FWIW, the final nail in the coffin for VR in ES2 is this thread. Disrespectful comments from VR players calling our team lazy, technically incompetent—mind you this is to a veteran team that has been working their butts off to deliver best-in-class space combat games on all kinds of gaming platforms—and/or greedy because we allegedly "mislead" VR players that we'll add VR to ES2 (a never-promised feature). Even if there are VR players who only bought the first EVERSPACE because of VR support, that does not mean it is a guaranteed feature in the sequel. Frankly, many of the comments here show a level of entitlement that is off-putting to a team that really does find VR an exciting platform, and two studio founders willing to invest a six-digit budget in VR out of their own pockets.

Our PR folks are probably pulling their hair out right now—I've been called out for poor communication to VR users before, but I genuinely don't care anymore—if any gruntled VR user is still reading, ask yourself WHY in the world should any indie developer get excited about putting their house on the line to make significant changes to their game to support a heavily fragmented platform for a single-digit percentage audience? This is especially difficult when the feature asked for is led by a vocal minority with utterly unrealistic expectations as if the title was designed as a VR-only game, and frequently shows a complete lack of understanding of what it takes to properly implement VR, also often paired with outright false perceptions of how the gaming business works.

On a personal level, the audacity of some hardcore VR fans calling me out for being patronizing while I genuinely wanted to openly share our reasoning about our business decision which was based on deep market research and our own internal data at the beginning of this thread—arguably quite rare in the gaming industry—was just the beginning. Meanwhile, we’re at a tipping point: the bridges are burned, and I couldn't genuinely care less about any business consequences due to not supporting VR in ES2. Even if the business decision might hurt my own pocket as is claimed throughout this thread, at this point, I am more concerned about protecting our team from toxic community feedback than delivering the next big VR title.

/Michael

PS: This post has passed our PR police, so this is no joke!

Edit PPS: Adding some of my previous responses to the VR community for a more complete picture about our reasoning:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=13#c4625714282752092927
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=44#c3108014879953931549
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=45#c3108014879954187891
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=46#c3108014879954962740
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=71#c3123786356710459872
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Showing 661-675 of 1,709 comments
ROCKFISH Games  [developer] Jan 20, 2021 @ 10:14am 
Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
I understand frustration because there have been plenty of people in this thread making unreasonable comments and accusing while not paying attention to what's being pinned. You'll even see this morning I advocated for civil discussion because you said it could still be considered after V1.

I don't think anyone expects quality of a stand alone VR game with support for motion controls though, and anyone who is really doesn't understand what the game itself is about, just some head tracking support with a HMD like you're planning with TrackIR and like you did for the first game, like a companion to the alt-look in cockpit view.
Unfortunately, that was exactly one of the issues with the predecessor, and we've read "demanding full VR support incl. motion VR motion controllers" for ES2 in several places on the internet already. /Michael

Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 10:32am 
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Unfortunately, that was exactly one of the issues with the predecessor, and we've read "demanding full VR support incl. motion VR motion controllers" for ES2 in several places on the internet already. /Michael

I'll concede from the standpoint of a VR functionality advocate that that's unrealistic.

We have controller, mouse and keyboard and HOTAS support. Really don't see why full motion tracking of controllers would be necessary at all, let alone an enjoyable control scheme.

I understand NMS uses motion controls, but NMS isn't a fast-paced arcade-style action space shooter. SW Squadrons and Elite Dangerous don't even incorporate motion controls.

Alas if you're still going to consider head tracking after the release of 1.0 that's good enough for me.
The_Free_Dom Jan 20, 2021 @ 10:36am 
Partial VR support in the form of HMD compatibility would be a sale from me.
Fdruid Jan 20, 2021 @ 11:02am 
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Well, happy to share more background information and shed more light on our decision about not to support VR in Everspace 2 for the time being.

We recently pulled stats from the Steam Hardware Survey of the original Everspace owners, featuring optional VR support. The amount of VR headsets is less than 10% even though VR was a major selling point during our first Kickstarter in 2015 and the original Everspace being featured on the Steam front page together with other VR titles several times.

To make things worse for us as developers, only the top four most common VR headsets make up for 1% to 2% each and 6.5% combined; every other model is below 0.6%. Meaning, an already fairly small market is also heavily fragmented - and we haven't talked about VR users probably being more likely to participate in the Steam Hardware Survey than average PC gamers, so chances are the actual percentage is even lower.

In comparison to that, Xbox and PlayStation account for roughly 40% of the original Everspace's lifetime revenue (bearing in mind the game launched a year later on PS4).

