VR support ?

[▷▲▽𝗶◁]

like with Everspace 1...

[Typhoon]

Originally posted by Edifier:

Beat saber is popular, no doubt about that but Half-Life Alyx had way more players at launch than Beat Saber did. 10 times higher.

It's also important to note that according to those links you posted, it's estimated that up 300K more steam accounts actually own Beat Saber.

Again, this is only in Steam. As Orchestructive said, those figures don't account for people who own the Oculus Store or Quest versions.

Beat Saber has sold more copies overall.

[Thundercleez]

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

and we haven't talked about VR users probably being more likely to participate in the Steam Hardware Survey than average PC gamer

Based on what? As a VR owner, I always opt out of the survey when it pops up.

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

If you want to do VR right, you have to look at it and treat it as an entirely new gaming platform.

It is great when that is done, but even just headset + a standard controller/keyboard support would be fantastic.

[FanZeroEx]

Originally posted by dunninger:

"Don't like it? Don't buy it - simple."
Totally agree.
Surely the same metric applies to: 'Don't like what people are saying - don't read it.'
?

Sure if you consider an optional feature in game as equal to one of the fundamental forms of communication. Also how do you know if you like what you read before reading it? By the way my post does not invalidate or dismiss the feature request or the discussion about it whatsoever. The question was raised and dev explained their stance rather thoroughly. And they even considering it after finishing the planned scope of the project. Throwing tantrums and insults help with the disccusion exactly how? Calling devs lazy, unskilled and so on will convince them to implement the feature? Declaring to not buy the game will magically make the devs to discard their initial plans? It's fine to disagree with decisions of the devs just not in a way some of the posters here do.

[dunninger]

"Throwing tantrums and insults help with the disccusion exactly how? Calling devs lazy, unskilled and so on will convince them to implement the feature?"
and
' It's fine to disagree with decisions of the devs just not in a way some of the posters here do.'

Here, we are in total agreement. Therefore, I do not want to invalidate your point. However, this vitriol has come from both sides. I think we can agree on this also.
If I have no interest in an a particular aspect of gaming (I can think of many), I never feel the need to comment on it.
Again, I am in broad agreement with the point you made in your last post.

[Treebs]

Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

Funny how many ppl on this thread think they know so much better than we but have never developed a quality 3D space combat with optional VR support and had to deal with the marketing consequences/challenges when it's an official feature. Just saying... /Michael

The following is said with respect.
And is a direct reply to your post.

🥽1. But so many other developers have.
AAA, to indie, one-persons devs.
From...
Space games, like- Star Wars Squadrons / Elite Dangerous /HOTDS / CDF star fighter / NO Mans Sky, etc, etc.
To..
Car / Truck Games, like- Project Cars, (series) Dirt (series) Truck Simulator U.s and European. Asseto Corsa / Distance, and on and on.
To..
So many other titles. like - ALYX, Subnautica, SuperHot, and so so many more.
All of Those, and all the other devs,
"brought the "optional VR support. And dealt with the marketing consequences/challenges."

🥽2. What is said in this thread, about the "big game engines UE4, and Unity bending over backwards to facilitate developers implementing VR" is a fact.

🥽3. MANY, not all... but many, people who bought ES1, and the fame / kudos attained for Rockfish was due, to VR.

🥽4. VR both in numbers sold, and progression in gaming, has come a long way since you guys launched ES1.

🥽5. Rockfish "obviously" have a dedicated following among the VR community from ES1.
Even from the "booming reaction" of those who have bothered to post on this thread alone,- (as we all know that not everyone posts on the forums, are anywhere near the numbers of those who just purchase "The games." on Steam)
And yet the (you) chose to completely ignore these fans / supporters of Rockfish, and your previous game.

🥽6. The sheer number of HMDs that were sold OUT, and on back order. And I do mean every single HMD from the Rift's to Valves own Index, And everything in between, this last year.
Things have changed, and are changing the "Mainstream status" of this technology..

🥽7. Whether from a financial, / loyalty, / and even a "future proofing stand point.
Whoever decided not to go the extra mile, and not to include VR in ES2, it was a faux pas.

🥽 8..
And just to make reference once more, to another team of talented devs like you guys.

Who made the same mistake... Just for comparison.
Lets look at the numbers.....

Subnautica, WITH - VR. (not motion controller, just game pad) VS the second game Subnautica "Sub zero" <--(there's a joke in there, but I will refrain.)
And...
Just take a look at the WHOPPING! difference, in sales, reviews, AND degree of reviews.

Subnautica 1....... WITH - VR.
Release Date Jan 2018
(Only 1 year earlier than the second one below.)
And remember, they were an unknown.... Without the following that the second should have capitalized on.

