Halo: The Master Chief Collection

Halo: The Master Chief Collection

Halo 2: Uncut
Martallar Dec 15, 2022 @ 10:30pm
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Tried to leave this as a comment just to discover the 1000 character limit so I'm making it a discussion thread instead:

I'm sure this mod has gotten a lot of praise so I guess I'll be the cynical one you ignore while fans of it get pissed about someone not just parroting them.

The purpose of an 'uncut' version of something seems to have two standards. For films it's putting scenes back in which for whatever reason were stripped out of the cinematic release--usually either producer meddling for the sake of runtime or the director deciding scenes were redundant/not good enough/extraneous/distracted from the intent of the overall thing. For games, it's stuff like what's infamous now with New Vegas where the devs just ran out of time or couldn't get something working quite right so they decided its benefit wasn't worth the cost anymore, and then fans or developers after the fact come along to try and patch up or bring back the stuff that didn't make it. This mod ultimately adheres to neither of those standards.

The stated objective of this mod seems to be attempting to bring Halo 2 closer to what the devs intended, which is murky already given the extremely troubled development 2 had which everyone already knows about these days. If that's what the developer of it genuinely believes they're doing or just advertising I can't tell--what's actually going on seems to be the developer conflating restoration with degeneration.

This mod isn't restoring anything Bungie intended about Halo 2, it's reimplementing and reverting changes it glaringly exposes as deliberate on Bungie's part because when you put them back in it makes the game demonstrably worse. You aren't making an uncut version of something because you devolve the game back to a worse state, you're not showcasing "what could have been for this game", you're just demonstrating what the game would have been if Bungie had done a worse job of understanding what did and didn't fit.

There are so many little things about this mod which are just regressions of unmodified Halo 2 to the point where I feel there's no sense going into more than generalities. I've already seen the comment that "this is not a rebalance mod" so I'm sure this is a total deaf ears thing, but you should really be able to tell you aren't faithfully reintroducing the creator's original vision when you create so much that just sucks to play on the difficulty Bungie stated is intended for Halo (heroic). So many of the encounters are worse, so many of the guns are worse to play against and it's just blindingly obvious why they were adjusted for release--because Bungie knew they sucked the other way and improved them, if not to use then at least critically to play against.

I think you have totally missed the mark on what 'uncut' Halo 2 should be. The most positive changes in this mod are all minor things, like restoring cut dialogue or little novelties like the flooded tunnel in Metropolis, and they are not at all worth the outright butchery that's been done to the encounters and sandbox balance. For all the positive things like the pistol getting a real niche there's an outnumbering quantity of negatives like the vehicles all being made horribly worse (except the Scorpion) or the most bone-headed things like Drones being used for more encounters--the reason they were so scarce in Halo 2 wasn't because Bungie had trouble putting them in, it was because they weren't fun to fight, and they are even much less so now with things like the Sniper Rifle having been weakened so much it doesn't even one-shot them to the body. Do you understand that putting these things back to the way they were isn't 'uncut' or restoration, it's putting things back to a state Bungie knew was inferior and that's why they were changed for final release?

This isn't a true uncut version, this isn't what the game could have been in the universe of 'if only'. Obviously making the real, full uncut version of Halo 2 is impossible for any independent developer--it almost did Bungie in financially, after all--but this really is a masquerade. Worse, if you want to pay this aspect any mind, it's really just against the spirit of Bungie and Halo's design. This is the same studio of "it has to be fun before it's pretty" and "we're the jaded crowd, if it doesn't entertain us in five minutes we don't care." This seems an awful lot more like throwing ♥♥♥♥ at a wall without even caring to see what sticks and giving absolutely no consideration to the why of it being cut in the first place. Whatever mentality started this project, if it was genuinely wanting to try and bring back stuff Bungie had to lop off because of time constraints, it looks like by now you have lost track of what your own stated intentions are.

