EVERSPACE™ 2

EVERSPACE™ 2

ԀΔ√!Ԁ Aug 19, 2019 @ 3:25pm
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VR support ?
like with Everspace 1...
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Well, it's probably about time to close this topic for good. First off, thank you to everyone in this thread who has listened to us as we’ve been saying that we don’t want to create a VR experience for EVERSPACE 2. We understand that you are all passionate about VR as a whole, but we are not going to spend time and resources creating this for EVERSPACE 2.

Without going too much into technical/design details or debating business cases (we’ve shared our reasoning in-depth in an earlier comment about why we don't plan to support VR in ES2), we’ve come to the conclusion that we would not be able to match high expectations of all VR players while justify spending our limited resources on a complex feature that is relevant to less than 5% of our target audience.

FWIW, the final nail in the coffin for VR in ES2 is this thread. Disrespectful comments from VR players calling our team lazy, technically incompetent—mind you this is to a veteran team that has been working their butts off to deliver best-in-class space combat games on all kinds of gaming platforms—and/or greedy because we allegedly "mislead" VR players that we'll add VR to ES2 (a never-promised feature). Even if there are VR players who only bought the first EVERSPACE because of VR support, that does not mean it is a guaranteed feature in the sequel. Frankly, many of the comments here show a level of entitlement that is off-putting to a team that really does find VR an exciting platform, and two studio founders willing to invest a six-digit budget in VR out of their own pockets.

Our PR folks are probably pulling their hair out right now—I've been called out for poor communication to VR users before, but I genuinely don't care anymore—if any gruntled VR user is still reading, ask yourself WHY in the world should any indie developer get excited about putting their house on the line to make significant changes to their game to support a heavily fragmented platform for a single-digit percentage audience? This is especially difficult when the feature asked for is led by a vocal minority with utterly unrealistic expectations as if the title was designed as a VR-only game, and frequently shows a complete lack of understanding of what it takes to properly implement VR, also often paired with outright false perceptions of how the gaming business works.

On a personal level, the audacity of some hardcore VR fans calling me out for being patronizing while I genuinely wanted to openly share our reasoning about our business decision which was based on deep market research and our own internal data at the beginning of this thread—arguably quite rare in the gaming industry—was just the beginning. Meanwhile, we’re at a tipping point: the bridges are burned, and I couldn't genuinely care less about any business consequences due to not supporting VR in ES2. Even if the business decision might hurt my own pocket as is claimed throughout this thread, at this point, I am more concerned about protecting our team from toxic community feedback than delivering the next big VR title.

/Michael

PS: This post has passed our PR police, so this is no joke!

Edit PPS: Adding some of my previous responses to the VR community for a more complete picture about our reasoning:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=13#c4625714282752092927
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=44#c3108014879953931549
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=45#c3108014879954187891
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=46#c3108014879954962740
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/0/3647273545693281309/?ctp=71#c3123786356710459872
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Showing 646-660 of 1,709 comments
FanZeroEx Jan 20, 2021 @ 5:43am 
The audacity of some of the posters here is just baffling. From veiled "lazy devs" rhetoric to armchair dev "advice" to schooling how to do PR because "customer is always right". No, Michael does not need a community manager. What some of you guys need is to get a grip on reality. You are not entitled to VR support nor is the Rockfish entitled to your money if they don't provide the feature you want. This is a business transaction first and firemost. Don't like it? Don't buy it - simple. Explanation on why Rockfish is not doing VR is reasonable. You may not agree with it but claiming they should take a risk with VR for your own selfish reasons makes you look out of touch and frankly an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Also if you're thinking making a space game is not passionate enough I think you're out of your mind. How many good games about space come out in recent 5 years? Not many. It is rather niche genre in itself.
dunninger Jan 20, 2021 @ 6:10am 
"Don't like it? Don't buy it - simple."
Totally agree.
Surely the same metric applies to: 'Don't like what people are saying - don't read it.'
?
Edifier Jan 20, 2021 @ 6:31am 
Originally posted by Orchestructive:
Originally posted by Edifier:
Half-Life Alyx which is easily the most popular VR game of all time had at peak around 50 to 60 000 players on it.

Beat Saber would like a word.

Alyx isn't the most popular VR title of all time, it's just the most AAA.

Beat Saber topped the charts for consecutive year AND you're completely forgetting Oculus store sales on both Rift and Quest devices.

