Darkest Dungeon®

Darkest Dungeon®

Class Variety Rebalance
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Jun 24, 2018 @ 3:09pm
Version 2.0 Full Changelog
Abomination:

- Transform:
Transform to human stress heal from 2/2/2/2/2 > 2/3/3/3/4
- Absolution:
Stress heal from 7/8/8/9/10 > 8/9/10/11/12
- Rage
Now has a 50% chance to inflict 5 stress on the Abomination
- Slam
Damage from -25%>50%
Crit from 1/2/3/4/5% > 6/7/8/9/10%
Only usable from rank 1 (instead of 3/2/1)
Pushes target 3 back instead of 2
Has a 50% chance to inflict 10 stress on the Abomination’s party members

The Abomination is mostly pretty interesting. Rage is a fairly boring skill, and also strong enough to the point that people may use it over Rake even in scenarios with multiple targets. To make it a more interesting choice, Rage now has a 50% chance to inflict 5 stress on the Abomination on hits (but not misses). Slam was overall boring and underutilized, so I’ve reworked it as a high-risk, high-reward “high moment” for the Abomination. The skill hits incredibly hard and pushes the enemy all the way to the back of the battle, but it can only be used from the first rank and comes with a 50% chance of inflicting 10 stress on each party member besides the Abomination. To make the added stress the Abom brings more manageable (and to make stress healing not an absolute must to take with him), I’ve slightly raised his own personal stress healing and the team stress healing that transforming to human gives you. This should make the Abomination feel more interesting and dynamic to play.

Antiquarian:

- Nervous Stab:
Accuracy from 85/90/95/100/105 > 45>50>55>60>65
Damage from 0% > 25%
Now has +40 Accuracy when Guarded
- Flashpowder:
Affects entire enemy party, rather than a single enemy
- Fortifying Vapours:
Now targets a single hero and gives them a heal-over-time of 1hp for 2s (at ranks 1-3)/2hp for 2s (at ranks 4 and 5) instead of a flat heal of 1-1/1-2/2-2/2-3/3-3

The Antiquarian is too weak to be worth bringing into Champion dungeons, in my opinion. At this point in the game you likely have enough money to not need her services regularly, and her combat skills are intentionally weak enough that it makes her a bit of a waste of party space. I want the Antiquarian to have a place as a support class in the late game, but I also want to preserve her weak combat capabilities. I’ve made Flashpowder hit the whole enemy team to give you a very worthwhile skill to maintain in battles, and Fortifying Vapours now heals over time for a slightly higher amount total. HoTs are incredibly strong in Darkest Dungeon due to their ability to combat Death’s Door, but I feel that the heal amount itself is weak enough to warrant something drastic. She still cannot replace a dedicated healer, which I think is good. Finally, for a class that is supposed to be weak at combat, Nervous Stab is actually fantastic, with great damage, accuracy, and reach. To keep the class more support-focused, I’ve cut the accuracy of the skill in half, and buffed the damage to compensate. However, when the Antiquarian is safe under a teammate’s guard, she will feel a little less nervous with her stabs, hitting with the same level of accuracy as before (and with a significant damage bonus to reward either your diligent setup or your raw luck!).




Arbalest:

- Suppressing Fire:
Now additionally breaks guards on targets
- Bola:
Now can be used from ranks 4/3/2 instead of 4/3
Now additionally inflicts a speed debuff of -3/-3/-4/-4/-5
- Battlefield Bandage:
Now has a 50% chance to cure blight/bleed on target
- Rallying Flare:
No longer has a chance to heal stress, instead gives a 2-turn party-wide accuracy buff of 5/6/7/8/10

The Arbalest had quite a few underwhelming skills. Red Hook recently made Suppressing Fire’s debuff much more appealing, but I think the skill breaking guards is both thematically appropriate and tactically interesting. I gave Bola a speed debuff to make it more useful, as well as making it usable in rank 2, giving the Arbalest a reliable damage skill other than Blindfire when shuffled. I thought making Bandage have a chance to cure blights and bleeds would make her healing a little more appealing, without infringing on the guaranteed cure that PD brings. Finally, I like that Red Hook looked at Rallying Flare, but I felt that the stress heal kinda stepped on the toes of Houndmaster’s Cry Havoc. Instead, I’ve given her an accuracy buff, which is both more thematic and fills a niche since I’ve removed MaA’s accuracy buff (more on that later!)