This mod, frankly, sucks. It isn't giving you a glimpse at the real Halo 2 that was smothered in the crib. It's modding your game to make it worse under the guise of restoring things which nearly without exception weren't cut because Bungie ran out of time but because Bungie knew better than to put or leave them in the game the way they are in this mod. Sorry to be such a downer or whatever on your project, I'm sure you've put a lot of hard work into it, but I haven't really seen anyone give you any real feedback on it so I figured I would.
Last edited by Martallar; Dec 15, 2022 @ 10:33pm
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Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
The Vengeful 'Vadam  [developer] Dec 16, 2022 @ 10:40pm 
Rest assured that I didn't ignore this, and I appreciate your honesty. I actually look forward to the brutal comments the most.

The issue I take with most of this is that you believe I "lost my way" from the start of this mod's development when everything you see here has been the objective since day 1. This mod's inception came from the wake of an earlier mod I made that was solely restoring the Flood Juggernaut encounters that were cut from the game. I thought, "these are neat. What else is there?"

I knew going into this that a lot of these changes were going to be for better or for worse, especially the amount of Drones (I feel ya there) but regardless of what I feel about them, the whole point of this mod was to re-add everything that I could find in the game files that was cut from the final release. Sounds "uncut" to me.

Eventually, the Digsite team is going to be releasing a lot of official pre-release material (cut weapons, vehicles, equipment, what have you) that will end up being incorporated into the mod. It's still a work in progress that's eventually going to get a large polish pass.

I will say that I do agree with the Sniper being too weak, and I'm gonna revert it to vanilla in a future update. The reason it was that weak initially is because the weapon was balanced for the MP component in older builds when MP Spartans had 30 health instead of 45. This doesn't really apply to Campaign so that's my bad.

Thanks again, sorry you didn't like the mod.
Martallar Dec 17, 2022 @ 1:48am 
Well, I feel kinda bad now for being so harsh with how well you responded to the criticism. I don't mean to suggest the mod's meritless or anything that extreme.

I guess my hang-up is just not agreeing with how you're defining whether something is cut or not. It feels like at times the mod's intent is the equivalent of if you took Skyrim, came across remnants of pre-1.0 faults like a main quest character being aggravatingly bugged or an enemy type way overtuned, reverted the fixes and then called it the uncut version. Going intuitively off how the game now plays with this installed, its most noticeable changes are more often than not things which were never cut but rather their content is still completely in the game and the bad parts of it were just iterated out.

What I'd consider cut features would be things like rebuilding and putting Alpha Moon back in, or Covenant Ship, or Forerunner Tank, or the version of the game where Miranda Keyes is set up to be despised by the player because she welds a bomb to you, the real time lighting and stencil shadows. That, I think, would be something appropriate to call 'Halo 2: Uncut', but I recognise those would be some pretty lofty implementations for a whole studio to pull off, let alone a singular (I presume) developer who doesn't have infinite time to dedicate to such a vast undertaking.

My final note will be the stuff I consider genuinely cut that this mod restores is sincerely cool. It is cool to see the Shadow usable. That little section in the tunnels being flooded again is cool. It is cool to see the Scarab fight given back a little more flair. It is cool to see the gas bags on Threshold (although I seriously doubt they should be there before The Oracle since they look blatantly like flood when their reveal and containment escape doesn't fit the level's new chronology). The Flood Juggernaut making appearances is cool. I am sure if I went through the whole campaign with the mod on I would find more little things like this which are cool--it just sucks that getting to those little parts requires such a slog through bad encounters with dubiously balanced weapons which were improved--not cut--for a reason.
DivineGamer777 Dec 19, 2022 @ 4:47pm 
Watch the YouTube videos for better understanding what The Vengeful 'Vadam was going for. He got three (IN DEPTH) videos posted throughout the year. it was a fun watch and episode three he explains that in an early build where Sketch was in a pre-release live stream i think he said it was and it was likely that that footage was what the CUT delta halo mission . Anyways tho, the builds there were totally different maps even for the mission delta halo and the mission regret. in the files there was a file called "deltatemple.hsc" (the one possibly shown in live stream) he could not change and put into the mod because that would mean making an entirely different map from basically scratch off the top of his head.
Originally posted by Martallar:
Tried to leave this as a comment just to discover the 1000 character limit so I'm making it a discussion thread instead:

I'm sure this mod has gotten a lot of praise so I guess I'll be the cynical one you ignore while fans of it get pissed about someone not just parroting them.

