+200% sapper health
Sapped buildings are outlined for teammates
-100% damage penalty

Basically just for disabling buildings for your team to come on through.

Originally posted by Mochi Sandvich:

+200% sapper health
Sapped buildings are outlined for teammates
-100% damage penalty

Basically just for disabling buildings for your team to come on through.

interesting

Sapper causes sentry to attack enemies
Damage is halved, attack speed is halved, and no rockets.
-25% sapper health, -100% damage

A distraction type of sapper that the original failed to achieve with turtle/camp engies. It'll be fun looking at engineers trying to dodge their own bot's bullets.

sapper
+ makes a fake spy how runs around sentry
-sapper has less health

Crafting: 1x Red-Tape Recorder ; 1x Homewrecker ; 1x Reclaimend Metal

Cursed Sapper LV. 25

~ On Sap: Building's Take 200% More Damage and / Do 50% Less Damage / Recharges Teleport 50% Slower / Build Up Metal 50% Slower And Gives 50% Less Metal )
+100% Sapper Health
- Sapper Doesnt Deactivate Buildings
- 100% Sapper Damage ( Doesnt Stack with the 200% Damage Bonus )

Tell me What you Think about this Idea?

Give it the same HP as the Spy, and make critical wrench hits affect it with an instant break. I dunno, just an idea.

Originally posted by Py-Bun:

Originally posted by Mochi Sandvich:

+200% sapper health
Sapped buildings are outlined for teammates
-100% damage penalty

Basically just for disabling buildings for your team to come on through.

interesting

Not really, no. Simply OP due to the existance of a Demoman on the Spy's team- takes 4 hits to remove, which takes 3 times longer than 2 hits (First hit is instantanious, in case you didn't know).

High hit to remove sappers will forever be a broken concept for that very reason, UNLESS the sapper is not disabling the sentry completely.

Also, any "Switches the Sentrie's team" sapper is broken, don't even start, please.

Originally posted by vnchiro:

Sapper causes sentry to attack enemies
Damage is halved, attack speed is halved, and no rockets.
-25% sapper health, -100% damage

A distraction type of sapper that the original failed to achieve with turtle/camp engies. It'll be fun looking at engineers trying to dodge their own bot's bullets.

No betraying sentries.

Originally posted by mishael1:

Originally posted by vnchiro:

Sapper causes sentry to attack enemies
Damage is halved, attack speed is halved, and no rockets.
-25% sapper health, -100% damage

A distraction type of sapper that the original failed to achieve with turtle/camp engies. It'll be fun looking at engineers trying to dodge their own bot's bullets.

No betraying sentries.

What You Think About my Stat's Idea?

Originally posted by KokoStrikeZ:

Crafting: 1x Red-Tape Recorder ; 1x Homewrecker ; 1x Reclaimend Metal

Cursed Sapper LV. 25

~ On Sap: Building's Take 200% More Damage and / Do 50% Less Damage / Recharges Teleport 50% Slower / Build Up Metal 50% Slower And Gives 50% Less Metal )
+100% Sapper Health
- Sapper Doesnt Deactivate Buildings
- 100% Sapper Damage ( Doesnt Stack with the 200% Damage Bonus )

Tell me What you Think about this Idea?

Taking the 200% more damage combined with the +100% sapper health are too, too, much, and +200% more damage taken means 1/3 effective HP on it's own. Also, damage modifiers are multiplicative, so even if the effects stacked the sapper would still do 0 damage.

I would reform this into the following:
Pros

• Sapped buildings work at 50% capacity
  
• +X% sapper HP (Should be 3-shotted by a regular wrench and 4-shotted by a jag, the precentage that makes that)
  
• Sapped buildings are 33% more volnurable to damage (-25% effective HP)

Cons

• -100% damage penalty
• Sapped buildings are not disabled

I don't think it's a good and fun idea, as it doesn't make the spy adopt any real other strategy and more like restricts him from doing stuff like stab &sap or sap &stab. Just makes the game less fun to both the Engineer and the Spy, essentially forcing both into a sap&sap as the Spy is forced to rely on teamwork with his team to beat the sentry, while the engineer enters a time consuming spiral since removing each sapper takes more or less twice the time (First hit is instantanious). I did my best to balance your idea, but to be terribly honest it still a suckish weapon design in my opinion.

Originally posted by mishael1:

Originally posted by KokoStrikeZ:

Crafting: 1x Red-Tape Recorder ; 1x Homewrecker ; 1x Reclaimend Metal

Cursed Sapper LV. 25

~ On Sap: Building's Take 200% More Damage and / Do 50% Less Damage / Recharges Teleport 50% Slower / Build Up Metal 50% Slower And Gives 50% Less Metal )
+100% Sapper Health
- Sapper Doesnt Deactivate Buildings
- 100% Sapper Damage ( Doesnt Stack with the 200% Damage Bonus )

Tell me What you Think about this Idea?

Taking the 200% more damage combined with the +100% sapper health are too, too, much, and +200% more damage taken means 1/3 effective HP on it's own. Also, damage modifiers are multiplicative, so even if the effects stacked the sapper would still do 0 damage.