145k (thats ---> One hundred and forty-five thousand) reviews.
(Circa 117k MORE reviews..- (Not sales, just reviews,) -than the second game when they dropped VR.)
All..." Overwhelmingly Positive"

Subnautica Sub Zero....... WITHOUT - VR.
Release Date Jan 2019.
28 (twenty-eight thousand) reviews (Again.. 117k less reviews than SN1)
And "very positive"

If this isn't a "cautionary tale" I'm not sure what is. 🤔

Agan all said with due respect.

I / we would not be here if I / we didnt love your work. But want it, / will purchase it, as it was in ES1... With the option of VR. 🥽

Exactly this. Well said and written. The developers pathetic response in this thread is quite sad really. This discussion should highlight to them how many people are passionate about their game and want to enjoy it at it's best (VR and a joystick). The VR market has doubled in size since the last game implemented VR, which they did a poor job with on the first game anyway.

If they actually invested in hiring people to implement VRt properly it would massively boost sales for the game and bring in a whole new audience. If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.

[colonelclick]

+1

I was ready to buy today until I saw no VR support.

[ROCKFISH Games]

Originally posted by Treebs:

Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:

The following is said with respect.
And is a direct reply to your post.

🥽1. But so many other developers have.
AAA, to indie, one-persons devs.
From...
Space games, like- Star Wars Squadrons / Elite Dangerous /HOTDS / CDF star fighter / NO Mans Sky, etc, etc.
To..
Car / Truck Games, like- Project Cars, (series) Dirt (series) Truck Simulator U.s and European. Asseto Corsa / Distance, and on and on.
To..
So many other titles. like - ALYX, Subnautica, SuperHot, and so so many more.
All of Those, and all the other devs,
"brought the "optional VR support. And dealt with the marketing consequences/challenges."

🥽2. What is said in this thread, about the "big game engines UE4, and Unity bending over backwards to facilitate developers implementing VR" is a fact.

🥽3. MANY, not all... but many, people who bought ES1, and the fame / kudos attained for Rockfish was due, to VR.

🥽4. VR both in numbers sold, and progression in gaming, has come a long way since you guys launched ES1.

🥽5. Rockfish "obviously" have a dedicated following among the VR community from ES1.
Even from the "booming reaction" of those who have bothered to post on this thread alone,- (as we all know that not everyone posts on the forums, are anywhere near the numbers of those who just purchase "The games." on Steam)
And yet the (you) chose to completely ignore these fans / supporters of Rockfish, and your previous game.

🥽6. The sheer number of HMDs that were sold OUT, and on back order. And I do mean every single HMD from the Rift's to Valves own Index, And everything in between, this last year.
Things have changed, and are changing the "Mainstream status" of this technology..

🥽7. Whether from a financial, / loyalty, / and even a "future proofing stand point.
Whoever decided not to go the extra mile, and not to include VR in ES2, it was a faux pas.

🥽 8..
And just to make reference once more, to another team of talented devs like you guys.

Who made the same mistake... Just for comparison.
Lets look at the numbers.....

Subnautica, WITH - VR. (not motion controller, just game pad) VS the second game Subnautica "Sub zero" <--(there's a joke in there, but I will refrain.)
And...
Just take a look at the WHOPPING! difference, in sales, reviews, AND degree of reviews.

Subnautica 1....... WITH - VR.
Release Date Jan 2018
(Only 1 year earlier than the second one below.)
And remember, they were an unknown.... Without the following that the second should have capitalized on.

145k (thats ---> One hundred and forty-five thousand) reviews.
(Circa 117k MORE reviews..- (Not sales, just reviews,) -than the second game when they dropped VR.)
All..." Overwhelmingly Positive"

Subnautica Sub Zero....... WITHOUT - VR.
Release Date Jan 2019.
28 (twenty-eight thousand) reviews (Again.. 117k less reviews than SN1)
And "very positive"

If this isn't a "cautionary tale" I'm not sure what is. 🤔

Agan all said with due respect.

I / we would not be here if I / we didnt love your work. But want it, / will purchase it, as it was in ES1... With the option of VR. 🥽

Exactly this. Well said and written. The developers pathetic response in this thread is quite sad really. This discussion should highlight to them how many people are passionate about their game and want to enjoy it at it's best (VR and a joystick). The VR market has doubled in size since the last game implemented VR, which they did a poor job with on the first game anyway.

If they actually invested in hiring people to implement VRt properly it would massively boost sales for the game and bring in a whole new audience. If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.

Well, we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to, and we even shared our reasoning in great detail. We don't expect anybody to agree, but how about respecting our business decision? /Michael

[flyawayGR]

No VR support, no buy for me. Very sad.

