My personal opinion as of first posting:

Bloodseeker is strong due to his high scaling and early sustain with Bloodrage. Dagon and Radiance are doubly effective on him. Undeniable strength in all phases.

Terrorblade is great because he has natural splash damage, illusions to tank and farm, (especially useful in the presence of the new strong creeps) and an ultimate that allows easy sustain. Strong farm and scaling illusions makes a strong hero.

As long as you can land Raze and get stacks, Shadow Fiend has been stronger than most others for a few patches now.

Weaver suffers from many flaws as often told by Siege.

Queen of Pain is a hero with a skill set that doesn't lend well to late game but also doesn't work well for early farming. Her abilities look good on paper but all she has that a Dagon doesn't do better is a blink.

Added TA to top, a ranged hero with a built in area attack and a built in damage instance shield/boost has always been strong and rewarding. Late is a no brainer but her early is a little more of a challenge.

Is ursa really that hard? I solo lanes on hard mode with him. Just get horde stick, poor man's shield and max out his slam. Level 4 AOE nuke with 5 sec CD.

Killing creeps with slam fills his horde stick. Which allows him to slam more.

These must be 2K mmr players having trouble with Ursa.

Originally posted by Vaxxvirus:

S Tier: Undeniably Best Heroes
- Templar Assassin

A Tier: Best Heroes
- Tidehunter

B Tier: Good Heroes
- Io

C Tier: Okay Heroes
- Techies

D Tier: Weaker Heroes
- Ursa
- Clockwerk

F Tier: Useless Heroes.
- Weaver
- Queen of Pain

I will update this as I get feedback from other players.

S: TA is barely a best hero. Too much sweat for effectiveness that is barely comparable to a Sven with War Fury. I see why people usually think TA is awesome, and I kinda agree with that. Shield allows her to ignore infinitely strong damage instances with ease.. though its not much, when speaking of trying to kill boss, while getting assaulted from all sides by smaller creeps, this shield goes off quickly in first 2-3 seconds. I would love to see her shield as a passive buff, that reduces incoming damage to 40%, also increasing her attack damage to like +50.

I'd move Weaver to Okay hero. Techies to a Good hero. He is a life saver, when a lane is getting uncontrollably pushed by creeps. Io to a Best hero, there is no better support. Tidehunter to a Good hero. His start is awesome, because his second skill is the best version of a poor man's shield, though overall, he is worse than any other hero who atleast has any attack modifiers.

Clockwerk would replace Weaver at Useless hero(because of how low the damage and long the cd of his third skill are).

QoP is one of the Best heroes(her 1.6 BAT makes her one of the best range heroes, somewhere near WR), almost at the same level with Lion, Pugna, Witch Doctor. She is not supposed to be played as a pure mage, but as range-attack hero with lots of magic nukes.

Undeniably awesome are also: WR and Juggernaut(just because he has this awesome healing ward).

Hi Vaxx, wanted to start by saying that these updates are fantastic, and I like the direction that you're heading in. Don't know if you're hearing a lot of positive or negative reviews, but this is great! Hope to see some fun pay-to-win features so I can support you there!

Adding War Fury + Dragon Javelin + Vlad's Cuirass made any hero able to win the game eventually before you difficulty revamp. I don't know if you interpret that as a good or bad thing. Most non-ultimates that have 2 of the following: lack aoe, cooldown >10 seconds, or a damage < ~140 are probably too weak vs. the new difficulty for wave-clear.

I think one of the best things you could add to make a few heroes more relevant are items that would give:

- INT-based scaling on spells (Ability Power)
- AoE damage on spells, preferably non-targetted
- Buffing summons based on hero statistics
- Secondary source of cooldown reduction (in addition to Octarine Core)

S-Tier: Able to win 1.14 4p hard mode without coordination.

