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- Zealous Accusation:
Damage from -40% > -50%
Now additionally debuffs targets with -15/-16/-17/-18/-20 accuracy for 3 turns on hit
- Battle Heal:
Can no longer target self
Now guards for 3 turns (equivalent duration to MaA’s guard)
- Holy Lance:
Now moves the Crusader forward 2 spaces instead of 1
I think Crusader is in a great place currently. Zealous Accusation was still a little boring, so I added a thematically appropriate debuff and tuned its damage down appropriately. Additionally, giving Battle Heal a guarding mechanic makes the skill far more interesting and usable later in the game, and fits well as a frontliner (or backline tank!) in parties without dedicated healers. Finally, making Holy Lance move 2 forward instead of 1 allows the Crusader to better find his desired rank 1 position in shuffle parties, as well as make shuffle cheese (such as GR, Jester, and Crusader dancing repeatedly for huge damage) harder to execute.
Grave Robber:
- Pick to the Face:
Now additionally inflicts a 3 turn -5/-6/-7/-8/-10% protection debuff on hit
- Lunge:
Now inflicts a -10/-13/-15/-18/-20% dodge debuff on the Grave Robber for 3 turns
- Flashing Daggers:
No longer targets ranks 2&3, now targets entire enemy party
No longer inflicts bleed debuff
Damage from -33% > -66%
- Poison Dart:
Damage from -60% > -70%
No longer inflicts blight resistance debuff
Now inflicts a 3 turn -1/-1/-2/-2/-3 speed debuff on target
The Grave Robber had a mix of really cool skills and generic, boring ones. I gave Pick to the Face a -prot debuff in addition to its armor piercing capabilities to differentiate it from the Shieldbreaker’s armor piercing skill and make using this move even more appealing against high prot targets. Lunge was all-around too good, and associating some risk with using it should make Lunge spam less braindead in shuffle parties. Flashing Daggers was basically a poor man’s Harvest (-bleed resistance in a kit with no bleed is an odd thing imo), so I’ve fully revamped it. It is now the only pure damage skill in the game that hits the entire enemy party, giving the GR an excellent AoE niche and making choosing between Flashing Daggers and single target skills like Lunge or Thrown Dagger much tougher. Poison Dart was just too similar to Antiquarian’s Festering Vapours or Abomination’s Beast’s Bile - I’ve removed the blight resist debuff and instead given it a niche as a blight+speed debuff.
Hellion:
-General:
All skills that inflict Exhaust debuffs now only inflict them on hits, rather than hits and misses
- Wicked Hack:
Now does 20/25/30/35/40% bonus damage to bleeding targets
- If it Bleeds:
Now additionally inflicts a 3 turn dodge debuff of -5/-6/-7/-8/-10% on hit
- Breakthrough:
Now clears corpses
- Barbaric YAWP:
Can now only be used from ranks 3/2, rather than 2/1
YAWP is just too good a skill, even with a per-battle limit. Why wouldn’t you start the battle with it every time and keep Hellion a stun bot? To combat this I’ve done two things. First I’ve made Wicked Hack and If It Bleed more appealing skills, to make you question whether you want to actually hurt your damage with a YAWP. Second, I’ve made YAWP only usable from the middle ranks, to make you choose between the powerful rank 1 skills Bleed Out/Iron Swan and a more supportive middle rank Hellion with YAWP. I’ve also given some nice quality-of-life changes to the exhaust debuff (now only applies on your hits, rather than hits and misses) and given Breakthrough a corpse clear to help it out.
Highwayman:
- Wicked Slice:
Now can target ranks 1/2/3 instead of 1/2
- Pistol Shot:
Can now only target ranks 3/4 instead of 2/3/4
Now does 25% bonus damage when used from ranks 3 or 4
- Grapeshot Blast:
Now usable from ranks 2/1 rather than 3/2
Now pushes HWM back 1 space
- Duelist’s Advance:
Riposte damage from -40/-33/-25/-20/-15% > -40/-35/-30/-25/-20%
- Open Vein:
No longer debuffs bleed resistance
I wanted to play up the HWM’s positional mechanics to make him more unique. Pistol Shot was a straight worse version of Thrown Dagger pre-CoM, and it’s okay now, but giving it a significant buff from the backline gives you a real reason to have a backline HWM. I’ve given Grapeshot a 1 space pushback to aid with this and make it more useful in shuffle parties, and made Wicked Slice able to target rank 3 to give it some more advantage over Open Vein. Open Vein was overall too strong, imo, so I’ve removed the -bleed debuff. Finally, I feel the riposte is the Man-at-Arm’s signature move, so I’ve weakened HWM’s so it infringes less on this - but left the crit intact, as critical ripostes feel very appropriate for him.