Beat saber is popular, no doubt about that but Half-Life Alyx had way more players at launch than Beat Saber did. 10 times higher.
During the release and even before the Index was sold out for months.
https://steamdb.info/app/620980/graphs/
https://steamdb.info/app/546560/graphs/
These two links show quite a bit of stats of those two games. Including player numbers.
collindrennen Jan 20, 2021 @ 6:34am 
I would very much like to see VR implemented ASAP, but it cannot be reasonably ignored of the effort it may take to do so, or the return on investment.

As it is, I see 2 options:
(1) Wait for VR support from the developer (the primary risk there being something else can come along in the meantime, and by the time RFG feels VR is worth their effort, nobody may care. As an example, Eve: Valkyrie, aside from not having the Star Wars brand behind, was Star Wars: Squadrons, in some significant ways, long before Squadrons came out).
I don't see a choice but to wait until 2022, unless RFG decides to Kickstart a VR effort.

(2) Hope somebody creates an unofficial patch, which has happened in the past. The downside to this is whenever the game gets updated, the VR mod could be broken. This happened on a previous flatscreen game, GTFO. It had a wonderful VR mod that seamlessly let you play the game alongside your non-VR counterparts. Unfortunately, in one of the updates by the developers, the VR mod got severely crippled. The VR modder even tried to reach out to the developers to get help, but no go.

In this case, I can't really blame the GTFO developers, as it is their game, despite for a while GTFO was the best unofficial VR game around for myself. Since GTFO lost unofficial VR support, I have stopped playing the game. The game itself is good all on its own, but VR added a 'special sauce' that makes going back to the flatscreen version very difficult.
Last edited by collindrennen; Jan 20, 2021 @ 6:39am
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 6:45am 
Originally posted by Edifier:

Beat saber is popular, no doubt about that but Half-Life Alyx had way more players at launch than Beat Saber did. 10 times higher.

It's also important to note that according to those links you posted, it's estimated that up 300K more steam accounts actually own Beat Saber.

Again, this is only in Steam. As Orchestructive said, those figures don't account for people who own the Oculus Store or Quest versions.

Beat Saber has sold more copies overall.
Thundercleez Jan 20, 2021 @ 6:53am 
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
and we haven't talked about VR users probably being more likely to participate in the Steam Hardware Survey than average PC gamer
Based on what? As a VR owner, I always opt out of the survey when it pops up.

Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
If you want to do VR right, you have to look at it and treat it as an entirely new gaming platform.
It is great when that is done, but even just headset + a standard controller/keyboard support would be fantastic.
FanZeroEx Jan 20, 2021 @ 7:10am 
Originally posted by dunninger:
"Don't like it? Don't buy it - simple."
Totally agree.
Surely the same metric applies to: 'Don't like what people are saying - don't read it.'
?
Sure if you consider an optional feature in game as equal to one of the fundamental forms of communication. Also how do you know if you like what you read before reading it? By the way my post does not invalidate or dismiss the feature request or the discussion about it whatsoever. The question was raised and dev explained their stance rather thoroughly. And they even considering it after finishing the planned scope of the project. Throwing tantrums and insults help with the disccusion exactly how? Calling devs lazy, unskilled and so on will convince them to implement the feature? Declaring to not buy the game will magically make the devs to discard their initial plans? It's fine to disagree with decisions of the devs just not in a way some of the posters here do.
Last edited by FanZeroEx; Jan 20, 2021 @ 7:19am
dunninger Jan 20, 2021 @ 7:22am 
"Throwing tantrums and insults help with the disccusion exactly how? Calling devs lazy, unskilled and so on will convince them to implement the feature?"
and
' It's fine to disagree with decisions of the devs just not in a way some of the posters here do.'

Here, we are in total agreement. Therefore, I do not want to invalidate your point. However, this vitriol has come from both sides. I think we can agree on this also.
If I have no interest in an a particular aspect of gaming (I can think of many), I never feel the need to comment on it.
Again, I am in broad agreement with the point you made in your last post.
Treebs Jan 20, 2021 @ 8:04am 
Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Funny how many ppl on this thread think they know so much better than we but have never developed a quality 3D space combat with optional VR support and had to deal with the marketing consequences/challenges when it's an official feature. Just saying... /Michael

The following is said with respect.
And is a direct reply to your post.