I would reform this into the following:
Pros

• Sapped buildings work at 50% capacity
  
• +X% sapper HP (Should be 3-shotted by a regular wrench and 4-shotted by a jag, the precentage that makes that)
  
• Sapped buildings are 33% more volnurable to damage (-25% effective HP)

Cons

• -100% damage penalty
• Sapped buildings are not disabled

I don't think it's a good and fun idea, as it doesn't make the spy adopt any real other strategy and more like restricts him from doing stuff like stab &sap or sap &stab. Just makes the game less fun to both the Engineer and the Spy, essentially forcing both into a sap&sap as the Spy is forced to rely on teamwork with his team to beat the sentry, while the engineer enters a time consuming spiral since removing each sapper takes more or less twice the time (First hit is instantanious). I did my best to balance your idea, but to be terribly honest it still a suckish weapon design in my opinion.

ok

Hey mishael, I've noticed you say a lot of concets are broken. mind explaining which ones are and why? Because to me, it seems that if it is an attribute on 3> weapons or isn't used it's just broken.

Originally posted by Mochi Sandvich:

Hey mishael, I've noticed you say a lot of concets are broken. mind explaining which ones are and why? Because to me, it seems that if it is an attribute on 3> weapons or isn't used it's just broken.

Excellent question. Broken, as many define it and so do I, means "Breaks the game", and that excludes the cases were it breaks the game due to the wweapon being too strong or too weak dubbed "OP" and "UP".

Broken weapons usually derive their broken aspect from their core feature. Listing some noteeable reasons for weapons to be broken:

Unfun to fight against (or with, rarely)- example being Gunslinger before it was changed. Because a weapon that makes you annoyed for no real purpose breaks immersion and the the reason we play- fun. And by unfun I mean more unfun than dying to a better player. Both broken concepts in this thread fall under this category - sappers that take forever to remove are a huge pain to face forcing you to dedicate tons of time into a simple sapper removal, sentry betrayal makes the teammates of a bad engineer suffer beyond what having a noob teammate should cause.

Breaks in-game core mechanisms long term- examples being BFB, breakingg hit detection due to the long term high speed, and Pomson, breaking the core mechanism of Uber building and advantage.

Breaks inter-class relations, as in making a class that is your counter no longer counter you at all, or increases a counter significantly. Example beeing the razorback. Includes cases that the weapon interferes with class relation between classes other than the user's like the current Homewrecker, that removes spy soft counter on engineer completely.

Breaks game design- TF2 is a fast paced shooter that relies alot on mobility. Stun mechanics and mechanics that punishes you for jumping are a no-no for just that.

Hands off oneshots that don't require skillful play beyod "hit"- this is a special case of the "unfun to face", as dying for turning a corner and dying instantly before you can do anything at all to prevent your death is amazing-level not fun. Excludes cases were the oneshot is well deserved, such as setup required oneshots (Charged up quickybomb, stickytrap, charge melee), highly skilled play oneshots (headshots and backstabs), as those are not handed to you just because you and the enemy turned a corner but because you were anticipated or outplayed, regular reasons people dye anyway.

Those are not strictly broken things but are flawed design and are also discouraged- using a core concept that already belongs to another weapon in this slot, overcomplicated stat areays, stat arrays with stats that are put together with no purpose other than just because, weapons that help noobs but don't help better players, dubbed Crutches (basically, the for-noobs version of OP),

I hope this helps. Tell me if there is something I mentioned is broken that doesn't fit, I might have missed a category.

Originally posted by mishael1:

Originally posted by Mochi Sandvich:

Hey mishael, I've noticed you say a lot of concets are broken. mind explaining which ones are and why? Because to me, it seems that if it is an attribute on 3> weapons or isn't used it's just broken.

Excellent question. Broken, as many define it and so do I, means "Breaks the game", and that excludes the cases were it breaks the game due to the wweapon being too strong or too weak dubbed "OP" and "UP".

Broken weapons usually derive their broken aspect from their core feature. Listing some noteeable reasons for weapons to be broken:

Unfun to fight against (or with, rarely)- example being Gunslinger before it was changed. Because a weapon that makes you annoyed for no real purpose breaks immersion and the the reason we play- fun. And by unfun I mean more unfun than dying to a better player. Both broken concepts in this thread fall under this category - sappers that take forever to remove are a huge pain to face forcing you to dedicate tons of time into a simple sapper removal, sentry betrayal makes the teammates of a bad engineer suffer beyond what having a noob teammate should cause.

Breaks in-game core mechanisms long term- examples being BFB, breakingg hit detection due to the long term high speed, and Pomson, breaking the core mechanism of Uber building and advantage.

Breaks inter-class relations, as in making a class that is your counter no longer counter you at all, or increases a counter significantly. Example beeing the razorback. Includes cases that the weapon interferes with class relation between classes other than the user's like the current Homewrecker, that removes spy soft counter on engineer completely.

Breaks game design- TF2 is a fast paced shooter that relies alot on mobility. Stun mechanics and mechanics that punishes you for jumping are a no-no for just that.

Hands off oneshots that don't require skillful play beyod "hit"- this is a special case of the "unfun to face", as dying for turning a corner and dying instantly before you can do anything at all to prevent your death is amazing-level not fun. Excludes cases were the oneshot is well deserved, such as setup required oneshots (Charged up quickybomb, stickytrap, charge melee), highly skilled play oneshots (headshots and backstabs), as those are not handed to you just because you and the enemy turned a corner but because you were anticipated or outplayed, regular reasons people dye anyway.

Those are not strictly broken things but are flawed design and are also discouraged- using a core concept that already belongs to another weapon in this slot, overcomplicated stat areays, stat arrays with stats that are put together with no purpose other than just because, weapons that help noobs but don't help better players, dubbed Crutches (basically, the for-noobs version of OP),

I hope this helps. Tell me if there is something I mentioned is broken that doesn't fit, I might have missed a category.

Nah, that's pretty much it. Well said.