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RimWorld >  Workshop > Oskar Potocki's Workshop > Vanilla Psycasts Expanded > Discussions
Vanilla Psycasts Expanded
Description Discussions191 Comments4323 Change Notes
ScoSteSal Aug 26, 2022 @ 2:48pm
2 perspectives on the mod's balance and its vision/purpose
It seems to me that a significant minority of commenters (group A) are emphatically against nerfing most things and often also dislike existing balancing mechanics like requiring a level-up point just to unlock a tree. I realize that group A has a valid perspective- it is a cool vision to have a colony focused heavily on RP and crazy-powerful casters (including that its economy is driven more by psycasts than by the vanilla mechanics). Also, if they're sufficiently RP-focused, they might not suffer a temptation to maximize the most broken combat psycasts and reliably invalidate almost all raids with 1-2 pawns.
I'm supportive of additional config options being added to cater to group A, e.g. letting a player decide whether trees need to be unlocked with a level-up point.

My personal preferences and temperament, unfortunately, are rather different from group A. It seems to me that there's another significant minority of commenters (group B) who express frustration with the fraction of the vanilla game's mechanics that are rendered obsolete/irrelevant by certain psycasts (including how some of them can trivialize the process of acquiring food and wealth, or effectively eliminate all risk from things like hunting or raids with effort from just 1-2 pawns).
Also, I suspect that there's also overlap between those people and the ones who're put off by how drastically the value/power-level of psytrainers has skyrocketed (since they unlock a tree in addition to granting an ability, 2 whole level-up points) while their prevalence and cost hasn't significantly changed. I think it's almost always much lower than psylink neuroformers, right?

It's pretty obvious trying to make the base balancing of the game satisfy both groups is impossible. However, I think the mod could make much happier (not just satisfy) a markedly larger group of people overall if it lets people opt into one style of play or the other (whether with a bunch of config options in the main mod or with a patch mod that nerfs/constrains a bunch of things).

I realize this would be a fair bit of effort for the sake of only a minority of the mod's player-base. However, I'm quite excited about the potential of this mod, and I'd be willing to pay a $200 commission (given some detailed negotiation beforehand) to at least subsidize the cost of such development.
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Showing 1-11 of 11 comments
Latex Santa Aug 27, 2022 @ 12:32am 
Balance in a single player game should be at the hands of the player themselves. If they get burned out on overusing overpowered mechanics to trivialize entire game systems, then that is their problem for not resisting temptation. Instead of nerfing, add more mod options, allowing the individual to customize the mod to their liking.

One-size-fits-all solutions end up making everyone slightly dissatisfied, instead of everyone satisfied. Let us decide how we play with the tools you give us, while giving us the ability to tweak the variables to our own preferred optimum.
#1
ScoSteSal Sep 2, 2022 @ 10:08am 
@Latex_Santa so... we're agreed that the mod would be even better with more configurability?

@legodude17 / @OscarPotocki Do you have a policy against taking commissions for specific additions to a given VE mod?

I think I could probably make a decently-implemented balance patch mod for group B eventually*, but it seems to me like you (who actually developed it) could make such a patch mod (or add config options to the main mod) much more easily and effectively.

*after doing some reading about more advanced modding and digging through the files for this mod for ages
#2
Latex Santa Sep 2, 2022 @ 11:20am 
@ScoSteSal I heartily dislike nerfing things, but we are in agreement about the individual player being able to configure their own experience.
#3
Sandermatt Sep 6, 2022 @ 1:03pm 
I am definitely with ScoSteSal on this one. I would like to see a powerlevel closer in line with other vanilla expanded mods by default.

I want to use brainpower to think about what kind of solution there could be to overcome the obstacles of the game, not having a lot of solutions available and limiting myself to not use the obvious ones.
#4
Peaceful Panda Sep 13, 2022 @ 5:15pm 
I don't mind balance but it's hard to do with a mod like this. Psycasts were already super strong in vanilla, enabling 1-2 pawns to wreak absolute havoc, and trivializing certain parts of the game. Rimworld has always been on an honor system, especially when it comes to mods.

One way to balance things would be to create psycaster specific threats. Events that render powers useless could cripple a colony that relies on them too heavily. Basically, make it a risk to put all your eggs in one basket.
Last edited by Peaceful Panda; Sep 13, 2022 @ 5:18pm
#5
legodude17  [developer] Sep 16, 2022 @ 7:23pm 
@ScoSteSal While I'm rather busy at the moment, I should have time later to work on something like this. Please message me on discord at legodude17#1717 so we can discuss specifics.
#6
illAligned Sep 24, 2022 @ 9:32pm 
Gonna throw in my two cents on this.

