Just regarding point 4/ The Tiger is available in 1941, but by the time you've researched it (say 5-6 months) then have built enough to make a Div it gets pretty closer to 1943 than 41. If you changed the research time to 1943, I'd never bother even researching them as I wouldn't have a Div till after the war.

+ the Tiger was introduce to the battlefield in 1942, so guess research started fair bit before then.

About the Bug report overflowing, yea, good idea to create new thread, poss Stj3rn + chums could create a main Suggestions thread.

Originally posted by sionprawn:

Just regarding point 4/ The Tiger is available in 1941, but by the time you've researched it (say 5-6 months) then have built enough to make a Div it gets pretty closer to 1943 than 41. If you changed the research time to 1943, I'd never bother even researching them as I wouldn't have a Div till after the war.

+ the Tiger was introduce to the battlefield in 1942, so guess research started fair bit before then.

About the Bug report overflowing, yea, good idea to create new thread, poss Stj3rn + chums could create a main Suggestions thread.

only 60 built in 1942, so it will be changed to 1942 I guess. Would be pretty historical.

Yea, but if they built some in 1942, then they would have started researching way before that.

Just read, they had prototype test models in 1941, so they would have started research before the prototype.

Originally posted by sionprawn:

Just read, they had prototype test models in 1941, so they would have started research before the prototype.

1942 will do that, otherwise you will have huge numbers in 1942 already. Research times +-210 so in August can u start producing, if u wont take penalization.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that USSR treaty bonus, so dont worry:D will have it even earlier, End 1941 possible.

with 26% efficiency...6 factories... 1,2 weekly... very good after... 2 months 2,3 weekly

So there is plan to have Pz III A / E / H / J / L.... Id make some sugestions as you please.

When I look into production numbers, if we want to stick to 5 buildable types:
A-10....B-10...C-15.........maybe add this as unbuildable prototope (as Bf109 A now)

D-30 .............better armor...3,7cm L/45.........1st to be buildable from 1938
E/F-100.+450......engine,suspension armor...3.7cm L/45....................1939
G/H-600+280......armor .............................. 5cm L/42......................1940
J - 1521..........better armor ........................ 5cm L/42......................1941
L/M - 1470+517.....better armor ...................5 cm L/60.....................1942

with this we will be able to reach so so historical production preventing huge numbers in Polish campaign..Maybe we can help boost it a little if research times will be little shorter, 90days or so. From G I've stopped mentioning upgrades except armor, although it's upgrading always as I see now...

If we agree on tanks first, TD/AG can be added later.

Originally posted by Shakar:

Originally posted by sionprawn:

Just read, they had prototype test models in 1941, so they would have started research before the prototype.

1942 will do that, otherwise you will have huge numbers in 1942 already. Research times +-210 so in August can u start producing, if u wont take penalization.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that USSR treaty bonus, so dont worry:D will have it even earlier, End 1941 possible.

with 26% efficiency...6 factories... 1,2 weekly... very good after... 2 months 2,3 weekly

Lets say you start research in early 1941, say March (then takes between 5-6 months, I just did it in game I was playing with all the bonuses you can get), that takes you to Late 1941 then using your build equation of "very good after... 2 months 2,3 week", after 1 year of this you'd have 150 (on the generous side), which would be by Late 1942. Around 150 is not that many for late 1942.

150 by end of 1942 surely. But production at that date will be around 6/week with 6 factories, So 1/week/factory.

80 in 1942, 650 in 1943 . Thats historical production. With ten factories in 1943 u will get it in game easily.

I don't see 150 (under generous circumstances, no shortages, and all factories fully functional) by the end of 1942 as that great a problem, when history show they built 80. In the game I just played it took me a lot longer to build that many because some of my factories were being bombed + lack of resources, and I considered Tigers to be the lowest priority. Keeping stockpiles of equipment for Divs that were already in the field was a higher priority.

And with 6/week you'd only produce 300 in a year in 43, whereas in history they produce 650 in 1943, so all in all with 6 factories you'd end up with less Tigers than in history. But I don't see a big difference in the numbers.

Basicaly you could have a few in 42, but too few to make any difference to anything, and by your numbers you'd end up with less than in history by 43.