+ Io: Nuke is amazing, long duration, 100% uptime, draws aggro from half a screen away, makes all of your carries unkillable with Tranquils + Urn of Shadows, Relocate allows you to actually kill the throne and get tower buffs even when you're losing. Dragon Javelin means he can actually scale with that + heart + AC. Would not nerf, IO is super fun to play.
+ Elder Titan: Stupidly strong spells, can hold 2 lanes by himself early with Spirit + Stomp, Aura + Earth Splitter wrecks bosses. Has bad stats/armor, but has no problem getting 6-slotted, and can jungle.
+ Magnus: Empower giving teammates cleave make it a lot more likely you survive early, now with a buffed Agh's he can give ranged teammates splash, as well. Shockwave lets you survive early (barely), and his E puts him in the same group as IO for actually killing towers and moving around the map, even if you're losing.
+ Troll: Double axes (massive damage, 0 cooldown, balanced for his 1.2 INT growth that goes out of the window with Horde Stick) means he can hold any wave until battlefury, which also gives him evasion, ridiculous BAT + MS + Armor in melee form clear waves, 2 gigantic attack speed steroids, 1 of which helps his team. Solos bosses with built-in bash.
+ Bloodseeker: Rupture is worthless damage-wise but keeps aggro on bosses. Bloodrage gives any hero sustain through early game, Blood Rite's massive AoE and pure damage make clearing waves simple, and the free sacred relic +movespeed on his Thirst are very strong.
+ Shadow Fiend: Requires a blink dagger to reliably land razes, but reliable razes keep SF alive until he gets a Dragon Javelin, at which point his necromastery's stupidly strong damage means he can hold most lanes by himself. Decimates waves with just Raze until Wolves/Golems/Treants. Can also jungle the wildwing camp at 0:30, pulling at 0:52 to get an instant level 2 to contribute to other lanes.
+ Slark: Level 2+ Dark Pact lets him solo early waves, Leap gives him an ability to quickly activate his ultimate, Essence Shift is basically stronger than Fury Swipes against normal creeps and just as good against bosses. Jump in, hit to ~10 stacks, use ult to heal, come out of ult with ~30 stacks (+180 agility) while disarming boss due to - Attack Speed. Manta illusions also get Essence Shift, not sure if this is intended. Shadow Dance means he never goes to the fountain and can quickly help any lane as needed.
+ Terrorblade: Built-in splash damage on both melee and ranged illusions is stupidly strong, sundering creeps gives him amazing sustain, and being an agility hero with illusions means stacking stats is double effective on him. Doesn't have to choose between Dragon Lance and War Fury due to zeal, 7 base armor makes him invincible against early creeps along with a Poor Man's Shield.
+ Windranger: Octarine Core + Windrun makes her invincible, Powershot allows her to clear waves and draw aggro from a screen away, Shackleshot disables entire waves because they line up. Focus Fire is nice, Dragon Lance allows her to turn all that gold from KS'ing with power-shot into late-game power.


A-Tier: Very strong waveclear + scaling, and are generally innate carries.

+ Sven: One of the only heroes that you actually nerfed in the mode. Still great, 3 AoE abilities to help your team and a massive damage steroid.
+ Omniknight: Heal keeps him very strong early with AoE, once he gets cleave + rapier he out-damages Sven with his passive 1000000% critical hammer, aura + shiva's makes him very strong against waves, ultimate is perfect for all bosses except Nerubian.
+ Centaur: Kite with Stomp + Double-Edge until you get heart, run into towers and win game. Makes game very boring for his teammates, as he always calls solo mid, never helps side-lanes, and ends the game at ~18 minutes.
+ Legion Commander: Overwhelming Odds scales against big waves until you can get cleave, has 2 heal + attack speed buffs, ultimate is very strong against bosses. Would you possible considering making her ultimate into Duel and letting it work on creeps with a lower damage bonus? Would be hilarious.
+ Axe: W giving lifesteal off of cleave damage means he can double-dip with War Fury + AC. Helix lets him contribute early and help other lanes, Call is a no-brainer and very strong armor, Cull gives him great attack speed to supplement his very good base agility growth.
+ Slardar: Crush's huge damage and low CD allow him to hold a lane with just a Stick until he can get his battlefury, and then his steroid + bash + damage amplification let him crush waves.
+ Juggernaut: Buffs to blade fury means he can clear waves until battlefury, healing ward keeps him or any other lane alive for 30 seconds, fantastic critical passive steroid + low BAT, and his ultimate got nerfed to being whatever again. Old Agh's ult was amazing (waaay to strong) but so fun to use.
+ Sniper: Shrapnel's buff gives him easy farm early, addition of Dragon Javelin means he scales into late perfectly fine. Headshot disarms later bosses, ultimate sucks but nobody uses it anyways.
+ Lanaya: Only ranged hero with innate splash attack, refraction scaling based on her damage is really good, Meld's -armor is always welcome, traps make it easier to kite but are a bit weak. Dragon Javelin really helped her, as well.
+ Ursa: Earthshock being at a constant 6 second CD and starting at 150 damage means he can hold early until battlefury, at which point his 3 other steroids allow him to carry the game. Combination of agility treads' +100 armor and his ultimate means he can solo most bosses.
+ Ember Spirit: Flame Guard + Chains gives him early AoE until he gets a Battlefury, at which point he destroys lanes. 6 Remants with a very low CD also give him fantastic burst and mobility. Scaling on Searing Chains is weird.
+ Viper: Built in multi-shot on his Q make him really strong, other passives make him hard to kill, ultimate is a "♥♥♥♥ you" button whenever he's losing. A bit boring like Vengeful to play.
+ Medusa: Scales strongly due to split shot and shield, mystic snake keeps her alive early. Stone Gaze's cooldown is a bit long but very useful because creeps never look away. Manta 2 really helped her.
+ Storm Spirit: Possibly the only strong Int hero because of the 0 cooldown and manacost on his Remnants combined with the ability to 1-shot Gnolls at level 1. Dragon Lance means he can scale later in the game, but he is a terrible sieger. Strength of remnants alone puts him here.
+ Queen of Pain: Scream of Pain and Shadow Strike both clear waves very quickly, Sonic Wave and Blink are less useful but still nice to have, 1.6 BAT means she scales as well as many strength heroes when you build right-click on her.
+ Invoker: Int hero with decent right click, all of his spells are very strong, and the change to Sun Strike means he can hold a lane by himself. Octarine + Agh's permanently disarms bosses. A blast to play, fantastic item choices and can be run in many different positions.