In combination with the fact that a rock-solid VR port of Everspace 2 would require significantly more effort than porting the game to Xbox and PlayStation (we are talking about an investment of at least two man-years of development), plus all the marketing challenges that come with optional VR support (we already talked about those in detail), we hope that everyone can understand that we won't even be looking into making a VR version of Everspace 2 before its full release on PC and consoles in 2022.

TL;DR
If you want to do VR right, you have to look at it and treat it as an entirely new gaming platform. However, the significant technical and game design challenges of VR, in combination with a single-digit percentage and heavily fragmented install base, simply don't make a promising business case, at least for the next three years.

So, unless being backed by a VC, publisher or VR platform holder, chances are as an independent studio betting heavily on VR today, you will be out of business or weakened your position in your core market position that you have to go through a fire sale before you run out of cash if things don't go so well as planned (we have been there, not pretty.).

Now, I want to close this subject on a high note, though: We will be looking at VR again in 2022. But first, we have to deliver a rock-solid open-world space shooter RPG for PC and consoles which already is by far the biggest project we have ever worked on in over 27 years. And yes, we will support fully customizable HOTAS support as well as ultrawide and triple-screen setups, and TrackIR at some point during Steam Early Access.

/Michael

Thanks for the response.

You're not willing to invest resorces in implementing VR, for whatever reasons. It's fine.

It's definitely one of the few reasons I would have bought this game and caught my interest.

So now I have this information I will probably wait for another sale for the first game and buy that one, really cheap. Or a game that does have the features I want. I might buy this game further down the line, when in 3 or four years it's on sale at a huge discount.
david Jan 20, 2021 @ 11:15am 
+1 VR - the original is still one of my favourite VR games.

Offer it as DLC on pre-order and see if people are willing to pay for it I guess.
dunninger Jan 20, 2021 @ 11:17am 
Well, we all may be giving this game a pass, but ES1 is still a great game in VR, largely ignored by the broader VR community, but well worth the full price. I have been a long time advocate of ES1, and when I say to my VR friends 'Have you tried Everspace?' - the reply is almost always 'No, what's that?' - so, in this regard, I certainly feel RFG's pain. The made a great VR game, but for one reason or another, it was largely ignored. I would still rather play ES1 over Squadrons, as it has (for me) a more engaging game loop.

On the issue of controller support for *all* VR games. I will roll with what I get. If the game is good, then you are simply unaware of having anything in your hands at all. If you are thinking 'hey, why am I holding a Xbox controller?' - I would argue that the game itself is lacking.
Signor Lama Jan 20, 2021 @ 11:56am 
I stopped playing ES1 thinking "hey that's a nice start, VR is amazing, let's wait for the whole package with ES2" and nope. how disappointing. won't have my money and uninstalling ES1 right now. sorry guys but wrong decision. Game industry needs to push VR and brand new experiences, without that "extra" this is just another boring, flat, 3d shooter. farewell
💎 Andy 💎 Jan 20, 2021 @ 11:57am 
@Michael. ROCKFISH

Again, said with respect.

I am not sure if you read through this post, that I wrote.. ⤵⤵ (Linked below)
That Treebs reposed, and then you replied on.--

(And please excuse me mentioning another game, it is in a positive nature, nothing negative.)
And I specifically mention this game, and Dev team.
Because they too are a "semi indie," very competent, skilled group of devs.. Like yourselves.
As well as being a game, where you can pilot a lot of different vehicles.

--if you did. (read it.)
And saw the WHOPPING numbers gap between Subnautica 1- (with VR) and 2-(without it.)

There are two very "justifiable points for the implementation of VR in ES2."

I hope you read, and consider these. They are both unequivocal.

Point one.

90+% of the "VR owners who are asking for VR implementation, are not in the slightest bothered, or expecting "motion controller support... Fact.
(Would it be nice...sure.)
However, given the choice between...
👍🏼Game pad, and or HOTAS, with the HMD.
👎🏼Or no VR....
I dont even need to complete this sentence... do I.

Seeing as this is a Space ship game, and Gamepad /HOTAS is awesome, with the HMD.
I am not sure what you read. Or who the "motion controller zealots" were, that screwed it for everyone else...
Both...
🥽🕹🎮 "The VR gamers, and "instant purchasers." If ES2 had HMD, with gamepad /HOTAS support.
As well as..
💲 You ROCKFISH Devs. from reaping the rewards of that "extra mile implementing it.

In conclusion to point one.
The vast majority of VR owners, just want ES2, in VR, using a gamepad, and or HOTAS.

But be assured, if you do reconsider, and bring VR in the form of "HMD VR."
You WILL see a surge in sales, as a game, and kudos as a company, for listening to your fans /supporters.

Point two.
⭐And here we get back to Subnautica.
But you are probably ahead of me already.