🥽1. But so many other developers have.
AAA, to indie, one-persons devs.
From...
Space games, like- Star Wars Squadrons / Elite Dangerous /HOTDS / CDF star fighter / NO Mans Sky, etc, etc.
To..
Car / Truck Games, like- Project Cars, (series) Dirt (series) Truck Simulator U.s and European. Asseto Corsa / Distance, and on and on.
To..
So many other titles. like - ALYX, Subnautica, SuperHot, and so so many more.
All of Those, and all the other devs,
"brought the "optional VR support. And dealt with the marketing consequences/challenges."

🥽2. What is said in this thread, about the "big game engines UE4, and Unity bending over backwards to facilitate developers implementing VR" is a fact.

🥽3. MANY, not all... but many, people who bought ES1, and the fame / kudos attained for Rockfish was due, to VR.

🥽4. VR both in numbers sold, and progression in gaming, has come a long way since you guys launched ES1.

🥽5. Rockfish "obviously" have a dedicated following among the VR community from ES1.
Even from the "booming reaction" of those who have bothered to post on this thread alone,- (as we all know that not everyone posts on the forums, are anywhere near the numbers of those who just purchase "The games." on Steam)
And yet the (you) chose to completely ignore these fans / supporters of Rockfish, and your previous game.

🥽6. The sheer number of HMDs that were sold OUT, and on back order. And I do mean every single HMD from the Rift's to Valves own Index, And everything in between, this last year.
Things have changed, and are changing the "Mainstream status" of this technology..

🥽7. Whether from a financial, / loyalty, / and even a "future proofing stand point.
Whoever decided not to go the extra mile, and not to include VR in ES2, it was a faux pas.

🥽 8..
And just to make reference once more, to another team of talented devs like you guys.

Who made the same mistake... Just for comparison.
Lets look at the numbers.....

Subnautica, WITH - VR. (not motion controller, just game pad) VS the second game Subnautica "Sub zero" <--(there's a joke in there, but I will refrain.)
And...
Just take a look at the WHOPPING! difference, in sales, reviews, AND degree of reviews.

Subnautica 1....... WITH - VR.
Release Date Jan 2018
(Only 1 year earlier than the second one below.)
And remember, they were an unknown.... Without the following that the second should have capitalized on.


145k (thats ---> One hundred and forty-five thousand) reviews.
(Circa 117k MORE reviews..- (Not sales, just reviews,) -than the second game when they dropped VR.)
All..." Overwhelmingly Positive"

Subnautica Sub Zero....... WITHOUT - VR.
Release Date Jan 2019.
28 (twenty-eight thousand) reviews (Again.. 117k less reviews than SN1)
And "very positive"


If this isn't a "cautionary tale" I'm not sure what is. 🤔

Agan all said with due respect.
I / we would not be here if I / we didnt love your work. But want it, / will purchase it, as it was in ES1... With the option of VR. 🥽

Exactly this. Well said and written. The developers pathetic response in this thread is quite sad really. This discussion should highlight to them how many people are passionate about their game and want to enjoy it at it's best (VR and a joystick). The VR market has doubled in size since the last game implemented VR, which they did a poor job with on the first game anyway.

If they actually invested in hiring people to implement VRt properly it would massively boost sales for the game and bring in a whole new audience. If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.
colonelclick Jan 20, 2021 @ 8:32am 
+1

I was ready to buy today until I saw no VR support.
ROCKFISH Games  [developer] Jan 20, 2021 @ 8:34am 
Originally posted by Treebs:
Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:

The following is said with respect.
And is a direct reply to your post.

🥽1. But so many other developers have.
AAA, to indie, one-persons devs.
From...
Space games, like- Star Wars Squadrons / Elite Dangerous /HOTDS / CDF star fighter / NO Mans Sky, etc, etc.
To..
Car / Truck Games, like- Project Cars, (series) Dirt (series) Truck Simulator U.s and European. Asseto Corsa / Distance, and on and on.
To..
So many other titles. like - ALYX, Subnautica, SuperHot, and so so many more.
All of Those, and all the other devs,
"brought the "optional VR support. And dealt with the marketing consequences/challenges."

🥽2. What is said in this thread, about the "big game engines UE4, and Unity bending over backwards to facilitate developers implementing VR" is a fact.

🥽3. MANY, not all... but many, people who bought ES1, and the fame / kudos attained for Rockfish was due, to VR.