B-Tier: I think that all heroes should be balanced around people in here. You did a great job with these!

+ Bristleback: Holds early game with quils + passive, scales better than most heroes due to Warpath. Low cooldown balanced by his low manapool that is completely alleviated with treads + stick.
+ Tiny: Some mana/cooldown problems early, needs 1 big attack speed item after Scepter to fully come online, but built-in cleave and anti-creep passive makes him very strong.
+ Alchemist: Needs a solo lane to do well, but all of the 10,000 gold items make him able to scale until the end of the game. Buying Agh's for teammates is always fun. Most people don't level W for some reason.
+ Phantom Lancer: One of the only heroes who doesn't have to get a Battlefury because of how strong his illusions are now. Struggles very hard to hit lvl. 6, but becomes trivial to play after that point. His Rush ability is kind of bland. Doppleganger's cooldown at level 1 is very high, Spirit Lance's duration at level 1 is very low.
+ Lifestealer: Basically only here because of how strong Feast is vs. bosses. Rage and Infest are both good, with CD's a bit too high, and Open Wounds' damage aspect is great, but a bit low at early levels. Could you reduce the damage but make it constant at all levels so he can kill Gnolls?
+ Doom: Cooldown on Scorched Earth is too high to be used against waves, but he destroys bosses with his burning blade. Generally see him played as a jungler, Devour --> Midas --> Battlefury can be done in < 12 minutes, and he can get the Alpha Wolf aura to make him a carry. Only good if Jungle'd, he's C-Tier if forced to lane.
+ Dirge: Tombstone + Zombies can hold all 3 lanes and get him up to Battlefury/Radiance. Golem gives great sustain and damage amplification, and he can support teammates with heal. ♥♥♥♥♥♥ stats make him balanced. Cooldown on all spells is a little bit high. Zombies summoned by Q could move a little bit faster.
+ Drow Ranger: Nerfs to her split-shot means that she actually gets overwhelmed without proper help, but Dragon Lance + Agh's + Illusions means she fires 20-30 arrows at once, and her other spells buff her teammates. Requires a small amount of babysitting, but very, very strong lategame.
+ Gyrocopter: Average nuke strength early combined with Flak Cannon keeps him alive until Dragon Javelin, and then being an agility hero will carry him from there.
+ Naga Siren: Ensnare and Song are both generally useless, Riptide is very good early that will keep her alive until battlefury and her images make her a great tower-killer. Other 2 spells being worth leveling would make her a bit better.
+ Venomancer: Lacking innate AoE is made up for by how strong his level 1 poison sting is, killing any initial creep after ~6 seconds. Wards allow him to stall until Dragon Javelin, and then his agility stat lets him carry. Gale and Nova are both pretty weak, and caster veno's I've seen generally do pretty poorly.
+ Phantom Assassin: Removing Phantom Strike for a weaker but constant Zeal was a nerf, I think. Stifling Dagger's cooldown is too long for the low damage it deals for her to solo a lane, but her built in evasion + critical make her devastating later if she gets help early.
+ Lina: 3 great AoE abilities keep her alive early until Dragon Javelin and a bit of mana regen allow her to have Fiery Soul on constantly, at which point she carries.
+ Jakiro: Good-great scaling on spells to stay alive early, Dragon Javelin or Shiva + Int Treads + Radiance keep him relevant later on. One of the only int heroes who can siege due to his Liquid Fire
+ Keeper of the Light: Needs to take a solo lane to be useful, but can hold that lane by himself. Although ult is never leveled, gives good mobility to teammates. Blind is great, Chakra is only useful on himself generally, explosion is very good early on.
+ Techies: Landmines are strong, hero overall takes a lot of button presses to play for a pretty average-good impact.
+ Death Prophet: Solo's any boss with her Life Drain spell. Nuke damage is a bit weak (75 damage, 8 second CD), silence is useless, but Exorcism lets her siege towers.
+ Leshrac: Another int hero with great AoE that doesn't fall off quite as hard because he can Edict towers. Lightning Storm lvl. 1 might have been nerfed a bit too much.
+ Shadow Demon: Shadow Poison carries himself and team through early game, Disruption working with Dragon Lance illusions means that he scales very well. Soul Catcher is great for bosses, Purge is okay.

I'd say most of those heroes are fine as-is for your new difficulty, but these guys could use a small buff (C) or bigger buffs (D-F).

C-Tier: Were fine before the difficulty update, but now are a bit hard to reliably win with. Generally STR heroes with good scaling but weak-ish nukes, or vice-versa.