Those numbers. ⤵⤵⤵⤵⤵⤵⤵⤵⤵⤵ Down there, in that post linked below.
They are FACT.

And ........ Subnautica, does NOT have motion controller support. Whether in vehicles or even out.
And the response from the VR community is .. well...
"OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE."
Quite literally.

SO, and this is not rhetorical.
Question for you Michael, and your team..

"In what world, galaxy, dimension.
Is NOT adding HMD gamepad / HOTAS, a "business decision, that makes any sense?"
(Again) From your standpoint, or (the massively enthusiastic fans) AKA.. ours?


Originally posted by Treebs:
Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:

The following is said with respect.
And is a direct reply to your post.

🥽1. But so many other developers have.
AAA, to indie, one-persons devs.
From...
Space games, like- Star Wars Squadrons / Elite Dangerous /HOTDS / CDF star fighter / NO Mans Sky, etc, etc.
To..
Car / Truck Games, like- Project Cars, (series) Dirt (series) Truck Simulator U.s and European. Asseto Corsa / Distance, and on and on.
To..
So many other titles. like - ALYX, Subnautica, SuperHot, and so so many more.
All of Those, and all the other devs,
"brought the "optional VR support. And dealt with the marketing consequences/challenges."

🥽2. What is said in this thread, about the "big game engines UE4, and Unity bending over backwards to facilitate developers implementing VR" is a fact.

🥽3. MANY, not all... but many, people who bought ES1, and the fame / kudos attained for Rockfish was due, to VR.

🥽4. VR both in numbers sold, and progression in gaming, has come a long way since you guys launched ES1.

🥽5. Rockfish "obviously" have a dedicated following among the VR community from ES1.
Even from the "booming reaction" of those who have bothered to post on this thread alone,- (as we all know that not everyone posts on the forums, are anywhere near the numbers of those who just purchase "The games." on Steam)
And yet the (you) chose to completely ignore these fans / supporters of Rockfish, and your previous game.

🥽6. The sheer number of HMDs that were sold OUT, and on back order. And I do mean every single HMD from the Rift's to Valves own Index, And everything in between, this last year.
Things have changed, and are changing the "Mainstream status" of this technology..

🥽7. Whether from a financial, / loyalty, / and even a "future proofing stand point.
Whoever decided not to go the extra mile, and not to include VR in ES2, it was a faux pas.

🥽 8..
And just to make reference once more, to another team of talented devs like you guys.

Who made the same mistake... Just for comparison.
Lets look at the numbers.....

Subnautica, WITH - VR. (not motion controller, just game pad) VS the second game Subnautica "Sub zero" <--(there's a joke in there, but I will refrain.)
And...
Just take a look at the WHOPPING! difference, in sales, reviews, AND degree of reviews.

Subnautica 1....... WITH - VR.
Release Date Jan 2018
(Only 1 year earlier than the second one below.)
And remember, they were an unknown.... Without the following that the second should have capitalized on.


145k (thats ---> One hundred and forty-five thousand) reviews.
(Circa 117k MORE reviews..- (Not sales, just reviews,) -than the second game when they dropped VR.)
All..." Overwhelmingly Positive"

Subnautica Sub Zero....... WITHOUT - VR.
Release Date Jan 2019.
28 (twenty-eight thousand) reviews (Again.. 117k less reviews than SN1)
And "very positive"


If this isn't a "cautionary tale" I'm not sure what is. 🤔

Agan all said with due respect.
I / we would not be here if I / we didnt love your work. But want it, / will purchase it, as it was in ES1... With the option of VR. 🥽

Exactly this. Well said and written. The developers pathetic response in this thread is quite sad really. This discussion should highlight to them how many people are passionate about their game and want to enjoy it at it's best (VR and a joystick). The VR market has doubled in size since the last game implemented VR, which they did a poor job with on the first game anyway.

If they actually invested in hiring people to implement VRt properly it would massively boost sales for the game and bring in a whole new audience. If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:
Unfortunately, that was exactly one of the issues with the predecessor, and we've read "demanding full VR support incl. motion VR motion controllers" for ES2 in several places on the internet already. /Michael


Last edited by 💎 Andy 💎; Jan 20, 2021 @ 11:58am
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:14pm 
Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:
"OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE."
Quite literally.

"In what world, galaxy, dimension.
Is NOT adding HMD gamepad / HOTAS, a "business decision, that makes any sense?"
(Again) From your standpoint, or (the massively enthusiastic fans) AKA.. ours?

Sorry but have to interject here, you can't keep using the difference between Subnautica and Below Zero as a barometer for VR popularity in a franchise. There are many factors which can affect a lower rating/amount of sales for Below Zero, one of which being that Below Zero is still in early access and isn't finished.