- Target Whistle:
Debuff chance from 130/140/150/160/170% > 100/110/120/130/140%
- Lick Wounds:
Now usable in all ranks 4/3/2/1 instead of 4/3/2
- Guard Dog:
Guard duration changed from 2 turns to 3 turns
- Blackjack:
Now only usable from rank 1 instead of ranks 2/1
I wanted to play up the rank versatility of the Houndmaster, as well as weaken the overwhelming strength of Blackjack. Making Lick Wounds usable in rank 1 allows rank 1 “tank” Houndmaster to self-heal, making up for his lack of a protection buff. I’ve also made Guard Dog have an equivalent duration to the MaA’s Defender. I felt that Blackjack was too good a skill for how versatile it was, and limiting it to rank 1 makes it so that you can to build around a rank 1 HM if you want to use it, and frees up rank 2 Houndmasters to focus on putting out damage without the temptation to spend turns stunning every battle.
Jester:
- Slice Off:
Damage from -33% > -45%
Now inflicts a 3 turn -10/-11/-12/-13/-15% damage debuff to target
Overall RH have put the Jester in an excellent place with their changes. The only skill I felt was lackluster and boring was Slice Off, which I’ve given a -damage debuff. This fits well with Solo putting the Jester in danger, and a bleed+damage debuff move wasn’t present in game beforehand, so it’s a nice change of pace. The base damage has been nerfed a bit to compensate for the added utility.
Leper:
- Chop:
Now does bonus 15/20/25/30/35% damage two size-2 enemies
- Hew:
Now gives the accuracy buff previously on Purge
Accuracy buff now only activates on hits
- Purge:
No longer buffs accuracy
- Solemnity:
Now usable from all ranks
- Withstand:
Now usable from all ranks
- Intimidate:
No longer ignores stealth or destealths
Now unmarks allies on hit, in addition to marking the Leper
Chop was just a boring single target damage skill, and giving the Leper added damage against large targets fits thematically. I felt that his accuracy issues made him a volatile enough pick in Veteran/Champion dungeons to not need to hit the skill’s base damage to compensate. I removed the accuracy buff from Purge and threw it on Hew as Purge is fairly unique without it as relatively high-damage+push+corpse clear skill, and Hew is quite boring. I made Solemnity and Withstand usable from all ranks as quality of life change - the fact that the Leper cannot actually do damage to anything from the backline should be punishment enough for shuffles, so letting him at least heal and buff back there feels fair. Finally, I got rid of Intimidates anti-stealth use (didn’t seem to fit, is he looking in the general direction of a stealthed enemy and scaring them into revealing themselves? Lmao), but added an ally mark removal - this is both useful for keeping his allies safe and thematic, since he’s drawing enemy attention to himself.
Man-at-Arms:
- Crush:
Damage from 0% > -20%
Now inflicts a 3 turn stuff resistance debuff of -10/-15/-20/-25/-30% to target
- Rampart:
Damage from -60% > -50%
- Retribution:
Riposte damage from -40/-35/-30/-25/-20% > -30/-25/-20/-15/-10%
Crit from 0/1/2/3/4% to 0/1/1/2/2%
- Command:
Reworked entirely from party-wife buff into Mark+buff
Now marks a single enemy for 3 turns, and gives allies a 2 turn buff that gives them 5/6/7/8/10% bonus crit and 15/17/20/22/25% bonus damage against marked targets. Only usable once per battle.
- Bolster:
No longer buffs dodge. Now, in addition to reducing stress received, gives allies 20% move resistance and 20% increased virtue chance for the battle.
I felt that the Man-at-Arms raw damage was a little too high, so I nerfed Crush’s damage and upped Rampart’s damage. I feel like he should have most of his damage in Ripostes and utility moves. Similarly, I’ve upped his riposte damage slightly, but nerfed the crit value - I want his ripostes to be solid damage, not spikey damage like the HWM’s. I like the idea behind Red Hook’s new Command functionality, but I think it missed the mark, as it doesn’t really give the feel of a veteran leader commanding his troops, as well as being kinda wonky (it buffs guarded teammate’s damage, but you can only guard one at once unless you’re running double guard etc etc). I’ve implemented a version where the MaA singles out a target with a mark and his team gets massively increased damage towards it, giving the MaA a big high moment in fights and making him the ultimate addition to a mark party. Bolster similarly was cool, but +dodge is a little boring and similar to what I’ve given Antiquarian. Instead I gave the skill +move resist and pushed its anti-stress capabilities to 11 by giving it + virtue chance too, really fitting the idea of holding the line under the MaA’s seasoned command.