The purpose of an 'uncut' version of something seems to have two standards. For films it's putting scenes back in which for whatever reason were stripped out of the cinematic release--usually either producer meddling for the sake of runtime or the director deciding scenes were redundant/not good enough/extraneous/distracted from the intent of the overall thing. For games, it's stuff like what's infamous now with New Vegas where the devs just ran out of time or couldn't get something working quite right so they decided its benefit wasn't worth the cost anymore, and then fans or developers after the fact come along to try and patch up or bring back the stuff that didn't make it. This mod ultimately adheres to neither of those standards.

The stated objective of this mod seems to be attempting to bring Halo 2 closer to what the devs intended, which is murky already given the extremely troubled development 2 had which everyone already knows about these days. If that's what the developer of it genuinely believes they're doing or just advertising I can't tell--what's actually going on seems to be the developer conflating restoration with degeneration.

This mod isn't restoring anything Bungie intended about Halo 2, it's reimplementing and reverting changes it glaringly exposes as deliberate on Bungie's part because when you put them back in it makes the game demonstrably worse. You aren't making an uncut version of something because you devolve the game back to a worse state, you're not showcasing "what could have been for this game", you're just demonstrating what the game would have been if Bungie had done a worse job of understanding what did and didn't fit.

There are so many little things about this mod which are just regressions of unmodified Halo 2 to the point where I feel there's no sense going into more than generalities. I've already seen the comment that "this is not a rebalance mod" so I'm sure this is a total deaf ears thing, but you should really be able to tell you aren't faithfully reintroducing the creator's original vision when you create so much that just sucks to play on the difficulty Bungie stated is intended for Halo (heroic). So many of the encounters are worse, so many of the guns are worse to play against and it's just blindingly obvious why they were adjusted for release--because Bungie knew they sucked the other way and improved them, if not to use then at least critically to play against.

I think you have totally missed the mark on what 'uncut' Halo 2 should be. The most positive changes in this mod are all minor things, like restoring cut dialogue or little novelties like the flooded tunnel in Metropolis, and they are not at all worth the outright butchery that's been done to the encounters and sandbox balance. For all the positive things like the pistol getting a real niche there's an outnumbering quantity of negatives like the vehicles all being made horribly worse (except the Scorpion) or the most bone-headed things like Drones being used for more encounters--the reason they were so scarce in Halo 2 wasn't because Bungie had trouble putting them in, it was because they weren't fun to fight, and they are even much less so now with things like the Sniper Rifle having been weakened so much it doesn't even one-shot them to the body. Do you understand that putting these things back to the way they were isn't 'uncut' or restoration, it's putting things back to a state Bungie knew was inferior and that's why they were changed for final release?

This isn't a true uncut version, this isn't what the game could have been in the universe of 'if only'. Obviously making the real, full uncut version of Halo 2 is impossible for any independent developer--it almost did Bungie in financially, after all--but this really is a masquerade. Worse, if you want to pay this aspect any mind, it's really just against the spirit of Bungie and Halo's design. This is the same studio of "it has to be fun before it's pretty" and "we're the jaded crowd, if it doesn't entertain us in five minutes we don't care." This seems an awful lot more like throwing ♥♥♥♥ at a wall without even caring to see what sticks and giving absolutely no consideration to the why of it being cut in the first place. Whatever mentality started this project, if it was genuinely wanting to try and bring back stuff Bungie had to lop off because of time constraints, it looks like by now you have lost track of what your own stated intentions are.

This mod, frankly, sucks. It isn't giving you a glimpse at the real Halo 2 that was smothered in the crib. It's modding your game to make it worse under the guise of restoring things which nearly without exception weren't cut because Bungie ran out of time but because Bungie knew better than to put or leave them in the game the way they are in this mod. Sorry to be such a downer or whatever on your project, I'm sure you've put a lot of hard work into it, but I haven't really seen anyone give you any real feedback on it so I figured I would.