+ Beast Master: Wild Axes doing physical damage means they fall off very quickly against waves. Roar is unhelpful due to fairly high cooldown + low damage when you get it. Boar and Aura are very strong, and Necrobook remains a really fun build to go. Hawk doesn't scale at all, unless you changed that, which is a shame.
+ Brew Master: Weak AoE before Battlefury, but built-in evasion + critical are good. Ultimate is terrible and will get you killed. Thunder Clap's cooldown:damage is a bit too high, Drunken Haze's cooldown is a bit too high.
+ Dragon Knight: Breath fire is terrible until you hit lvl. 3 due to cooldown and moderate damage. Dragon Form lacks 100% uptime, meaning he has a ~20 second weak period late game regardless of whether he goes Dragon Lance or War Fury.
+ Chaos Knight: AoE Bolt is good, but damage is low. Illusions can't cleave, cooldown is high enough that he only really uses it for bosses, but they're disgusting against towers. Reality Rift will pull you away from the wave you're trying to hit. Good once he gets battle-fury, but struggles to hit that point due to his Chaos Bolt's low damage and high mana.
+ Abaddon: Aphotic Shield is very strong, but only after you get ~2 levels in it. Curse of Avernus's steroid is a little bit too weak, Death Coil's AoE buff is nice but the damage is a bit low. Borrowed Time is good.
+ Phoenix: Spirits are very strong vs. waves, but their duration is shorter than the amount of time you can keep a debuff applied since you buffed it! Egg is unkillable, saving allies is fun, Sun Ray's % is very good. Only problem is is very weak armor and that he has to hold still to use Sun Ray. Really fun to play as support.
+ Earth Spirit: Boulder is amazing (300 AoE damage on a 4 second CD,) other spells are okay and can sustain him until he gets a battle-fury, at which point he becomes extremely average due to no scaling. Magnetize is broken last time I checked, doesn't do any damage to creeps/bosses. Remnant CD could be a bit lower.
+ Sand King: Epicenter falls off very quickly, sand storm is now in a weird spot in that it disarms you. Burrowstrike + caustic are very good early, and he falls in the same category as Earth Spirit with average scaling later on.
+ Tidehunter: Gush is pretty average, but Anchor + Kraken make him an unkillable lump early that can farm into a War Fury + tank items. He's pretty average after that, Ravage's cooldown is very long and not too great vs. bosses.
+ Wraith King: Losing Devour but gaining an AoE nuke was a mixed bag. Scaling on Q is a little bit too weak, but his other 3 abilities are very strong. Needs a bit of help early, but then you send him off to kill towers because he never dies with lvl. 3 Reincarnate.
+ Vengeful Spirit: Nuke damage of Q scales very poorly, not enough to reliably clear waves if in a duo lane. 2 passive auras make her very boring to play, and her ultimate is pretty weak. Lvl 1 is a free gloves of haste, lvl 3 is a free hyperstone.
+ Luna: Can't hold a lane by herself, but has a built-in splash mechanism meaning she can just focus on stacking +stat items. Lucent Beam could use a tiny AoE. Lunar Blessing is good, but she is a very XP-starved carry; needs maxed Beam for Eclipse to be worth using, but also wants maxed Glaives for carrying and maxed Aura for free damage.
+ Bounty Hunter: Ultimate's MS boost is nice, but boots are such a good item that people generally don't want to skip it. 10% of generating a gold bag at lvl 6, which only gives each teammate +10 gold is a bit too weak; make his ult AoE, so teammates also have a chance of getting a bag? Shuriken was too strong and the nerf was good, critical is fine, Shadow Walk is useless.
+ Brood Mother: Spawn Brood Warriors + Web means she can hold a lane until Battlefury, but generally needs a little bit of help. Insatiable Hunger is fantastic sustain, E is good but not great against bosses. Very average agility hero.
+ Spectre: Needs safe-lane, no built-in AoE, ultimate lags game. Damage on Dagger is pretty awful. Can solo-hold 3 lanes of megas after an Octarine Core, but boring to play.
+ Zeus: One of the only heroes with mana problems, but also one of the only scaling spellcasters due to Static Field. All his spells are reasonable, only his Lightning Bolt needs either a tiny AoE or a scaling cooldown down from 6 to 3, like in Wraith Night.
+ Shadow Shaman: AoE on Ether Shock is good early, Shackle is average for bosses, Hex is a pretty average-good AoE disable, Wards let him push or stall once he gets some armor + hp.
+ Enchantress: Maxing Untouchable makes her build up a wave of 100-200 creeps that can't kill each other because she doesn't have AoE. Does a lot better if she can Enchant a big creep with an AoE spell, and cannot be killed if she manages to farm a heart by anything. Impetus is in a weird spot because most creeps are melee. Heal is pretty lackluster. If she can survive early, she becomes an amazing defensive hero.
+ Silencer: Curse of the Silent needs lvl. 2 to be useful, attack steroid from Glaives doesn't carry over to Dragon Lance, Last Word is single-target, and Global Silence is good but not fantastics. A less sexy version of Drow Ranger.
+ Oracle: AoE on Q is good, but needs level 2. Disarm on W is good against bosses only. Haven't ever seen E used effectively, and is out-performed by Wisp and Omniknight. False Promise is useless if winning, sucky if losing. Works best with a carry with a Battlefury, but a carry with Battlefury doesn't need you anymore. Hilarious BAT keeps him relevant.
+ Lion: Good disables and damage between Impale and Finger, has some mana problems because Draining makes him stay still and take hits. Voodoo used to be able to perma-disable bosses. Pretty average caster, needs some blink micro to be useful on Roshan waves.
+ Enigma: Pretty awful vs. normal waves, but can jungle very quickly, and Agh's Black Hole + Midnight Pulse kills any boss.
+ Pugna: Level 4 Ward is stupidly strong, but only until golems spawn. All other abilities are sort of ass. Plays as a weird support, transitioning into a weird siege hero after he gets some sustain. Wards KS a lot. Would be great if casting Ward when you already are at the limit would kill the oldest and place a new one.
+ Outhouse Demolisher: Banish duration scaling on W makes it awkward, as OD needs to get hit for 4 seconds at max level, or banish himself and lose aggro for his nuke to work. All other spells come together beautifully, but makes for a very XP-hungry hero who needs to be about lvl ~10 to be able to hold a lane by himself. Stacking INT vs. bosses is very fun.