🥽4. VR both in numbers sold, and progression in gaming, has come a long way since you guys launched ES1.

🥽5. Rockfish "obviously" have a dedicated following among the VR community from ES1.
Even from the "booming reaction" of those who have bothered to post on this thread alone,- (as we all know that not everyone posts on the forums, are anywhere near the numbers of those who just purchase "The games." on Steam)
And yet the (you) chose to completely ignore these fans / supporters of Rockfish, and your previous game.

🥽6. The sheer number of HMDs that were sold OUT, and on back order. And I do mean every single HMD from the Rift's to Valves own Index, And everything in between, this last year.
Things have changed, and are changing the "Mainstream status" of this technology..

🥽7. Whether from a financial, / loyalty, / and even a "future proofing stand point.
Whoever decided not to go the extra mile, and not to include VR in ES2, it was a faux pas.

🥽 8..
And just to make reference once more, to another team of talented devs like you guys.

Who made the same mistake... Just for comparison.
Lets look at the numbers.....

Subnautica, WITH - VR. (not motion controller, just game pad) VS the second game Subnautica "Sub zero" <--(there's a joke in there, but I will refrain.)
And...
Just take a look at the WHOPPING! difference, in sales, reviews, AND degree of reviews.

Subnautica 1....... WITH - VR.
Release Date Jan 2018
(Only 1 year earlier than the second one below.)
And remember, they were an unknown.... Without the following that the second should have capitalized on.


145k (thats ---> One hundred and forty-five thousand) reviews.
(Circa 117k MORE reviews..- (Not sales, just reviews,) -than the second game when they dropped VR.)
All..." Overwhelmingly Positive"

Subnautica Sub Zero....... WITHOUT - VR.
Release Date Jan 2019.
28 (twenty-eight thousand) reviews (Again.. 117k less reviews than SN1)
And "very positive"


If this isn't a "cautionary tale" I'm not sure what is. 🤔

Agan all said with due respect.
I / we would not be here if I / we didnt love your work. But want it, / will purchase it, as it was in ES1... With the option of VR. 🥽

Exactly this. Well said and written. The developers pathetic response in this thread is quite sad really. This discussion should highlight to them how many people are passionate about their game and want to enjoy it at it's best (VR and a joystick). The VR market has doubled in size since the last game implemented VR, which they did a poor job with on the first game anyway.

If they actually invested in hiring people to implement VRt properly it would massively boost sales for the game and bring in a whole new audience. If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.

Well, we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to, and we even shared our reasoning in great detail. We don't expect anybody to agree, but how about respecting our business decision? /Michael
Last edited by ROCKFISH Games; Jan 20, 2021 @ 8:37am
flyawayGR Jan 20, 2021 @ 8:36am 
No VR support, no buy for me. Very sad.
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 8:46am 
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Well, we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to, and we even shared our reasoning in great detail. We don't expect anybody to agree, but how about respecting our business decision? /Michael

Just to clarify, have we gone from:
"We will be looking at VR again in 2022"
to:
"we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to"
?
ROCKFISH Games  [developer] Jan 20, 2021 @ 9:17am 
Originally posted by Treebs:
Originally posted by 💎 Andy 💎:

The following is said with respect.
And is a direct reply to your post.

🥽1. But so many other developers have.
AAA, to indie, one-persons devs.
From...
Space games, like- Star Wars Squadrons / Elite Dangerous /HOTDS / CDF star fighter / NO Mans Sky, etc, etc.
To..
Car / Truck Games, like- Project Cars, (series) Dirt (series) Truck Simulator U.s and European. Asseto Corsa / Distance, and on and on.
To..
So many other titles. like - ALYX, Subnautica, SuperHot, and so so many more.
All of Those, and all the other devs,
"brought the "optional VR support. And dealt with the marketing consequences/challenges."

🥽2. What is said in this thread, about the "big game engines UE4, and Unity bending over backwards to facilitate developers implementing VR" is a fact.

🥽3. MANY, not all... but many, people who bought ES1, and the fame / kudos attained for Rockfish was due, to VR.

🥽4. VR both in numbers sold, and progression in gaming, has come a long way since you guys launched ES1.

🥽5. Rockfish "obviously" have a dedicated following among the VR community from ES1.
Even from the "booming reaction" of those who have bothered to post on this thread alone,- (as we all know that not everyone posts on the forums, are anywhere near the numbers of those who just purchase "The games." on Steam)
And yet the (you) chose to completely ignore these fans / supporters of Rockfish, and your previous game.