Frankly I believe this comes off entirely opposite of your intended effect. You sound pissed beyond belief and I could cut the negativity this post was built on with a butter knife. I think you played and got frustrated. I understand, and if you watch his videos I think you'd get a better grasp of the accomplishments he's pulled here along with what Uncut means for this mod and likely Halo games as a whole. The weapons tuning changes are harsh and while I do agree that I'd like to see majority restored to vanilla, I also think it's important to acknowledge what's been accomplished, and you have definitely rectified some of this in your reply to the dev. The major problem with the weapons are that he tuned them to the original multiplayer standards like he said when Spartan Health was lower which was also likely before Bungie had done weapon balances for PvE encounters. That being said I also refute your viewpoint that this isn't "Halo Uncut" as for the purposes and what this mod does it will be the closest we ever get. As you've said yourself the things Bungie had to cut due to time with a whole studio aren't holistically reasonable for a single(assumed) developer working in their spare time and may include needing to release multiple game versions. However this is also vastly WIP and there continue to be new additions and tweaks made, it's not going to be perfect right out of the gate but this is where researching the project a little to get an understanding of the vision comes into effect. I definitely won't say this mod is for everyone and it certainly doesn't have a balanced sandbox as of now. The important part being "as of now." No I'm not saying to blindly accept and love the mod, and honestly if you don't like it nobody is going to have hard feelings. This mod is working to reinstate as much cut content as possible within reason, there will be several things that we will never see, and likely several iterations of Halo 2 that we don't even realize may have existed. By your logic a Halo CE uncut would be an RTS game and an FPS game. Uncut describes this mod perfectly as it will be the Uncut iteration of Halo 2 that we got at launch. I'm personally not a fan of the mod as it sits now but I like the vision for what it can be down the line so long as development continues. I hope someday you will be able to play the mod or others like it and enjoy it for what was brought back. Who knows maybe with all the tools the devs are putting into our hands you can make your own Uncut mod for us all to enjoy, either way happy gaming!
The Vengeful 'Vadam  [developer] Dec 19, 2022 @ 7:54pm 
I'm definitely gonna be looking at some of the damage changes that I think should be at least reverted back to OG. Examples I can think of atm include both Sniper Rifles, the flak cannon, and I think the Wraith mortars, as well. Other than that, a lot of weapons like the SMG, Needler, etc were actually BUFFED from what they were before. Let me know what else sticks out. I'm interested to know.
JHS Dec 24, 2022 @ 9:00am 
Will this mod have the same ending as the relased Halo 2? I wonder because a cut ending has the revelation that the Forerunners being humans
Spartans Λ Dec 24, 2022 @ 2:30pm 
I havent see my problem so i want to say that, when i am trying to play the mod it show me fatal error when it instal the map i am going to play, what i can do to play the mod?
Phantom Snake Dec 30, 2022 @ 8:56pm 
This has been a breath of fresh air, like playing the game for the first time again. Whether you like the uncut builds of things or not (I'm looking at you Brute Shot) it's amazing to see this vision realized. Outskirts and Metropolis in particular seem better uncut.

In terms of changes, the Carbine's pushback effect could be dialed down (or removed if necessary), as it stands it breaks the A.I.'s ability to fight back, especially the Hunters, who just take the rounds flinching until they drop dead, making it a cheese weapon. The Brute Shot could have it's damage increased, as it's low magazine capacity makes it a chore to use (or have its magazine capacity increased). The Sentinel Needler could use an acceleration to its projectiles, they're so slow you get mobbed and downed before you can do any significant damage, and using it against sentinels is near impossible.

The Flood Juggernaut should have its health decreased, I get it's a tank unit but it just isn't fun to pump quite that much lead and plasma at a unit. I don't know to what degree it's possible, but the Juggernaut's A.I. needs improvements to its aggression, it tends to idle too much and isn't much of a threat once you get an object in between you and it since it can't seem to understand what to do next.

That said, great job to all involved! Cant' wait to see High Charity and Great Journey!
Last edited by Phantom Snake; Dec 30, 2022 @ 9:13pm
SIGIL Jun 22, 2023 @ 2:11am 
is it possible to play this mod with anniversary graphics?
The Shark Dude Jan 27, 2024 @ 3:42pm 
Originally posted by Martallar:
Tried to leave this as a comment just to discover the 1000 character limit so I'm making it a discussion thread instead:

I'm sure this mod has gotten a lot of praise so I guess I'll be the cynical one you ignore while fans of it get pissed about someone not just parroting them.