Bounty Hunter:

- Mark for Death:
No longer debuffs target, instead buffs Bounty Hunter’s own damage by 20/25/30/35/40 for 2 turns (which with Red Hook’s new buff paradigm, means a single turn of activity - the same as the speed buff they gave him)
- Flashbang:
Now ignores and removes stealth.

I really like what RH has done with Bounty in this last patch - the mark on Come Hither and and the Caltrops rework are great mechanically and thematically. I’ve changed his mark - instead of a weaker version of the Houndmaster’s mark debuff, he now gains a high damage buff for his next turn. This couples well with the speed buff RH gave him on mark, as well as fits in thematically with Bounty’s identity as a lone-wolf kind of fighter - he’s out to get the bounty for himself, not his allies. I also made Flashbang an anti-stealth spell, since it really makes sense as one.
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Showing 1-15 of 20 comments
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Jun 24, 2018 @ 3:09pm 
Crusader:

- Zealous Accusation:
Damage from -40% > -50%
Now additionally debuffs targets with -15/-16/-17/-18/-20 accuracy for 3 turns on hit
- Battle Heal:
Can no longer target self
Now guards for 3 turns (equivalent duration to MaA’s guard)
- Holy Lance:
Now moves the Crusader forward 2 spaces instead of 1

I think Crusader is in a great place currently. Zealous Accusation was still a little boring, so I added a thematically appropriate debuff and tuned its damage down appropriately. Additionally, giving Battle Heal a guarding mechanic makes the skill far more interesting and usable later in the game, and fits well as a frontliner (or backline tank!) in parties without dedicated healers. Finally, making Holy Lance move 2 forward instead of 1 allows the Crusader to better find his desired rank 1 position in shuffle parties, as well as make shuffle cheese (such as GR, Jester, and Crusader dancing repeatedly for huge damage) harder to execute.

Grave Robber:

- Pick to the Face:
Now additionally inflicts a 3 turn -5/-6/-7/-8/-10% protection debuff on hit
- Lunge:
Now inflicts a -10/-13/-15/-18/-20% dodge debuff on the Grave Robber for 3 turns
- Flashing Daggers:
No longer targets ranks 2&3, now targets entire enemy party
No longer inflicts bleed debuff
Damage from -33% > -66%
- Poison Dart:
Damage from -60% > -70%
No longer inflicts blight resistance debuff
Now inflicts a 3 turn -1/-1/-2/-2/-3 speed debuff on target

The Grave Robber had a mix of really cool skills and generic, boring ones. I gave Pick to the Face a -prot debuff in addition to its armor piercing capabilities to differentiate it from the Shieldbreaker’s armor piercing skill and make using this move even more appealing against high prot targets. Lunge was all-around too good, and associating some risk with using it should make Lunge spam less braindead in shuffle parties. Flashing Daggers was basically a poor man’s Harvest (-bleed resistance in a kit with no bleed is an odd thing imo), so I’ve fully revamped it. It is now the only pure damage skill in the game that hits the entire enemy party, giving the GR an excellent AoE niche and making choosing between Flashing Daggers and single target skills like Lunge or Thrown Dagger much tougher. Poison Dart was just too similar to Antiquarian’s Festering Vapours or Abomination’s Beast’s Bile - I’ve removed the blight resist debuff and instead given it a niche as a blight+speed debuff.

