Dota 2
Dota 2 Horde Mode
Pory May 3, 2016 @ 7:54pm
What makes heroes strong, and Creep AI
As of the 1.16b update, it appears that the trend here is weakening heroes that have built-in AoE or other scaling mechanics. While most of the strong heroes right now could be justifiably nerfed without making them useless, I personally feel that this type of balancing would be better offset by buffing weaker heroes (ones that are weak because of the effects of their skills, not numbers), and subsequent buffing of creeps that would create a more challenging, engaging environment.

I am somewhat concerned that the current overpicked/strong heroes are being looked at too much, at the expense of weaker caster heroes that do not have a built in AoE spell. I believe that this disparity exists primarily due to a lack of AI in creeps.

Creeps and bosses follow very simple logic: They will attack-move towards your throne, unless they encounter a hostile unit. If they have a castable spell, they will cast it immediately when an enemy hero comes into range. They tend to ball up and funnel into small chokes, and will blindly attack until their death.

Difficulty in the game-mode, then, basically boils down to two-and-a-half factors: damage, sustain, and mobility. Creeps get harder by getting more health and doing more damage per hit. Heroes attempt to win the game by last-hitting creeps fast enough so that they can get items that will allow them to get more health and do more damage per hit. I say that mobility is only half a factor because, generally, the only time it concerns you is if you're farming jungle camps, trying to help a lane that is losing, or desperately pushing when you know your team is new/bad and won't win.

This, in turn, has caused heroes with reliable AoE DAMAGE as part of their kit/role from normal DotA to become stronger, more frequently picked, and given more attention. Heroes who specialize in roaming, single target damage, and ESPECIALLY disables/utility, suffer in turn. Addition of better scaling for Bloodstone and Aether Lens has now given intelligence heroes a way of contributing late game, but it has molded their roles together into 1: do lots of AoE damage and sustain yourself, and push the super towers when you can.

The nerfs to 1.16 were virtually ALL melee carries with a built-in splash mechanism, because they're low-risk, high-reward, and they remain useful throughout the game. On the other hand, we have heroes that have weaker AoE that don't scale well with damage items that have gone unnoticed for some time now. I don't know if there's an API for pick-rate, but I would feel confident that some of these heroes might be much less popular than Sven/Drow/Axe/Troll.

- Ancient Apparition
- Enigma
- Warlock
- Ogre Magi
- Enchantress
- Nyx Assassin
- Razor
- Weaver
- Brewmaster
- Treant Protector
- Spirit Breaker
- Earth Spirit

My first instinct upon seeing the patch notes was to thank the development team for their hard work in this custom game mode, and to complain about my favorite heroes not being buffed. But I think that if there was a way to diversify bosses/spawns in a way that at least 1 person on your team would have to play a non-traditional "wave clearer," that many of these weaker heroes could be given niches that don't require buffing them to do stupid AoE damage on a short cooldown.

While not quite a "support," changing creeps to require some thinking outside the box to deal with would be a great way to add an additional element of cooperation and extra involvement to the map, as right now there is very little reason to leave your lane unless it's to kill the Rapier Ogre. Adding bosses or creeps with abilities like Winter's Curse, Dispersion, or Doom would be a simple way to shake things up, while creating enemies that run away from you, debuff, or summon would be something else good.

It would be nice if there was an early creep wave/boss archetype that heroes with no methods of debuffing struggled against, or a new mechanism added that focused very heavily on single-target CC to give those heroes a role, such as chasing down X target or moving to Y points on the map in rapid succession to give gold to your team.
Last edited by Pory; May 3, 2016 @ 8:02pm
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Showing 1-3 of 3 comments
Pory May 3, 2016 @ 7:58pm 
As a few examples:

Bosses

- "Cowardly" boss: A boss that actively avoids you on the map and summons very strong waves that give 0 gold/exp, or creating debuffs/long-ranged nukes on your team that get worse with time. Must be hunted down, or distracted by damage/stuns to interrupt its channeled abilities.
- "Punisher" boss: A boss that is difficult or impossible to defeat 1v1, possibly via rapid HP regeneration, an extremely strong single-target disable, or some kind of damage/debuff that is only removed when you have teammates closeby.
- "Dodge" boss: A boss with spells or abilities that are slow and telegraphed with warning signs, but are much too strong for the period of the game that they spawn in. Think of the Ogre Smashers from Wraith Night, from which players MUST think/move out of the way or be seriously punished by the boss's spells.
- "Reward" boss: A boss that is very weak with few attacks, but extremely mobile and must be hunted down/captured on the map in a limited period of time. Drops a number of gold bags/free experience, but takes serious commitment and a hero with some kind of built-in movement mechanism to reliably catch.
- "Splitter" boss: A boss that splits into smaller pieces or summons "helpers" that buff/heal it, preferably far enough away that your teammates will have to split up to catch all the pieces.
- "Timer" boss: A boss that punishes units for dealing damage to it too quickly. A boss with Bristleback, Dispersion, or some kind of spawning minions after taking X damage.

Creeps

- Damage Return: A periodic blademail/spiked carapace state that will reflect x% of damage taken. Could be telegraphed or otherwise easily read, punishes indiscriminate usage of AoE.
- Freezing HP Regeneration: Currently only applied by end-game Frost Apparitions, the no-recovery that is easily telegraphed/dodged would also be good to offset how strong Vlad's Cuirass is
- Spells on 2+ targets: Similar to the Centaur creep's Slam, a spell that punishes 2 heroes for being too close together. Something like Fatal Bonds, Winter's Curse, or Chain Frost comes to mind.
- Stacking Debuff: Quil Spray on death that punishes killing too quickly
- Kite: Ranged creeps with a slow/fury swipes passive that will always try to keep 500 units away from you
- Telegraphed nuke: Slow-moving nuke that does heavy damage if you don't dodge it
- Backdoor/siege: Specifically targets your towers
- Vampire: Ignores your hero and targets your Radiant Defenders, gets stronger for each one it kills
- Rage: Must be killed in a specific order, or the remaining ones get a massive buff
- Disable: Does no damage, but keeps you rooted in place, like the Wildwing Cyclone/Treant Sprout, lasts a long time if nobody helps you but can be shortened by a teammate

On a less serious note, please buff Ancient Apparition, and give us a battle pass to spend money on to support you!

Thoughts?
Last edited by Pory; May 3, 2016 @ 8:02pm
Diellan  [developer] May 3, 2016 @ 10:33pm 
I am in agreement with you in every point here. I've been balancing heroes because, frankly, it's easier. :) I would like to go through and redo the entirety of the enemy spawn list, but the size of that project has stopped me - I have a full time job and other projects, so I can't spend 8 hours a day on this. Maybe if we had a battle pass... but that's up to Valve, not me. :(

I have been slowly rewriting the spawn code to make it easier on me to do an overhaul of the entire shebang, so it'll come eventually, and what you can look forward to is precisely the stuff you've mentioned here: more varying types of creeps and abilities that will make single target lockdown/removal more important, and non-standard defenses more useful (like spell immunity).
Vaxxvirus May 4, 2016 @ 5:59pm 
I know I'd spend money on the mode to support the development, and I like almost all of these ideas.

Something not expressly said that I'd add is to add these creeps to separate waves. Add more variety, like 3 possible waves for each instance. I know it's really fun when you realize you didn't get the obnoxious Mech wave. Imagine dreading getting the creeps that ALL quill spray on death. The melee cleave meta won't be present here because your double war fury Magnus won't have any idea how he died.
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