P.s hope you don't think I'm arguing, am enjoying this debate :)

Me too. 6/week with 6 factories So with 10 Its ok. Also research time can be adjusted too every month counts. 150 in 1942 seems ok to me. You need 600 in 1943 only then:D And production rate and efficiency will raise. This all is with only 4 tank workshops...and all of this is peace of cake compared to Panther production rates.

Made some testing. With all dispersed industry/tools techs till 1941 researched, 8 tank workshops,10 improved factories, motivated industry lvl 2. + 6 factories assigned... got 100 tigers in first 6 months:D. After 8 months from starting the production I have 170 tigers, hit efficiency cap... 1,05 tiger daily...with 6 factories. So dont worry:D
If you start production in Nov 41, by the end of 1942 you will have +350 tigers, end 1943 +700 (depends on when do you research 1943 industry/tools techs, maybe 800). Repeat. With 6 factories.

MOD NOTES:

In order to players have a reason to use each battalion type, Total War mod tunes all units with the following ideas:

1.- Forts are more important here. All generals have a 30% penalty, so use of heavy Artillery types is useful.

Sadly, as 1.3.3... AI is lamentable. I dont usually multiplay, but probably in a player vs player both will make use otf it.

(my wishlist: to include malus 30% directly in forts, instead generals would be nicer, guess no posible)

2.- Each support "company" is pretty weak for itself, but give a general bonus to all the division. Just note bigger divisions favour more than smaller ones from the bonus.

As bonus was too high in vanilla / bice, it has overall reduced here. So even combining 2 similar units, bonus still not so exploitable.

(my wishlist: Eliminate all "support" duplicities, SS support units perhaps better be skipped, and motorize all support, because these dont limit speed)


3.- Each frontline battalion needs to be somewhat "nerfed" or "buffed" slightly, to make sense using other units, i.e... if tanks have 50 soft attack, why do i need artillery adding 15?

Part of these "bonus" comes from battalion bonuses (for example, bonus to attack forts, to attack mountains), while others depend on the equipment (the objective of this rework):

4.- Artillery (per caliber) is selected as the Base for most calculations. Important note: Artillery is generic (non specific per country), just an average value is going to be used. Note also, each battalion uses different amounts of guns, AA and AT use 24, artillery uses 12, heavier arty uses 8 or 2.

Relative Values at same "gun caliber". then ponderated by amount of guns. Not an exact rule, tho.
Cost ART < AT < AA
Soft ART > AT = AA
Hard AT > AA > ART
Pierce AT > AA > ART
Defense ART > AT > AA
Breakthorough ART > AT > AA

5.- AFVs Relative Values at same "gun caliber". (Note AFVs use 24 / 30 / 45 tanks per battalion, while Artillery uses 12).
Soft ART > SPART > AG > Tanks > TDs
Hard TDs > Tanks > AG > SPART > ART
Defense SPART > ART > Tanks > TDs > AGs
Breakthorough AGs > Tanks > SPART > TDs > ART

- Hardness, Speed, Armour or Reliability do not depend on the battalion type. They are going to be based as much as possible on real war values. Hardness is now based on the width of best plate (with malus for things like open top), while Armour takes into account the best frontal sloped armour.

- Pierce value can not depend on the number of tanks, but needs to be somewhat tuned to represent different doctrines:
TDs = Tanks > AG > SPART = ART

*** this is not the bible, we can change all of these variable as prefer , ideas are welcome.

Defense SPART > ART > Tanks > TDs > AGs. Is it right?...

Originally posted by Shakar:

Defense SPART > ART > Tanks > TDs > AGs. Is it right?...

Unsure if this should be that way. Some examples w current Values:

We can think this as ... Artillery helps defend at any position in the field while defending... even 10 km far from them... while tanks defend their own positions..

12 x guns medium 150 ART Defense 12
24 x guns hummel 150 art defense 19 higher but not 2x
30x Tiger I defense 16 higher but 2.5x equipment... (ok not same caliber...)
30x Jagdtiger defense 16
30 x stuig33 150 defense 7 (i believe this should be an AG instead an Art)


Breakthrough works while on the attack, Art can not follow the speed of the vanguard so easily, while Ags and Tanks are exactly where they are attacking.

Just seemed weird to me that Arty has more defense than TD. 1 unit/ 1 unit.
Stuig should be AG, 150mm Howitzer, but 80 mm/ 50 mm frontal armor. Again really low defense compared to f.e.hummel...