Hellion:

-General:
All skills that inflict Exhaust debuffs now only inflict them on hits, rather than hits and misses

- Wicked Hack:
Now does 20/25/30/35/40% bonus damage to bleeding targets
- If it Bleeds:
Now additionally inflicts a 3 turn dodge debuff of -5/-6/-7/-8/-10% on hit
- Breakthrough:
Now clears corpses
- Barbaric YAWP:
Can now only be used from ranks 3/2, rather than 2/1

YAWP is just too good a skill, even with a per-battle limit. Why wouldn’t you start the battle with it every time and keep Hellion a stun bot? To combat this I’ve done two things. First I’ve made Wicked Hack and If It Bleed more appealing skills, to make you question whether you want to actually hurt your damage with a YAWP. Second, I’ve made YAWP only usable from the middle ranks, to make you choose between the powerful rank 1 skills Bleed Out/Iron Swan and a more supportive middle rank Hellion with YAWP. I’ve also given some nice quality-of-life changes to the exhaust debuff (now only applies on your hits, rather than hits and misses) and given Breakthrough a corpse clear to help it out.

Highwayman:

- Wicked Slice:
Now can target ranks 1/2/3 instead of 1/2
- Pistol Shot:
Can now only target ranks 3/4 instead of 2/3/4
Now does 25% bonus damage when used from ranks 3 or 4
- Grapeshot Blast:
Now usable from ranks 2/1 rather than 3/2
Now pushes HWM back 1 space
- Duelist’s Advance:
Riposte damage from -40/-33/-25/-20/-15% > -40/-35/-30/-25/-20%
- Open Vein:
No longer debuffs bleed resistance

I wanted to play up the HWM’s positional mechanics to make him more unique. Pistol Shot was a straight worse version of Thrown Dagger pre-CoM, and it’s okay now, but giving it a significant buff from the backline gives you a real reason to have a backline HWM. I’ve given Grapeshot a 1 space pushback to aid with this and make it more useful in shuffle parties, and made Wicked Slice able to target rank 3 to give it some more advantage over Open Vein. Open Vein was overall too strong, imo, so I’ve removed the -bleed debuff. Finally, I feel the riposte is the Man-at-Arm’s signature move, so I’ve weakened HWM’s so it infringes less on this - but left the crit intact, as critical ripostes feel very appropriate for him.
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Jun 24, 2018 @ 3:10pm 
Houndmaster:

- Target Whistle:
Debuff chance from 130/140/150/160/170% > 100/110/120/130/140%
- Lick Wounds:
Now usable in all ranks 4/3/2/1 instead of 4/3/2
- Guard Dog:
Guard duration changed from 2 turns to 3 turns
- Blackjack:
Now only usable from rank 1 instead of ranks 2/1

I wanted to play up the rank versatility of the Houndmaster, as well as weaken the overwhelming strength of Blackjack. Making Lick Wounds usable in rank 1 allows rank 1 “tank” Houndmaster to self-heal, making up for his lack of a protection buff. I’ve also made Guard Dog have an equivalent duration to the MaA’s Defender. I felt that Blackjack was too good a skill for how versatile it was, and limiting it to rank 1 makes it so that you can to build around a rank 1 HM if you want to use it, and frees up rank 2 Houndmasters to focus on putting out damage without the temptation to spend turns stunning every battle.

Jester:

- Slice Off:
Damage from -33% > -45%
Now inflicts a 3 turn -10/-11/-12/-13/-15% damage debuff to target

Overall RH have put the Jester in an excellent place with their changes. The only skill I felt was lackluster and boring was Slice Off, which I’ve given a -damage debuff. This fits well with Solo putting the Jester in danger, and a bleed+damage debuff move wasn’t present in game beforehand, so it’s a nice change of pace. The base damage has been nerfed a bit to compensate for the added utility.