Occultist:
- Abyssal Artillery:
Now gives the same -5 torch penalty that Hands from the Abyss gives.
- Daemon’s Pull:
Now gives the same -5 torch penalty as HftA.
- Vulnerability Hex
Old debuff gone, but still marks for 3 turns
Now gives party a 2 turn buff which buffs damage by 15/20/20/20/25% when torchlight is at 25 or below
Another case of making a previously generic and weak Mark ability more interesting. Now the Occultist ups his team’s damage in darkness, making him great for pitch black runs. I’ve added a torch penalty to AA and Daemon’s Pull to make them more thematic and synergistic with this as well.
Plague Doctor:
- Incision:
Now applies a -20/-23/-26/-30/-33% blight resistance debuff to target
- Emboldening Vapours:
Damage and speed values identical to pre-CoM balance values (25/27/29/31/33% damage and 3/4/5/6/7 speed)
Only lasts for 2 turns (rather than entire battle)
Removes stun from target
No longer limited to 2 uses per battle
- Disorienting Blast:
Now hits entire enemy party rather than a single target
On hit, shuffles entire allied party
Incision was a bit boring, and giving it a blight resistance debuff spices that up and makes the skill more appealing to use at times. I like RH’s changes to Vapours, but I felt the one I had here was more unique as a reaction to stuns (as well as keeps from saturating the game with full-battle buffs). Disorienting Blast was pretty much just a crappy Flashbang - boring and very hard to justify using over her other skills. Instead of a single-target stun, it now offers you the chance to stun the entire enemy party, at the cost of shuffling your own in the crossfire. This is a high-risk, high-reward skill - unless you’ve build your party around dancing, in which case this skill fits right in (though the PD doesn’t… so you still have to work for it!).
Vestal:
- Mace Bash:
Can now target rows 1/2/3 rather than 1/2
No longer deals bonus damage to Unholy targets
Now applies a -10/-12/-15/-17/-20% damage debuff to target
- Hand of Light:
Self buff from 25/27/30/33/35% damage and 6/7/8/9/10 accuracy for 3 turns to 10/15/20/25/30% damage and 20% heals when torch is above 75 for 3 turns
Now gives +6 torchlight
I felt that +damage to Unholy was the Crusader’s niche, so I took it off of the Vestal. Instead, Mace Bash now inflicts a -damage debuff on the target, which fits the Vestal’s supportive role. I’ve also extended its reach to rank 3 for usability purposes. Red Hook was going in the right direction with the Hand of Light rework, but I like mine a bit better still (especially its dichotomy with the Occultist), giving rank 2 Vestal a powerful way to buff her damage and healing, but only in high torchlight. Adding +torchlight to the skill itself makes this more manageable.
As for the changes, I quickly realized I'm not actually good enough at the game to make a good judgement call on the balance of everything, so I'm opting to toggle it on and off when I feel like something different, which fortunately seems to work flawlessly (not all games are so nice about mid-game tweaking).
But, I did have a few noteable situations involving the "side effects" of some skills that now do more than one thing. First, the plague doctor's wacky scramble grenade; I knew the risk of using it, but it also happened to be the only corpse clear skill, which was what I really needed it for, so it actually ended up being a major drawback that the only corpse clearer was a full party scramble. Then, the crusader's heal, which now guards in addition to healing, caused a few problems because I was trying to use him for healing more than tanking, which meant he got in the way of ripostes and such and took a ton of unintended damage. I'm not saying either of these were bad changes, but they did complicate things in a weird way: they were seemingly intended as buffs, but ended up being major drawbacks. As an aside, I also found emboldening vapors much less appealing as a temporary effect and the hellion stun nerf was similarly hard to work around, which were the only things that really felt like the mod was making my game directly harder (even if those two were arguably too powerful).
I also liked a few new thematic things, like the highwayman's long range pistol bonus, the leper's bonus to large targets, and the occultist's dark buff (although I couldn't help but think that last one might be a little crazy if I was actually good enough to handle dark runs!). So, I guess my feedback is a bit.. inconclusive! I'm not sure the game felt "rebalanced" but the "variety" part was definitely strong. Which is why I'm planning to use it on and off as someone who doesn't know the normal game very well; I like variety, but don't know I need it yet! And my interest in the mod was the idea of more viable party comps, so I didn't need to always use the "right" groups.
Anyway, sorry for the text wall, but wanted to give my feedback! Definitely hope the mod gets more attention (I think it'd help if it had a star rating in the workshop, so I gave it an upvote). If nothing else, the fact that you wrote out every change in detail, and the reasoning behind them, was what really had me impressed. People should at least give it a try for something different!