D-Tier: Generally most of the int heroes, that have reasonable utility but no scaling, and are very experience hungry (can do well if given solo mid/solo bot, but don't offer that much in return, generally 1-2 very powerful spells against bosses only). Generally goes into Octarine + Shiva's + Radiance + Heart to survive late game, and can't push.

+ Crystal Maiden: Nova's cooldown is just a tiny bit too long and the damage low enough that she needs mid/bot XP to stay competitive with the HP scalling of the spawns. Mana cost is still really big, and Arcane Aura is a bit weak on her, but completely wasted on teammates due to Horde Stick. Frostbit is fantastic against bosses after Octarine Core, Shiva's + Ultimate will disarm most creeps due to -AS. Overall boring to play.
+ Earth Shaker: I almost never see this guy picked, and I'm not sure why. Cooldown on Fissue is a little high, but his damage scale very well thanks to +% on Enchant Totem, and stuns are useful. Has pretty strong mana issues early and has the problem of being a STR-caster so he doesn't know what to build. Fissure blocks are good, Echo can save you from being overrun, but only once.
+ Dark Seer: A fantastic early game with Ion Shell that completely evaporates by the time Wolves/Golems/Treants spawn. Vacuum has low damage, a huge CD, and low utility. Surge is nice but can't compete against a 4 second CD blink dagger. Ultimate only damages once per cast, or the DPS is too low to notice. Melee caster with terrible agility growth makes War Fury bad.
+ Kunkka: Over-reliance on Tidebringer cooldown at early levels and piss agility/armor make him a strong, but not fantastic carry. Cooldown on E is very long, Ghost Ship and Torrent are both good, but damage is a little weak. Would be nice if disable duration scaled. Cannot 1-shot Gnoll's with lvl. 1 Torrent + Tidebringer, and has to wait 12 seconds per combo.
+ Treant Protector: Good sustain for his partner in lane, but now has no innate farming mechanism (aoe) to get to his Agh's + Octarine Eyes all over the map. Boring to play. New roots clash with his high BAT.
+ Timbersaw: Great AoE, good tankiness, falls of very hard late game because Chakram disarms him. Would be perfect if he could still attack during it, and possibly reduce the manacost slightly.
+ Tusk: Goes from 160 damage/combo with a 20 second CD at lvl. 2 to an 800 damage combo on a 10 second CD at lvl 8. Punch is fun, Sigil's uptime needs to be a bit higher (30 duration vs. 50 CD). Would be perfect if his lower-level nukes were a bit stronger, or snowball did less base damage but more per ally. Walrus kick is currently useless, should have same properties as punch.
+ Pudge: Hook is only helpful vs. bosses, maybe if the damage was AoE? But then it'd be too strong at 400 damage. Flesh Heap is nice, but takes forever to build to max. I also think that the charge system might be off, I had 1000 stacks giving me +150 STR. Rot is useless if you're winning and screws you if you're losing. Dismember is good. Basically requires a support to turn into a sub-par carry.
+ Lycan: Cannot maintain Shapeshift due to high cooldown, cannot maintain Howl due to high cooldown, Feral Impulse is great but adds no AoE, wolves are TERRIBLE at all levels. Low damage, no cleave, tiny HP pool, no armor, and high damage + magic resistance were leftover from Icefrog's nerf of lycan after TI. Wolves need to be buffed to either tank or do AoE so Lycan himself can focus on the other. Regen needs to be moved from lvl 4 wolves down. Also, creeps aggro his wolves first for some reason, not sure if that can be fixed.
+ Morphling: Nerfs to waveform hurt his early game, but he can still hold a lane with waveform + stick. Adaptive strike not being AoE hurts him a bunch, Replicate not getting cleave/passive abilities sucks, Agh's not being drop-able is annoying, and his Morph isn't all that impressive due to all the massive +stat items now available.