🥽6. The sheer number of HMDs that were sold OUT, and on back order. And I do mean every single HMD from the Rift's to Valves own Index, And everything in between, this last year.
Things have changed, and are changing the "Mainstream status" of this technology..

🥽7. Whether from a financial, / loyalty, / and even a "future proofing stand point.
Whoever decided not to go the extra mile, and not to include VR in ES2, it was a faux pas.

🥽 8..
And just to make reference once more, to another team of talented devs like you guys.

Who made the same mistake... Just for comparison.
Lets look at the numbers.....

Subnautica, WITH - VR. (not motion controller, just game pad) VS the second game Subnautica "Sub zero" <--(there's a joke in there, but I will refrain.)
And...
Just take a look at the WHOPPING! difference, in sales, reviews, AND degree of reviews.

Subnautica 1....... WITH - VR.
Release Date Jan 2018
(Only 1 year earlier than the second one below.)
And remember, they were an unknown.... Without the following that the second should have capitalized on.


145k (thats ---> One hundred and forty-five thousand) reviews.
(Circa 117k MORE reviews..- (Not sales, just reviews,) -than the second game when they dropped VR.)
All..." Overwhelmingly Positive"

Subnautica Sub Zero....... WITHOUT - VR.
Release Date Jan 2019.
28 (twenty-eight thousand) reviews (Again.. 117k less reviews than SN1)
And "very positive"


If this isn't a "cautionary tale" I'm not sure what is. 🤔

Agan all said with due respect.
I / we would not be here if I / we didnt love your work. But want it, / will purchase it, as it was in ES1... With the option of VR. 🥽

Exactly this. Well said and written. The developers pathetic response in this thread is quite sad really. This discussion should highlight to them how many people are passionate about their game and want to enjoy it at it's best (VR and a joystick). The VR market has doubled in size since the last game implemented VR, which they did a poor job with on the first game anyway.

If they actually invested in hiring people to implement VRt properly it would massively boost sales for the game and bring in a whole new audience. If they don't want to that's up to them ultimately but don't be so f*cking disrespectful to fans who are just asking for it to be considered.


Originally posted by Generic Skateboarding Beer Dog:
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:
Well, we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to, and we even shared our reasoning in great detail. We don't expect anybody to agree, but how about respecting our business decision? /Michael

Just to clarify, have we gone from:
"We will be looking at VR again in 2022"
to:
"we considered having optional VR in ES2, but we decided not to"
?
As you can read in the pinned response of this thread, we ruled out having optional VR in ES2, but that we will have a look at the topic after full release if a standalone, fully optimized VR version might be a good business decision, or rather spend our limited resources in adding more content and features to the "pancake" version.

To be brutally honest (I'm German, so sugarcoating is not in my genes, and I'm a big believer in clear messaging), given the ongoing controversy about how easy some individuals on this thread believe it would be to implement VR in a complex, AA space looter shooter RPG (because some random dude added VR to some random game in a day), therefore it must(!) be a free addition to the ES2 base game, but of course, it also must(!) work out of the box as if it was standalone VR game incl. supporting VR controllers (implying we otherwise would get hammered with negative reviews), we're not too excited about having VR in ES2 at all. /Michael
Comrade Jan 20, 2021 @ 9:38am 
Originally posted by ROCKFISH Games:

To be brutally honest (I'm German, so sugarcoating is not in my genes, and I'm a big believer in clear messaging), given the ongoing controversy about how easy some individuals on this thread believe it would be to implement VR in a complex, AA space looter shooter RPG (because some random dude added VR to some random game in a day), therefore it must(!) be a free addition to the ES2 base game, but of course, it also must(!) work out of the box as if it was standalone VR game incl. supporting VR controllers (implying we otherwise would get hammered with negative reviews), we're not too excited about having VR in ES2 at all. /Michael

I understand frustration because there have been plenty of people in this thread making unreasonable comments and accusing while not paying attention to what's being pinned. You'll even see this morning I advocated for civil discussion because you said it could still be considered after V1.

I don't think anyone expects quality of a stand alone VR game with support for motion controls though, and anyone who is really doesn't understand what the game itself is about, just some head tracking support with a HMD like you're planning with TrackIR and like you did for the first game, like a companion to the alt-look in cockpit view.
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