And regarding VR implementation being a business decision: every aspect of game development takes man-hours. What Michael means is that there's a fine balance between spending the time and resources on developing a feature and the amount of projected revenue said feature will garner. I develop apps for the company I work for and often deciding whether to include a feature is based on the amount of time it will take to develop versus the amount of time it will save the end user. While in my role I won't be paid any different for what I develop, I do have to factor in if it would be worth me spending 16 hours implementing functionality that will only save 1 hour total over the apps lifetime use.
Nisverah Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:18pm 
Originally posted by Treebs:
If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.
VR players have got to be some of the most needy I've seen, the dev statement did not come off as disrespectful in the slightest, and made plenty enough reasoning as to why they'd wait until release or 2022 to worry about VR.

Also this whole Subnautica comparison is wild considering in the end, Sub Zero is not a main series game and was lacking in plenty of areas aside from VR. Just remember that correlation is not causation, there are other factors than VR, and I'm positive VR was a minor factor in the overwhelmingly positive reviews.
D'Shanz Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:28pm 
Alright, so since I've already bought they game, but can't abide by RFG's decision and their attitude, I've used my situation to the best of my ability and I've left my first ever negative review.

I've detailed the exact situation as it is (and a little bit of my opinion/interpretation thereof), to hopefully inform more people that wouldn't make it to the forum and find out that they are stripping this game of the VR content.

I've encouraged those that read to join us here in adding their "no VR, no buy" to the many others here. I'd also like to invite those in this discussion that want this to gain more visibility to read my review and to mark it as helpful.
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:38pm 
Originally posted by D'Shanz:
I've detailed the exact situation as it is (and a little bit of my opinion/interpretation thereof), to hopefully inform more people that wouldn't make it to the forum and find out that they are stripping this game of the VR content.

Unfortunately your "little bit" of interpretation is wrong.
Nowhere have they said they're not considering VR at all and they've said they'll consider adding it as a feature to the game after the 1.0 release - they've said nothing to even suggest they'll double-dip with a standalone VR version like you mention in your review. They're not "stripping" VR from the game either because it wasn't here in the first place.

If you're going to write a review slamming a game for something, could you at least make sure you're slamming it for something that's actually happening?

Otherwise you just harm the argument you're trying to make.
Last edited by Comrade; Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:41pm
D'Shanz Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:41pm 
Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:
Originally posted by D'Shanz:
I've detailed the exact situation as it is (and a little bit of my opinion/interpretation thereof), to hopefully inform more people that wouldn't make it to the forum and find out that they are stripping this game of the VR content.

Unfortunately your "little bit" of interpretation is wrong.
Nowhere have they said they're not considering VR at all and they've said they'll consider adding it as a feature to the game after the 1.0 release - they've said nothing to even suggest they'll double-dip with a standalone VR version like you mention in your review.

If you're going to write a review slamming a game for something, could you at least make sure you're slamming it for something that's actually happening?

Otherwise you just harm the argument you're trying to make.

Dude, read Michael's latest response. He has literally made it clear they are not adding VR to ES2, but will only consider releasing standalone. If you're going to call me out on something at least get your facts straight.

And as far as I'm concerned, yes, it IS stripping a feature when it existed in the previous title. You're free to have your own opinion on that, this is mine.
Last edited by D'Shanz; Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:45pm
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:48pm 
Originally posted by D'Shanz:
Dude, read Michael's latest response. He has literally made it clear they are not adding VR to ES2, but will only consider releasing standalone. If you're going to call me out on something at least get your facts straight.

Dude, read the thread and don't take a single comment out of its context. I know what Michael's comments were because I was the one replying to him and followed up. Go back and check from the one below.

Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:

Just to clarify, have we gone from:
"We will be looking at VR again in 2022"
to:
"we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to"
?

The plan is still to revisit it as a feature in 2022 after the release of V1.0. Where do you get the info on a standalone version from?
Last edited by Comrade; Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:49pm
D'Shanz Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:49pm 
Man, here are Michael's exact words TO YOU

"As you can read in the pinned response of this thread, we ruled out having optional VR in ES2, but that we will have a look at the topic after full release if a standalone, fully optimized VR version might be a good business decision, or rather spend our limited resources in adding more content and features to the "pancake" version."

Let me try to make it even clearer:

"we ruled out having optional VR in ES2" <-- Means VR WON'T be in this title

"but that we will ... release a standalone, fully optimized VR version" <-- Means they will release a separate product (maybe)

FFS man, what are you on? Telling me that *I* can't interpret when the man LITERALLY told YOU SPECIFICALLY what I said in my review. Sheesh

Last edited by D'Shanz; Jan 20, 2021 @ 12:52pm
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