+ Lone Druid: Something got nerfed about the bear, I'm not sure what, but it always dies to the Kobold waves now. The cooldown is WAY too long, dying by accident or losing the bear means Druid is useless for over a minute, which might as well be game. Stacking items on the hero and ignoring the bear makes him so boring to play. Bear damage is ass without points in Synergy, Rabid doesn't have full up-time unless you max it, and Bear doesn't have any HP unless you max it. EXP-starved.
+ Razor: Weak stat growth and a large focus on single-target damage means that he falls off hard. Eye of the Storm and Static Link only affecting a single target means he struggles against most waves, as Static Field's 12 second cooldown and damage reduction against melee enemies means he has trouble clearing most waves. Unstable Current is only half a skill, giving him +12% MS.
+ Weaver: Worst stat growths in the game, Shukuchi can't 1-shot gnolls and has a terrible cooldown at lower levels, Geminate Attack doesn't proc Dragon Lance, Time Lapse is useless if winning and too weak if losing. Swarm is great, but cooldown is very long. Generally a weaker Medusa.
+ Prophet: No AoE until lvl. 6, which falls off against the Treant/Golem/Wolf wave. Sprout can't target bosses for some reason, teleport is very average, Treants get eaten up early because Prophet doesn't have any AoE. Can still cliff jungle!
+ Skywrath Mage: Manacost on Mystic Flare combined with its low-ish (800) damage means he can't survive against later waves. 1.6 Scaling int on his Q make it weaker (3+ shots per creep after Wolves/Treants) combined with lack of +Int items (Aether Lens and Death Stone not giving any Int hurts him alot), and all the -magic resistance auras can only double the ~400 damage his Q deals when you have 200 int. Terrible agility means he has 0 armor. Tends to suck all the farm out of a lane early and then die with it like KotL does in pub games.
+ Bane: Can hold lanes early due to brain sap + enfeeble, nightmare will just ♥♥♥♥ over your allies if you use it on bosses, big Ogre is immune to Fiend's Grip and using it on later creep waves will kill you. Transitions from strong early game to very average Dragon Lance holding midgame.
+ Witch Doctor: Long cooldown on Cask and Maledict combined with early game mana issues for Voodoo Restoration (and carries not needing it after Vladimyr's offering late game) make him sort of weak. Death Ward doesn't scale with his attack damage, and becomes useless after Golem wave.
+ Necrolyte: Death Pulse and Sadist need 2-3 levels each to be good, damage cap on Reaper's Scythe and the fact that it's single target make it useless on bosses and creeps alike, damage cap on Heartstopper and the constant spawning of fresh waves makes him pretty weak. Generally goes Radiance Octarine Shiva's and runs in circles the entire game.
+ Dazzle: Poison Touch's damage is a bit too low to be useful, global +9 armor aura is cute but not really useful for cleraing waves early, and overshadowed by assault cuirass/shiva's late, in which case Weave is infinitely better, Shadow Wave's low heal per unit and bounces are wasted when you normally won't have more than 2 people per lane.
+ Batrider: Sticky Napalm's half damage to creeps sucks. Flamebreak has a high mana cost and needs Napalm levels to be useful. Firefly needs levels to be useful, and Batrider can't hurt towers or bosses at all. Lasso is a trap because you get into melee range of the boss who ♥♥♥♥♥ slaps you when it wears off.
+ Visage: Huge mana cost on Soul Assumption + average damage makes it hard to sustain, even with a stick. Familiars would be a lot better if they had a slightly higher base damage, Grave Chill could use 100% uptime if possible. Armor buff is nice, but not fantastic.
+ Winter Wyvern: Splint Blast is mana-hungry and fairly low damage, Ice Block is only useful vs. bosses or if you freeze yourself for a partner to clean up. Artic Burn is cute, but the cooldown means you do ~20% of a boss's max hp, and then you're done. Winter's Curse is useless with all the cleave running around.