Leper:

- Chop:
Now does bonus 15/20/25/30/35% damage two size-2 enemies
- Hew:
Now gives the accuracy buff previously on Purge
Accuracy buff now only activates on hits
- Purge:
No longer buffs accuracy
- Solemnity:
Now usable from all ranks
- Withstand:
Now usable from all ranks
- Intimidate:
No longer ignores stealth or destealths
Now unmarks allies on hit, in addition to marking the Leper

Chop was just a boring single target damage skill, and giving the Leper added damage against large targets fits thematically. I felt that his accuracy issues made him a volatile enough pick in Veteran/Champion dungeons to not need to hit the skill’s base damage to compensate. I removed the accuracy buff from Purge and threw it on Hew as Purge is fairly unique without it as relatively high-damage+push+corpse clear skill, and Hew is quite boring. I made Solemnity and Withstand usable from all ranks as quality of life change - the fact that the Leper cannot actually do damage to anything from the backline should be punishment enough for shuffles, so letting him at least heal and buff back there feels fair. Finally, I got rid of Intimidates anti-stealth use (didn’t seem to fit, is he looking in the general direction of a stealthed enemy and scaring them into revealing themselves? Lmao), but added an ally mark removal - this is both useful for keeping his allies safe and thematic, since he’s drawing enemy attention to himself.

Man-at-Arms:

- Crush:
Damage from 0% > -20%
Now inflicts a 3 turn stuff resistance debuff of -10/-15/-20/-25/-30% to target
- Rampart:
Damage from -60% > -50%
- Retribution:
Riposte damage from -40/-35/-30/-25/-20% > -30/-25/-20/-15/-10%
Crit from 0/1/2/3/4% to 0/1/1/2/2%
- Command:
Reworked entirely from party-wife buff into Mark+buff
Now marks a single enemy for 3 turns, and gives allies a 2 turn buff that gives them 5/6/7/8/10% bonus crit and 15/17/20/22/25% bonus damage against marked targets. Only usable once per battle.
- Bolster:
No longer buffs dodge. Now, in addition to reducing stress received, gives allies 20% move resistance and 20% increased virtue chance for the battle.

I felt that the Man-at-Arms raw damage was a little too high, so I nerfed Crush’s damage and upped Rampart’s damage. I feel like he should have most of his damage in Ripostes and utility moves. Similarly, I’ve upped his riposte damage slightly, but nerfed the crit value - I want his ripostes to be solid damage, not spikey damage like the HWM’s. I like the idea behind Red Hook’s new Command functionality, but I think it missed the mark, as it doesn’t really give the feel of a veteran leader commanding his troops, as well as being kinda wonky (it buffs guarded teammate’s damage, but you can only guard one at once unless you’re running double guard etc etc). I’ve implemented a version where the MaA singles out a target with a mark and his team gets massively increased damage towards it, giving the MaA a big high moment in fights and making him the ultimate addition to a mark party. Bolster similarly was cool, but +dodge is a little boring and similar to what I’ve given Antiquarian. Instead I gave the skill +move resist and pushed its anti-stress capabilities to 11 by giving it + virtue chance too, really fitting the idea of holding the line under the MaA’s seasoned command.

Occultist:

- Abyssal Artillery:
Now gives the same -5 torch penalty that Hands from the Abyss gives.

- Daemon’s Pull:
Now gives the same -5 torch penalty as HftA.
- Vulnerability Hex
Old debuff gone, but still marks for 3 turns
Now gives party a 2 turn buff which buffs damage by 15/20/20/20/25% when torchlight is at 25 or below

Another case of making a previously generic and weak Mark ability more interesting. Now the Occultist ups his team’s damage in darkness, making him great for pitch black runs. I’ve added a torch penalty to AA and Daemon’s Pull to make them more thematic and synergistic with this as well.

Plague Doctor:

- Incision:
Now applies a -20/-23/-26/-30/-33% blight resistance debuff to target
- Emboldening Vapours:
Damage and speed values identical to pre-CoM balance values (25/27/29/31/33% damage and 3/4/5/6/7 speed)
Only lasts for 2 turns (rather than entire battle)
Removes stun from target
No longer limited to 2 uses per battle
- Disorienting Blast:
Now hits entire enemy party rather than a single target
On hit, shuffles entire allied party

Incision was a bit boring, and giving it a blight resistance debuff spices that up and makes the skill more appealing to use at times. I like RH’s changes to Vapours, but I felt the one I had here was more unique as a reaction to stuns (as well as keeps from saturating the game with full-battle buffs). Disorienting Blast was pretty much just a crappy Flashbang - boring and very hard to justify using over her other skills. Instead of a single-target stun, it now offers you the chance to stun the entire enemy party, at the cost of shuffling your own in the crossfire. This is a high-risk, high-reward skill - unless you’ve build your party around dancing, in which case this skill fits right in (though the PD doesn’t… so you still have to work for it!).