Part of the reason why the mod feels unbalanced/not in line with the vanilla game is that in vanilla, psykers are a commitment of time and resources. It takes a LOT of time to get to lvl 6 through the empire, even for just one pawn. For tribals it's easier, but it still requires quite a bit of time investment to grow the Anima grass, as you can't have everyone meditating all day.
However, with the mechanic of meditation XP in place, it's VERY easy to get everyone the 8 Honor or 20 Anima Grass in order to gain Psylink, and then level them up through XP.
A possible solution: Separate levels gained through Psylink Neuroformers/Anima Grass (I'll call these "Real levels,") and levels gained through meditation XP (I'll call these "XP levels.")
Each Real level should grant an XP level and some stat buffs, and XP levels should grant upgrade points. Then, limit XP levels based on the amount of Real levels, with 6 Real levels allowing for unlimited further XP levels. And tribals past 6 Real levels should be able to level up through an increased amount of Anima Grass.
#7
Latex Santa Sep 25, 2022 @ 12:09am 
Originally posted by illAligned:
Gonna throw in my two cents on this.

Part of the reason why the mod feels unbalanced/not in line with the vanilla game is that in vanilla, psykers are a commitment of time and resources. It takes a LOT of time to get to lvl 6 through the empire, even for just one pawn. For tribals it's easier, but it still requires quite a bit of time investment to grow the Anima grass, as you can't have everyone meditating all day.
However, with the mechanic of meditation XP in place, it's VERY easy to get everyone the 8 Honor or 20 Anima Grass in order to gain Psylink, and then level them up through XP.
A possible solution: Separate levels gained through Psylink Neuroformers/Anima Grass (I'll call these "Real levels,") and levels gained through meditation XP (I'll call these "XP levels.")
Each Real level should grant an XP level and some stat buffs, and XP levels should grant upgrade points. Then, limit XP levels based on the amount of Real levels, with 6 Real levels allowing for unlimited further XP levels. And tribals past 6 Real levels should be able to level up through an increased amount of Anima Grass.

As long as this mod change comes in the form of mod options which you can flick on or off, I agree. If you would like to impose this change on other players which like the mod as-is, FORGET IT.
#8
illAligned Sep 25, 2022 @ 9:19am 
Originally posted by Latex Santa:
Originally posted by illAligned:
Gonna throw in my two cents on this.

Part of the reason why the mod feels unbalanced/not in line with the vanilla game is that in vanilla, psykers are a commitment of time and resources. It takes a LOT of time to get to lvl 6 through the empire, even for just one pawn. For tribals it's easier, but it still requires quite a bit of time investment to grow the Anima grass, as you can't have everyone meditating all day.
However, with the mechanic of meditation XP in place, it's VERY easy to get everyone the 8 Honor or 20 Anima Grass in order to gain Psylink, and then level them up through XP.
A possible solution: Separate levels gained through Psylink Neuroformers/Anima Grass (I'll call these "Real levels,") and levels gained through meditation XP (I'll call these "XP levels.")
Each Real level should grant an XP level and some stat buffs, and XP levels should grant upgrade points. Then, limit XP levels based on the amount of Real levels, with 6 Real levels allowing for unlimited further XP levels. And tribals past 6 Real levels should be able to level up through an increased amount of Anima Grass.

As long as this mod change comes in the form of mod options which you can flick on or off, I agree. If you would like to impose this change on other players which like the mod as-is, FORGET IT.
Do I look like the mod author? I was just putting in my thoughts on the issue.
#9
Cylland Dec 15, 2022 @ 6:35am 
One thing that would improve gratly would be to make all cooldowns and heat gains ajustable in the settings, that way the player could lock the more powerfull psycasts behind a huge cooldown... or just make it spammable and break everything witch would be their choice.
#10
legodude17  [developer] Dec 15, 2022 @ 1:44pm 
Originally posted by Cylland:
One thing that would improve gratly would be to make all cooldowns and heat gains ajustable in the settings, that way the player could lock the more powerfull psycasts behind a huge cooldown... or just make it spammable and break everything witch would be their choice.
You could very easily make an xml patch to change either of those things.
#11
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