F-Tier: Usually heroes that were added pretty early/had little tweaks, that lack a reliable wave-clear, either through damage or cooldown limitations (can't nuke down the Gnoll waves at the start in < 20 seconds or 2 spell cycles), AND scale poorly (no innate passive/100% uptime active that makes them do more damage than a creep with the same items).

+ Spirit Breaker: (Charge + Greater Bash only deals ~80 damage early, and caps at ~250 if you have max MS. Nether Strike becomes useless on ~Zombies/Spiders/Golems due to CD + low damage.)
+ Ogre Magi: Fireblast quickly becomes useless, Ignite's cooldown is just a tiny bit too long to nuke down each wave, Bloodlust's % values pale in comparison to items you buy).
+ Puck: Absolutely horrible stat growth, unchanged nuke scaling on Illusory Orb + Waning Rift give terrible waveclear + high cooldowns + high manacosts.
+ Clockwerk: Damage on cogs is negligible, considering each can only shock a single creep. Damage on battery assault is bad due to the number of creeps spawning, and rocket flare/hookshot's cooldowns are too high to be used once per wave. E is unable to clear gnolls until level 5.
+ Mirana: Ultimate makes creeps ignore you and kill your buildings, which is frustrating. Starfall's damage is far too low to be useful, and leap is a very weak steroid unless you also buy a blink dagger. Your buff to sacred arrow was very welcome, but the cooldown is still too high to use more than once per wave, and it doesn't kill gnolls reliably until lvl. 3.
+ Chen: Converted neutral creeps are generally too weak to sustain you, 400 mana cost on lvl. 4 persuasion is disgusting, cooldown on Hand of God getting nerfed to 120 makes it pretty weak for a 400-hp heal, all his other abilities are single-target. Converted ancients are ass. Would it be too strong if he could persuade Corpse Lords?
+ Huskar: Awkward sustain and lack of AoE: He needs to stay at fairly low HP to get his + attack speed, but if he's stronger than the current wave, he just ends up healing to full, and if he's too weak, he dies. Life Break damage cap should be lifted if used on creeps, would be nice if it had a bigger AoE.
+ Anti-mage: Completely useless in lane until he gets a Battle-Fury, and his slightly lower BAT doesn't do him any good when his allied carries are 2-3 items ahead of him. Has to be babied, or slowly jungle with blink + mana break. If you win with Anti-mage on your team, you would've won with any other hero in his slot. Mana Void is bad. Blink is so good, but doesn't save him.
+ Riki: Contributes nothing except smoke cloud before lvl. 6, creeps always face you so backstab is useless, blink strike has no AoE and a long cooldown. Ultimate is a worse version of Ember's Sleight of Fist, with a 1 minute CD to boot.
+ Faceless Void: 2 passive heals, a single-target bash, and a 10-second AoE stun means he has to go Bottom Lane, and will need help clearing out the first wave because he has no cleave. Stronger than anti-mage and Husk. Not sure if the new cleave on quell is enough to make up for it.
+ Clinkz: Useless Skeleton Walk, one of the few heroes with mana issues due to Strafe + Searing Arrows, total lack of AoE, bad uptime on both Strafe and Death Pact until he gets levels. Can generally jungle from fountain with arrows. ♥♥♥♥♥♥, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ early game makes it un-fun when your team carries you to mid/late game.
+ Arc Warden: 2 single-target spells with a massive mana cost and high cooldown, an AoE attack speed buff with a minute-long cooldown, and an ultimate that requires at least a Midas/Dragon Lance to be useful, and doesn't have 100% uptime. Total pain to play, you can't contribute to your teammates at all, you jungle like ass because Wraith is 150 single-target damage, and your stat growth is ♥♥♥♥. Needs to go safelane and have someone bail him out after ~3 minutes.
+ Rubick: Current pub popularity is some combination of Axe/Sven/Legion Commander, Rubick generally has nothing fun to steal. Cooldown on Telekinesis is an eternity, high mana-cost of Fade Bolt and -damage per bounce make it below average wave-clear, magic damage amp is only good if you have other int teammates. But having 5 int teammates makes your late game suck.
+ Disruptor: Glimpse has none of the utility it does in normal games, damage and cooldown of Thunder Strike are terrible, Kinetic Field's soft disable of 4 seconds isn't strong enough to save Disruptor. Creeps tending to form a line instead of a circle unless they're all killing you makes his AoE below average. Static Storm's silence aspect is generally useless, and its moderate cooldown and average damage make it "okay." Doesn't scale at all due to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ stat growth because of how strong Glimpse is supposed to be.
+ Lich: AoE damage (75 at level 1) on Nova is TERRIBLE, cooldown on level 1-2 sacrifice blows (44 seconds), Frost Armor is okay but doesn't clear waves, Chain Frost is a trap because everyone buys Agh's and it stops after 2 bounces because everyone has cleave. Does not scale.
+ Ancient Apparition: Aghanim's is worthless on him, 300/600/900 AoE damage is terrible for an ultimate, all his other spells are single-target. Low STR-growth Int hero means Dragon Javelin sucks on him.
+ Tinker: 2 missiles is not enough AoE to sustain early, all of his spells are balanced around rearm and have cooldowns >15 seconds. Aghanim's laser refracts only on heroes, so all the upgrade does is give you 2 more missiles. March becomes very weak after the second boss. Rearm is fine, but there's nothing useful for you to rearm; death stone has a 10 second CD, Shiva's has a 15 second CD, and Manta 2 isn't amazing on Tinker given his low stat growth. Reduced fountain regen also hurts a lot, as Death Stone isn't enough to sustain you.

Warlock Tier

+ Warlock: Possibly the worst hero in the game. Slowing only movespeed of enemies that don't try to dodge that has to be channeled, a single target-heal/nuke (which will never be used as a nuke), and linking 7 enemies together so your tower can KS everything blows. People like Golems, but they have 1000 HP and die instantly by the time you get them, they attack slowly, their flaming fists suck, they do 40% to buildings, they're slow, etc. etc. etc. First game I ever played was with Warlock.

Originally posted by Pory:

Hi Vaxx, wanted to start by saying that these updates are fantastic, and I like the direction that you're heading in. Don't know if you're hearing a lot of positive or negative reviews, but this is great! Hope to see some fun pay-to-win features so I can support you there!

Nye is the maker of this mode, and I joined to help at the start of January. Vaxx is just a very helpful and active player. :) As for P2W stuff, I still have to think about it, but it'll likely be game mode customization stuff.

Thanks for this exhaustive list. Super useful. I hope to get more like this from others.