The purpose of an 'uncut' version of something seems to have two standards. For films it's putting scenes back in which for whatever reason were stripped out of the cinematic release--usually either producer meddling for the sake of runtime or the director deciding scenes were redundant/not good enough/extraneous/distracted from the intent of the overall thing. For games, it's stuff like what's infamous now with New Vegas where the devs just ran out of time or couldn't get something working quite right so they decided its benefit wasn't worth the cost anymore, and then fans or developers after the fact come along to try and patch up or bring back the stuff that didn't make it. This mod ultimately adheres to neither of those standards.

The stated objective of this mod seems to be attempting to bring Halo 2 closer to what the devs intended, which is murky already given the extremely troubled development 2 had which everyone already knows about these days. If that's what the developer of it genuinely believes they're doing or just advertising I can't tell--what's actually going on seems to be the developer conflating restoration with degeneration.

This mod isn't restoring anything Bungie intended about Halo 2, it's reimplementing and reverting changes it glaringly exposes as deliberate on Bungie's part because when you put them back in it makes the game demonstrably worse. You aren't making an uncut version of something because you devolve the game back to a worse state, you're not showcasing "what could have been for this game", you're just demonstrating what the game would have been if Bungie had done a worse job of understanding what did and didn't fit.

There are so many little things about this mod which are just regressions of unmodified Halo 2 to the point where I feel there's no sense going into more than generalities. I've already seen the comment that "this is not a rebalance mod" so I'm sure this is a total deaf ears thing, but you should really be able to tell you aren't faithfully reintroducing the creator's original vision when you create so much that just sucks to play on the difficulty Bungie stated is intended for Halo (heroic). So many of the encounters are worse, so many of the guns are worse to play against and it's just blindingly obvious why they were adjusted for release--because Bungie knew they sucked the other way and improved them, if not to use then at least critically to play against.

I think you have totally missed the mark on what 'uncut' Halo 2 should be. The most positive changes in this mod are all minor things, like restoring cut dialogue or little novelties like the flooded tunnel in Metropolis, and they are not at all worth the outright butchery that's been done to the encounters and sandbox balance. For all the positive things like the pistol getting a real niche there's an outnumbering quantity of negatives like the vehicles all being made horribly worse (except the Scorpion) or the most bone-headed things like Drones being used for more encounters--the reason they were so scarce in Halo 2 wasn't because Bungie had trouble putting them in, it was because they weren't fun to fight, and they are even much less so now with things like the Sniper Rifle having been weakened so much it doesn't even one-shot them to the body. Do you understand that putting these things back to the way they were isn't 'uncut' or restoration, it's putting things back to a state Bungie knew was inferior and that's why they were changed for final release?

This isn't a true uncut version, this isn't what the game could have been in the universe of 'if only'. Obviously making the real, full uncut version of Halo 2 is impossible for any independent developer--it almost did Bungie in financially, after all--but this really is a masquerade. Worse, if you want to pay this aspect any mind, it's really just against the spirit of Bungie and Halo's design. This is the same studio of "it has to be fun before it's pretty" and "we're the jaded crowd, if it doesn't entertain us in five minutes we don't care." This seems an awful lot more like throwing ♥♥♥♥ at a wall without even caring to see what sticks and giving absolutely no consideration to the why of it being cut in the first place. Whatever mentality started this project, if it was genuinely wanting to try and bring back stuff Bungie had to lop off because of time constraints, it looks like by now you have lost track of what your own stated intentions are.

This mod, frankly, sucks. It isn't giving you a glimpse at the real Halo 2 that was smothered in the crib. It's modding your game to make it worse under the guise of restoring things which nearly without exception weren't cut because Bungie ran out of time but because Bungie knew better than to put or leave them in the game the way they are in this mod. Sorry to be such a downer or whatever on your project, I'm sure you've put a lot of hard work into it, but I haven't really seen anyone give you any real feedback on it so I figured I would.
Wait, the sniper rifle was nerfed in this mod? That thing was already weak as hell in the vanilla game. Okay, that's definitely understandable to be mad about. But the rest of this just seems like you're pissed off for no reason. I'm not a fan of blindly praising a mod without giving any actual criticism or having criticism worded in a way that says it shouldn't be taken into consideration, but this genuinely seems like you don't even know what you are talking about.
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