Vestal:

- Mace Bash:
Can now target rows 1/2/3 rather than 1/2
No longer deals bonus damage to Unholy targets
Now applies a -10/-12/-15/-17/-20% damage debuff to target
- Hand of Light:
Self buff from 25/27/30/33/35% damage and 6/7/8/9/10 accuracy for 3 turns to 10/15/20/25/30% damage and 20% heals when torch is above 75 for 3 turns
Now gives +6 torchlight


I felt that +damage to Unholy was the Crusader’s niche, so I took it off of the Vestal. Instead, Mace Bash now inflicts a -damage debuff on the target, which fits the Vestal’s supportive role. I’ve also extended its reach to rank 3 for usability purposes. Red Hook was going in the right direction with the Hand of Light rework, but I like mine a bit better still (especially its dichotomy with the Occultist), giving rank 2 Vestal a powerful way to buff her damage and healing, but only in high torchlight. Adding +torchlight to the skill itself makes this more manageable.
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Jun 24, 2018 @ 3:11pm 
I've left the Flagellant and Shieldbreaker unchanged as of now, since they're both quite interesting and unique already. Thanks for your support, guys!
SketchyGalore Jul 16, 2018 @ 11:08am 
This was the feedback I tried to put in a comment but Steam was mean and wouldn't let me babble that much!

As for the changes, I quickly realized I'm not actually good enough at the game to make a good judgement call on the balance of everything, so I'm opting to toggle it on and off when I feel like something different, which fortunately seems to work flawlessly (not all games are so nice about mid-game tweaking).

But, I did have a few noteable situations involving the "side effects" of some skills that now do more than one thing. First, the plague doctor's wacky scramble grenade; I knew the risk of using it, but it also happened to be the only corpse clear skill, which was what I really needed it for, so it actually ended up being a major drawback that the only corpse clearer was a full party scramble. Then, the crusader's heal, which now guards in addition to healing, caused a few problems because I was trying to use him for healing more than tanking, which meant he got in the way of ripostes and such and took a ton of unintended damage. I'm not saying either of these were bad changes, but they did complicate things in a weird way: they were seemingly intended as buffs, but ended up being major drawbacks. As an aside, I also found emboldening vapors much less appealing as a temporary effect and the hellion stun nerf was similarly hard to work around, which were the only things that really felt like the mod was making my game directly harder (even if those two were arguably too powerful).

I also liked a few new thematic things, like the highwayman's long range pistol bonus, the leper's bonus to large targets, and the occultist's dark buff (although I couldn't help but think that last one might be a little crazy if I was actually good enough to handle dark runs!). So, I guess my feedback is a bit.. inconclusive! I'm not sure the game felt "rebalanced" but the "variety" part was definitely strong. Which is why I'm planning to use it on and off as someone who doesn't know the normal game very well; I like variety, but don't know I need it yet! And my interest in the mod was the idea of more viable party comps, so I didn't need to always use the "right" groups.

Anyway, sorry for the text wall, but wanted to give my feedback! Definitely hope the mod gets more attention (I think it'd help if it had a star rating in the workshop, so I gave it an upvote). If nothing else, the fact that you wrote out every change in detail, and the reasoning behind them, was what really had me impressed. People should at least give it a try for something different!
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Jul 18, 2018 @ 12:54am 
Thank you so much for the feedback!

I agree that some of the changes can make things harder. I like having drawbacks to skills - for example, I like that the PD's scramble grenade either encourages you to pick another way to clear corpses, or change your party around to deal with shuffling. I want every character to feel unique in some way, as in the base game I feel that many characters are just interchangeable (or often just worse versions of other ones). I actually might look into making PD's vapours battle-wide again, as well.