I agree that some of the changes can make things harder. I like having drawbacks to skills - for example, I like that the PD's scramble grenade either encourages you to pick another way to clear corpses, or change your party around to deal with shuffling. I want every character to feel unique in some way, as in the base game I feel that many characters are just interchangeable (or often just worse versions of other ones). I actually might look into making PD's vapours battle-wide again, as well.
I would love a rating - unfortunately too many people download mods without rating them (myself included! Something we should all change) making it hard to get a large enough rating to display. Thank you so much again!
My next playthrough, I will start with this mod and see how it goes. Looking forward to it!
Now, for some feedback:
As I have not started playing so far, I cannot exactly comment on the balance - but I could add suggestions regarding creativity. I don't want to sound arrogant, but I am pretty adept at designing classes, skillsets and whatever(Have a background in modding games myself).
First thing that comes to mind: Increase synergy and, especially, create more "pay-off" abilities.
Pay-off Abilities reward you for having performed a specific task - a simple example would be the marked abilities, rewarding you for marking enemies.
However, pay-offs do not need to always be simple damage increases and, so are, there are no "scaling" payoffs in the game(except Jester Finale).
A great place to start with this would be Blights - specifically, Plague Doctor.
As THE blight class, she should actually have a "reward" for stacking blight on enemies.
A simple idea would be to create an ability to specifically target only blighted enemies. For example:
Expunge: Deals base dmg and stuns all enemies afflicted with Blight.
A simple concept of this, could replace the problematic Blinding Grenade. A sizeable payoff for Blighting enemies, yet not necessarily OP, due to the preparation requirement+CD is a strong balancing lever.
Other simple ideas would, of course, be abilities that deal bonus dmg to blighted targets.
A more complex idea would be something that actually takes advantage of the amount of blight stacked on an enemy - the question is, if that would be possible at all. A few simple concepts(Numbers can, of course, be changed):
Pandemic:
Deals damage to the target equal to twice the target's Blight and affects it with the "Pandemic" debuff for 3 turns. If the target dies while under the effect of "Pandemic", it will transmit its remaining Blight to a random enemy.
A powerful payoff, rewarding stacking blight on a single target. As Blight, by nature, is a slow tactic, the payoff can be a powerful in a game that rewards fast battles.
I hope you get the picture on the sort of effects I am talking about. Similar ideas could be applied to other game mechanics - like Bleed, for example. Balance can be a bit challenging on those types of effects, so it is important to be cognizant of the drawbacks of any given strategy(For blight, it would be its slow modus operandi).
If you are interested in such, and possibly more, ideas, I'd be happy to share more with you. I got some ideas for nigh every class, to make their playstyles more interesting and diverse, while also "fixing" some roster issues(Like, for example, the lack of good healers beside Vestal/Occultist, making them be the optimal option way too often).
I'm a crazy amateur programmer, so I don't know if that's within my capabilities, but I'll give it a try the next time I dedicate some time to this mod (I'd say it's fairly feature complete for my initial goals).
If you're down to write them out, feel free to drop any and all ideas you have in here. I can't promise I'll use them (or even be able to use them b/c of my ability to program!), but I'll certainly credit you if I do!
Thanks!
-Julian
On that note: I think I got an idea on how to code "target blighted" abilities: Make it simply an AoE, hitting all enemies and make the ability auto-miss if the target is not blighted. Might be an work?
Soo~ now onto some more feedback then:
Continuing on with the blight-synergy, a few ideas:
Some characters should have small, supportive aspects - like a random "reduce blight resistance" or a simple blight-skill(GRs Poison Dart comes to mind). If possible, I'd be interested in an ability that increases blight damage taken.
A different type of pay-off is a non-damage focused pay-off, like "Target all blighted; Reduce dmg dealt".
With DoTs especially, nice pay-off dynamics can be created by making an ability remove the DoT for extra-power. Same can be done with Marks, tbh(Remove mark for bonus dmg), which would make the mark-gameplay a lot more compelling and mark comps more strategic.
On to another topic: Leper. The Lepers main problem/drawback is his unreliability. While I actually like the Leper quite a lot, I can understand the concern. A very easy way to "fix" him, while still keeping his spirit, is to give him a damage buff(Somewhere between 25%-50%) for the next 2 attacks. In terms of balance, a miss may still hurt, but he can recoup some of the damage lost. In terms of style, well.... After missing twice in a row, your leper will hit like 2 trucks - which would be a pretty great feeling.