[Typhoon]

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

Well, we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to, and we even shared our reasoning in great detail. We don't expect anybody to agree, but how about respecting our business decision? /Michael

Just to clarify, have we gone from:
"We will be looking at VR again in 2022"
to:
"we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to"
?

[ROCKFISH Games]

Originally posted by Treebs:

Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:

The following is said with respect.
And is a direct reply to your post.

🥽1. But so many other developers have.
AAA, to indie, one-persons devs.
From...
Space games, like- Star Wars Squadrons / Elite Dangerous /HOTDS / CDF star fighter / NO Mans Sky, etc, etc.
To..
Car / Truck Games, like- Project Cars, (series) Dirt (series) Truck Simulator U.s and European. Asseto Corsa / Distance, and on and on.
To..
So many other titles. like - ALYX, Subnautica, SuperHot, and so so many more.
All of Those, and all the other devs,
"brought the "optional VR support. And dealt with the marketing consequences/challenges."

🥽2. What is said in this thread, about the "big game engines UE4, and Unity bending over backwards to facilitate developers implementing VR" is a fact.

🥽3. MANY, not all... but many, people who bought ES1, and the fame / kudos attained for Rockfish was due, to VR.

🥽4. VR both in numbers sold, and progression in gaming, has come a long way since you guys launched ES1.

🥽5. Rockfish "obviously" have a dedicated following among the VR community from ES1.
Even from the "booming reaction" of those who have bothered to post on this thread alone,- (as we all know that not everyone posts on the forums, are anywhere near the numbers of those who just purchase "The games." on Steam)
And yet the (you) chose to completely ignore these fans / supporters of Rockfish, and your previous game.

🥽6. The sheer number of HMDs that were sold OUT, and on back order. And I do mean every single HMD from the Rift's to Valves own Index, And everything in between, this last year.
Things have changed, and are changing the "Mainstream status" of this technology..

🥽7. Whether from a financial, / loyalty, / and even a "future proofing stand point.
Whoever decided not to go the extra mile, and not to include VR in ES2, it was a faux pas.

🥽 8..
And just to make reference once more, to another team of talented devs like you guys.

Who made the same mistake... Just for comparison.
Lets look at the numbers.....

Subnautica, WITH - VR. (not motion controller, just game pad) VS the second game Subnautica "Sub zero" <--(there's a joke in there, but I will refrain.)
And...
Just take a look at the WHOPPING! difference, in sales, reviews, AND degree of reviews.

Subnautica 1....... WITH - VR.
Release Date Jan 2018
(Only 1 year earlier than the second one below.)
And remember, they were an unknown.... Without the following that the second should have capitalized on.

145k (thats ---> One hundred and forty-five thousand) reviews.
(Circa 117k MORE reviews..- (Not sales, just reviews,) -than the second game when they dropped VR.)
All..." Overwhelmingly Positive"

Subnautica Sub Zero....... WITHOUT - VR.
Release Date Jan 2019.
28 (twenty-eight thousand) reviews (Again.. 117k less reviews than SN1)
And "very positive"

If this isn't a "cautionary tale" I'm not sure what is. 🤔

Agan all said with due respect.

I / we would not be here if I / we didnt love your work. But want it, / will purchase it, as it was in ES1... With the option of VR. 🥽

Exactly this. Well said and written. The developers pathetic response in this thread is quite sad really. This discussion should highlight to them how many people are passionate about their game and want to enjoy it at it's best (VR and a joystick). The VR market has doubled in size since the last game implemented VR, which they did a poor job with on the first game anyway.

If they actually invested in hiring people to implement VRt properly it would massively boost sales for the game and bring in a whole new audience. If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.

Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

Well, we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to, and we even shared our reasoning in great detail. We don't expect anybody to agree, but how about respecting our business decision? /Michael

Just to clarify, have we gone from:
"We will be looking at VR again in 2022"
to:
"we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to"
?

As you can read in the pinned response of this thread, we ruled out having optional VR in ES2, but that we will have a look at the topic after full release if a standalone, fully optimized VR version might be a good business decision, or rather spend our limited resources in adding more content and features to the "pancake" version.

To be brutally honest (I'm German, so sugarcoating is not in my genes, and I'm a big believer in clear messaging), given the ongoing controversy about how easy some individuals on this thread believe it would be to implement VR in a complex, AA space looter shooter RPG (because some random dude added VR to some random game in a day), therefore it must(!) be a free addition to the ES2 base game, but of course, it also must(!) work out of the box as if it was standalone VR game incl. supporting VR controllers (implying we otherwise would get hammered with negative reviews), we're not too excited about having VR in ES2 at all. /Michael

[Typhoon]

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

To be brutally honest (I'm German, so sugarcoating is not in my genes, and I'm a big believer in clear messaging), given the ongoing controversy about how easy some individuals on this thread believe it would be to implement VR in a complex, AA space looter shooter RPG (because some random dude added VR to some random game in a day), therefore it must(!) be a free addition to the ES2 base game, but of course, it also must(!) work out of the box as if it was standalone VR game incl. supporting VR controllers (implying we otherwise would get hammered with negative reviews), we're not too excited about having VR in ES2 at all. /Michael

I understand frustration because there have been plenty of people in this thread making unreasonable comments and accusing while not paying attention to what's being pinned. You'll even see this morning I advocated for civil discussion because you said it could still be considered after V1.