I would love a rating - unfortunately too many people download mods without rating them (myself included! Something we should all change) making it hard to get a large enough rating to display. Thank you so much again!
TheXBiscuit Jul 26, 2018 @ 5:35am 
Hey, not sure if you remember me, it's been a while. But I'd just like to give one piece of feedback that I agree with the Crusader's Guard-Heal feeling like more of a hindrance than a help. Perhaps you could think of some other way to help it or even just revert it to vanilla functionality? It's honestly a passable heal as is
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Jul 26, 2018 @ 6:35am 
I'm open to suggestions for alternative functionality, but I'm not going to revert it to vanilla. A huge part of this mod was trying to make it so that no skill feels exactly the same as another, and that would make the Crusader heal a poor man's Vestal heal.
MelodyFunction Sep 7, 2018 @ 4:51pm 
Very interesting mod with a lot of interesting, new choices. Haven't played DD for a very long time... A big part of that was, that I disliked the balance of the game.
My next playthrough, I will start with this mod and see how it goes. Looking forward to it!


Now, for some feedback:
As I have not started playing so far, I cannot exactly comment on the balance - but I could add suggestions regarding creativity. I don't want to sound arrogant, but I am pretty adept at designing classes, skillsets and whatever(Have a background in modding games myself).

First thing that comes to mind: Increase synergy and, especially, create more "pay-off" abilities.
Pay-off Abilities reward you for having performed a specific task - a simple example would be the marked abilities, rewarding you for marking enemies.
However, pay-offs do not need to always be simple damage increases and, so are, there are no "scaling" payoffs in the game(except Jester Finale).
A great place to start with this would be Blights - specifically, Plague Doctor.
As THE blight class, she should actually have a "reward" for stacking blight on enemies.
A simple idea would be to create an ability to specifically target only blighted enemies. For example:
Expunge: Deals base dmg and stuns all enemies afflicted with Blight.
A simple concept of this, could replace the problematic Blinding Grenade. A sizeable payoff for Blighting enemies, yet not necessarily OP, due to the preparation requirement+CD is a strong balancing lever.
Other simple ideas would, of course, be abilities that deal bonus dmg to blighted targets.

A more complex idea would be something that actually takes advantage of the amount of blight stacked on an enemy - the question is, if that would be possible at all. A few simple concepts(Numbers can, of course, be changed):

Pandemic:
Deals damage to the target equal to twice the target's Blight and affects it with the "Pandemic" debuff for 3 turns. If the target dies while under the effect of "Pandemic", it will transmit its remaining Blight to a random enemy.

A powerful payoff, rewarding stacking blight on a single target. As Blight, by nature, is a slow tactic, the payoff can be a powerful in a game that rewards fast battles.



I hope you get the picture on the sort of effects I am talking about. Similar ideas could be applied to other game mechanics - like Bleed, for example. Balance can be a bit challenging on those types of effects, so it is important to be cognizant of the drawbacks of any given strategy(For blight, it would be its slow modus operandi).
If you are interested in such, and possibly more, ideas, I'd be happy to share more with you. I got some ideas for nigh every class, to make their playstyles more interesting and diverse, while also "fixing" some roster issues(Like, for example, the lack of good healers beside Vestal/Occultist, making them be the optimal option way too often).
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Sep 8, 2018 @ 5:00pm 
Love the feedback! I agree that payoffs are a cool design idea - it could be a good way to differentiate PD's blight-centric playstyle from characters like Abom or Antiquarian who also blight.
I'm a crazy amateur programmer, so I don't know if that's within my capabilities, but I'll give it a try the next time I dedicate some time to this mod (I'd say it's fairly feature complete for my initial goals).

If you're down to write them out, feel free to drop any and all ideas you have in here. I can't promise I'll use them (or even be able to use them b/c of my ability to program!), but I'll certainly credit you if I do!