Undying is definitly a top tier with his ability to wreck tower at ~3mn in the game, especially on bot lane. Tombstone allow two freeze up to 2 lanes if placed correctly. And a damage boost on golem is always nice.

Naga's song can be used to stall for high impact ultimates like Enigma's blackhole....and I think just that. Or maybe Chronosphere

There is so much happening with the hero balance right now that I think some heroes will need to be reevaluated. For example, it has gotten a LOT more dangerous being melee. I do not agree that Alchemist is one of the best heroes, I would say if you have an alchemist in your team, you lose 7/10 times.

2 Pory
Nice posts! Lots of stuff I sincerely agree, but..:
- I completely disagree on Doom statement about his "B" quality, like in case of solo mid. With Satyr's hadouken ball and hp regeneration aura+Soul ring, he is one of best solo mid heroes out there.
Cooldown on W is mostly based on the fact, that it heals you aswel.
- Trust me, buffing Undying is a very bad idea.. and so does buffing Zeus.. that Mario just asks for a nerf-to-the-face.
- I think, Drow can get her ice arrows back(but with slight splash and attack speed slow on enemies). Medusa's splitshot is total garbage, and is completely out of her "character", if I have a right to say so.
- Same as Omniknight's crit, since there are creeps who constantly spam spells, we can have the magic immunity spell back, already.
- Even being Agility hero, Gyro does not fit into game flow, being "okay" at start, then "meh" at middle stage, then "okay" in late game, but only with 2 rapiers onboard, otherwise he is total garbage.
- Stiffling dagger's AoE growth is actually doubles, triples, or quadruples the damage output, but only versus bigger waves of creeps. Since her evasion is too strong, we should have creeps with MKB style buffs.
- Death prophet's silence also reduces damage, so it cannot be this useless..
- Beast master is still can be considered as a good pick, if we speak building him into a last-stand, def aura hero, with Vladmir's cuirass+assault cuirass+his own aura+Necronomicon, will turn any def process into an everlasting.
- Abbadon is a boss hunter hero. He should be as tanky as possible, thats why his E only gives an impression of being low, but actually works just like an attack speed aura.
- Absolutely agree on ES, but ulti is not broken, it just does so little damage it's barely visible on a health meter(it just gets instantly overhealed by creep's basic hp regen).
- Tidehunter makes a perfect combo with Death prophet and\or Dragon knight, disarming bosses with their sick % damage reducing spells.
- Build Enchantress an octarine and refresher(dominator and oppressor too), keep on enchanting the biggest enemy creeps, and you'll see how easy the game can be with her around.
- Kunkka. Make him a fast rapier, Ignore multi-Daedalus ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. You can completely pass on buying BF\WF, and buy enemy attack and move speed slowing auras instead.
- Lone Druid is not supposed to be played regular Dota 2 style. His bear here is only supposed to be a "second part" damager. All the items you bought, should go to Sylabear himself. His BAT is awesome, and with all those IAS and damage buffs, he can trully shine. If you have an Alchemist to buy you an Aghs, at the late game, you can buy a HoT just for the bear, to send him to push towers, while Syla is defending base.
- Natures prophet is a pusher hero. You're supposed to build Necronomicon, desolator, and take down towers one by one, until you get your team a fortune of gold, and some damage\health buffs.
- Dazzle's Q is very nice, since it can kill(or direly damage) the whole camp of wildwings near your base, increasing your potential farm. E is nice when you have a creep spawning\taming heroes like Chen, Enchantress, Broodmother, Furion, Lycan and etc, or just buy Dominator+Oppressor helmet combo yourself, since there are sick amount of bounces.
W should be skilled as a second spell, because only at the starting phase of game, +3 to armor does REALLY matter.
- Only pick Visage if there is Drow Ranger in your team. Just a tip.
- Just buy an Armlet for Huskar, and you'll have no problems with keeping yourself low on health. Add some evasion or armor just in case of stuff going dire. Spam R as much as possible, and you'll be okay. Q is also awesome to keep that "balance" of being damaged just enough, so you wouldn't get killed with a single hit. He is absolutely awesome and powerful, because he is the only hero who has constant 2 moonshards as a skill.
- Clinkz is mostly a pusher hero in regular Dota. And you should try it out too. Pushing would provide you and your team with a reliable gold flow and attack speed buff, allowing you to "pay" for taking up a hero slot, justifying your uselessness at the starting phase of the game. Buy Dominator AND Lithe boots. Bring the beefiest lane creep with you, eat it, and push the living hell out of towers.

Read replies and updated tiers. My least educated picks are marked with (?) and should be discussed more. Also, petition for an "ask siege" thread, because he always has a fresh idea for how to play heroes I thought sucked. Though, I liked Visage. Whoops.

Personal emergency happened, I haven't been online in a while, so sorry about that.

Originally posted by Pory:

Hi Vaxx, wanted to start by saying that these updates are fantastic, and I like the direction that you're heading in. [/quote}Thanks for the kind words but I had trouble coding a myspace, I'm flattered that you thought I could do something like Diellan and Nye do lmao