I don't think anyone expects quality of a stand alone VR game with support for motion controls though, and anyone who is really doesn't understand what the game itself is about, just some head tracking support with a HMD like you're planning with TrackIR and like you did for the first game, like a companion to the alt-look in cockpit view.

[ROCKFISH Games]

Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

I understand frustration because there have been plenty of people in this thread making unreasonable comments and accusing while not paying attention to what's being pinned. You'll even see this morning I advocated for civil discussion because you said it could still be considered after V1.

I don't think anyone expects quality of a stand alone VR game with support for motion controls though, and anyone who is really doesn't understand what the game itself is about, just some head tracking support with a HMD like you're planning with TrackIR and like you did for the first game, like a companion to the alt-look in cockpit view.

Unfortunately, that was exactly one of the issues with the predecessor, and we've read "demanding full VR support incl. motion VR motion controllers" for ES2 in several places on the internet already. /Michael

[Typhoon]

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

Unfortunately, that was exactly one of the issues with the predecessor, and we've read "demanding full VR support incl. motion VR motion controllers" for ES2 in several places on the internet already. /Michael

I'll concede from the standpoint of a VR functionality advocate that that's unrealistic.

We have controller, mouse and keyboard and HOTAS support. Really don't see why full motion tracking of controllers would be necessary at all, let alone an enjoyable control scheme.

I understand NMS uses motion controls, but NMS isn't a fast-paced arcade-style action space shooter. SW Squadrons and Elite Dangerous don't even incorporate motion controls.

Alas if you're still going to consider head tracking after the release of 1.0 that's good enough for me.

[The_Free_Dom]

Partial VR support in the form of HMD compatibility would be a sale from me.

[Fdruid]

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

Well, happy to share more background information and shed more light on our decision about not to support VR in Everspace 2 for the time being.

We recently pulled stats from the Steam Hardware Survey of the original Everspace owners, featuring optional VR support. The amount of VR headsets is less than 10% even though VR was a major selling point during our first Kickstarter in 2015 and the original Everspace being featured on the Steam front page together with other VR titles several times.

To make things worse for us as developers, only the top four most common VR headsets make up for 1% to 2% each and 6.5% combined; every other model is below 0.6%. Meaning, an already fairly small market is also heavily fragmented - and we haven't talked about VR users probably being more likely to participate in the Steam Hardware Survey than average PC gamers, so chances are the actual percentage is even lower.

In comparison to that, Xbox and PlayStation account for roughly 40% of the original Everspace's lifetime revenue (bearing in mind the game launched a year later on PS4).

In combination with the fact that a rock-solid VR port of Everspace 2 would require significantly more effort than porting the game to Xbox and PlayStation (we are talking about an investment of at least two man-years of development), plus all the marketing challenges that come with optional VR support (we already talked about those in detail), we hope that everyone can understand that we won't even be looking into making a VR version of Everspace 2 before its full release on PC and consoles in 2022.

TL;DR
If you want to do VR right, you have to look at it and treat it as an entirely new gaming platform. However, the significant technical and game design challenges of VR, in combination with a single-digit percentage and heavily fragmented install base, simply don't make a promising business case, at least for the next three years.

So, unless being backed by a VC, publisher or VR platform holder, chances are as an independent studio betting heavily on VR today, you will be out of business or weakened your position in your core market position that you have to go through a fire sale before you run out of cash if things don't go so well as planned (we have been there, not pretty.).

Now, I want to close this subject on a high note, though: We will be looking at VR again in 2022. But first, we have to deliver a rock-solid open-world space shooter RPG for PC and consoles which already is by far the biggest project we have ever worked on in over 27 years. And yes, we will support fully customizable HOTAS support as well as ultrawide and triple-screen setups, and TrackIR at some point during Steam Early Access.

/Michael

Thanks for the response.

You're not willing to invest resorces in implementing VR, for whatever reasons. It's fine.

It's definitely one of the few reasons I would have bought this game and caught my interest.

So now I have this information I will probably wait for another sale for the first game and buy that one, really cheap. Or a game that does have the features I want. I might buy this game further down the line, when in 3 or four years it's on sale at a huge discount.