Thanks!
-Julian
MelodyFunction Sep 8, 2018 @ 5:47pm 
Glad to see you are interested! I may not have modded DD so far, but I may try to in the future. I am pretty adept at such things(Despite having zero actual programming knowledge), due to my urge to make games I play "better" for myself. So, if I could help in any way, feel free to ask. I got time on my hands, so if you just give me a tedious task you may not have time for, I can do that. Two crazy amateurs together might be able to work something out, eh?
On that note: I think I got an idea on how to code "target blighted" abilities: Make it simply an AoE, hitting all enemies and make the ability auto-miss if the target is not blighted. Might be an work?

Soo~ now onto some more feedback then:

Continuing on with the blight-synergy, a few ideas:
Some characters should have small, supportive aspects - like a random "reduce blight resistance" or a simple blight-skill(GRs Poison Dart comes to mind). If possible, I'd be interested in an ability that increases blight damage taken.
A different type of pay-off is a non-damage focused pay-off, like "Target all blighted; Reduce dmg dealt".
With DoTs especially, nice pay-off dynamics can be created by making an ability remove the DoT for extra-power. Same can be done with Marks, tbh(Remove mark for bonus dmg), which would make the mark-gameplay a lot more compelling and mark comps more strategic.


On to another topic: Leper. The Lepers main problem/drawback is his unreliability. While I actually like the Leper quite a lot, I can understand the concern. A very easy way to "fix" him, while still keeping his spirit, is to give him a damage buff(Somewhere between 25%-50%) for the next 2 attacks. In terms of balance, a miss may still hurt, but he can recoup some of the damage lost. In terms of style, well.... After missing twice in a row, your leper will hit like 2 trucks - which would be a pretty great feeling.


Furthermore, another problem is the lack of healing in game. There are 2 classes that can heal well - and a slew of others that are so-so at healing, especially later into the game and with the anti-stalling mechanic. In other words... For any medium+ dungeon, an optimal comp will have to include 1 of the 2 healers.
This is bad design: It kills variety. Sure, success can be had without those or any healers at all, but having either Vestal or Occultist around simply increases your chances of success.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed - and I am surprised Red Hook does not do that, honestly. I get that healing should not be as big a part in DD as in other turn-based systems, but if they wanted to go for that... Vestal and Occultist should never have been this good as healers.
So, instead, I would like to see reasonable buffs to a few heals. The one especially coming to mind is the HoT of the Antiquarian. While meant as a "weak" class... Actually weak classes are no fun. I'd be happy with "offensively weak" - especially weak(Really like your version of Nervous Stab, so kudos for that).
Antiquarian should be a third main-line healer. Buffing her HoT slightly would go a long way towards that + Trinkets designed for better heals. She should not have access to big single-target heal or multi-target heal - so definitely a worse healer than Occultist or Vestal, but a better sustainer than both of them. This would give her a strong niche, working especially well in long dungeons(Incidentally, that fits her theme pretty well).
While on the topic of Antiquarian: She is a prime candidate for a "supporter"-type character, supporting various synergies.


Lastly, I wish to bring attention to the Occultist. A very... strange class. You can bring him as dmg vs eldritch - or just bring an actual damage dealer for better results. And you can bring him in as healer when you want to run marks. I do not deny that the occultist his strong - nice utility, position versatility and a good healer. But numbers can make anything strong.
"Occultist" is a very interesting concept to design from, yet I feel it was not used very well in DD. One would have expected some "ritualistic" stuff, but there is little of this in-combat. Personally, I'd like to give an overhaul to the occultist to turn him into something more than "second-best healer that sets marks". I like how the occultist has those "double-edged sword" types of abilities and I think more can be done with that concept.
When talking about a bigger rework, though, I would add it as an "optional" for this mod. If you are interested in overhauling the Occultist, we could pool our ideas together and see what we come up with.