Furthermore, another problem is the lack of healing in game. There are 2 classes that can heal well - and a slew of others that are so-so at healing, especially later into the game and with the anti-stalling mechanic. In other words... For any medium+ dungeon, an optimal comp will have to include 1 of the 2 healers.
This is bad design: It kills variety. Sure, success can be had without those or any healers at all, but having either Vestal or Occultist around simply increases your chances of success.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed - and I am surprised Red Hook does not do that, honestly. I get that healing should not be as big a part in DD as in other turn-based systems, but if they wanted to go for that... Vestal and Occultist should never have been this good as healers.
So, instead, I would like to see reasonable buffs to a few heals. The one especially coming to mind is the HoT of the Antiquarian. While meant as a "weak" class... Actually weak classes are no fun. I'd be happy with "offensively weak" - especially weak(Really like your version of Nervous Stab, so kudos for that).
Antiquarian should be a third main-line healer. Buffing her HoT slightly would go a long way towards that + Trinkets designed for better heals. She should not have access to big single-target heal or multi-target heal - so definitely a worse healer than Occultist or Vestal, but a better sustainer than both of them. This would give her a strong niche, working especially well in long dungeons(Incidentally, that fits her theme pretty well).
While on the topic of Antiquarian: She is a prime candidate for a "supporter"-type character, supporting various synergies.
Lastly, I wish to bring attention to the Occultist. A very... strange class. You can bring him as dmg vs eldritch - or just bring an actual damage dealer for better results. And you can bring him in as healer when you want to run marks. I do not deny that the occultist his strong - nice utility, position versatility and a good healer. But numbers can make anything strong.
"Occultist" is a very interesting concept to design from, yet I feel it was not used very well in DD. One would have expected some "ritualistic" stuff, but there is little of this in-combat. Personally, I'd like to give an overhaul to the occultist to turn him into something more than "second-best healer that sets marks". I like how the occultist has those "double-edged sword" types of abilities and I think more can be done with that concept.
When talking about a bigger rework, though, I would add it as an "optional" for this mod. If you are interested in overhauling the Occultist, we could pool our ideas together and see what we come up with.
So, that's it for now. I got a concept of a - very complex - highwayman rework lying around somewhere... But I doubt that one would be implementable(It relies on a "charge" system, utilizing those charges to use and empower his ranged attacks).
Abom's new Slam is basically unfunctional the way it is now. He has no way to move himself forward to use it(Except basically for "passing" a turn with move). Other dancers can help him out with that, but that is hardly worthwhile and messes him up in human form. This makes it a bit of a "dead" ability
Additionally, without the ability to move, the Abom is pretty firmly rank 2 and nowhere else:
Cannot use skills from rank 4
Cannot use Beast in Rank 3
Cannot use Human in Rank 1
Playing Abom is less of a choice of "Do I play Beast or Human Abom" - he would have a normal 7-skill moveset in that case. It is a choice of when to go Beast, as it is bogged down by negatives on stress. Thus, he feels rather underwhelming currently, as it is needlessly difficult to make him work.
There are a number of simple fixes to this, but I thought of a more... interesting one. Changes I made:
Transforming into beast moves forward 3
Transforming into Human moves backward 1
Slam now moves backward 1 and deals more dmg(Think I used 60% or 65%?).
This makes Slam even stronger, but it is difficult to get off multiple Slams, as you lose Pos1 upon using it. Combing with other dancers(Like Highwayman), it works out better, but the stress penalty of using slam is pretty big, making it a risky move.
Sidenote: I messed around a bit to try and actually test it... and I added self-targeted "push" and "pull" effects to Transform to make it work. Looks a bit wonky, but works very well. Already tried a HMW, Abom, Houndmaster, Vestal comp with this... Worked out pretty well, but the stress from spamming Slam could be hard to deal with - which is good, I'd say.
With Slam only available in rank 1, you could make the decision to run a rank 1 Abom frontliner, with access to his self heal but no utility human skills. This would work well in a party with multiple sources of stress healing, for example. Rank 2 Abom loses access to this damage as a tradeoff for having access to his utility skills, while maintaining respectable damage from Rake and Rage. You can also create interesting parties that resolve around shuffling around the Abom so that he can be in rank 1 or 2 depending on how his team is moving. I think this is much more interesting than making him a Jack-of-all-trades style character who can do it all at once.
Your version of slam just makes an ability unusable - for the most part. While it is to cool to be "forced" to play around this ability, it is not worthwhile doing so - HMW completely outclasses his Slam.
Also - feel free to take my code and modify it for mods of your own. Just give me a shoutout in the description!
Of course I'd give you a shoutout if I ever do something myself ^.^