So, that's it for now. I got a concept of a - very complex - highwayman rework lying around somewhere... But I doubt that one would be implementable(It relies on a "charge" system, utilizing those charges to use and empower his ranged attacks).
Last edited by MelodyFunction; Sep 8, 2018 @ 5:49pm
MelodyFunction Sep 9, 2018 @ 5:42pm 
Double posting, cause I found a rather... big annoyance.
Abom's new Slam is basically unfunctional the way it is now. He has no way to move himself forward to use it(Except basically for "passing" a turn with move). Other dancers can help him out with that, but that is hardly worthwhile and messes him up in human form. This makes it a bit of a "dead" ability
Additionally, without the ability to move, the Abom is pretty firmly rank 2 and nowhere else:
Cannot use skills from rank 4
Cannot use Beast in Rank 3
Cannot use Human in Rank 1

Playing Abom is less of a choice of "Do I play Beast or Human Abom" - he would have a normal 7-skill moveset in that case. It is a choice of when to go Beast, as it is bogged down by negatives on stress. Thus, he feels rather underwhelming currently, as it is needlessly difficult to make him work.

There are a number of simple fixes to this, but I thought of a more... interesting one. Changes I made:

Transforming into beast moves forward 3
Transforming into Human moves backward 1
Slam now moves backward 1 and deals more dmg(Think I used 60% or 65%?).

This makes Slam even stronger, but it is difficult to get off multiple Slams, as you lose Pos1 upon using it. Combing with other dancers(Like Highwayman), it works out better, but the stress penalty of using slam is pretty big, making it a risky move.

Sidenote: I messed around a bit to try and actually test it... and I added self-targeted "push" and "pull" effects to Transform to make it work. Looks a bit wonky, but works very well. Already tried a HMW, Abom, Houndmaster, Vestal comp with this... Worked out pretty well, but the stress from spamming Slam could be hard to deal with - which is good, I'd say.
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Sep 10, 2018 @ 6:40pm 
That's intentional - the goal is to make you choose where you put the Abom in your party. Since the Abom has access to all 8 moves in his kit in a dungeon (as opposed to the usual 4), letting him use every single move in his kit from rank 2 makes it so that you would never have to think about running him anywhere else. Adding movement to his character does solve this issue, but infringes on the multitude of "dancing" characters that already exist (GR/HWM in particular come to mind).

With Slam only available in rank 1, you could make the decision to run a rank 1 Abom frontliner, with access to his self heal but no utility human skills. This would work well in a party with multiple sources of stress healing, for example. Rank 2 Abom loses access to this damage as a tradeoff for having access to his utility skills, while maintaining respectable damage from Rake and Rage. You can also create interesting parties that resolve around shuffling around the Abom so that he can be in rank 1 or 2 depending on how his team is moving. I think this is much more interesting than making him a Jack-of-all-trades style character who can do it all at once.
MelodyFunction Sep 10, 2018 @ 8:06pm 
I see, but I think that does miss the point of the Abomination. As mentioned, Abom's gameplay is not about either his human or beast form, but largely about both. As Beastform is riddled with negatives to stress, this is where his balance comes from - other characters with largely similar sets do not suffer these negatives.
Your version of slam just makes an ability unusable - for the most part. While it is to cool to be "forced" to play around this ability, it is not worthwhile doing so - HMW completely outclasses his Slam.
Omicoatl.ttv  [developer] Sep 10, 2018 @ 8:49pm 
I think we just have fundamentally different ideas of what we want to see from the character (which is fine!). I see where you're coming from though, I'll consider it if I address this mod again in the future!

Also - feel free to take my code and modify it for mods of your own. Just give me a shoutout in the description!
MelodyFunction Sep 10, 2018 @ 9:10pm 
Originally posted by CreamyBuscemi:
I think we just have fundamentally different ideas of what we want to see from the character (which is fine!). I see where you're coming from though, I'll consider it if I address this mod again in the future!

Also - feel free to take my code and modify it for mods of your own. Just give me a shoutout in the description!
Hm, that certainly seems to be the case. I would like to focus the Aboms beast form into a "risk/reward" type of form, where balancing the risk - not his positioning - is the challenge. You wish to make his positional-implications more nuanced and reward different playstyles with that. Lacks a reward for Human Form, though.


Of course I'd give you a shoutout if I ever do something myself ^.^
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