I've repeated myself several times in the comments in two languages but I guess I'll do it once more here.

First: why are you so hung up on Rus vs Kievan Rus? They refer to one and the same realm, but the latter adds clarity in terms of time period, as well as for convenience as we call the people the Rus as well, so might as well make it easy to differentiate the realm's territory and the people.

Second: Rus/Kievan Rus makes far more sense than Russia and Russians from the perspective of differentiating from the post-medieval Muscovite and Tsarist Russias, as well of course modern Russia. It makes as much sense to call the Rus Russian as it does calling the Ostrogoths or Lombards Italian, or the Franks French, or the Visigoths Spanish. There is a very distinct difference in terms of historical period, culture and language.

Third: Nobody in the medieval world called themselves Roman, other than the Byzantines, while the Pope crowned Charlemagne, Otto and their successors as "Emperor of the Romans", it was no more than an honorary title, while the people of the Byzantine Empire called themselves "Rhomaioi" (Greek for "Roman") throughout the Empire's lifetime and even long after the fall of Constantinople. You can't say the same about the Germans in the HRE, who didn't even so much as identify as German (instead preferring local identities such as Bavarian or Saxon), let alone Roman. So your point about not being able to call the Byzantine Empire, Roman, is moot. It is most accurate to call it the Eastern Roman Empire, as it is a direct continuation from Diocletian and Constantine's times, and the medieval people of the ERE as Greco-Romans.

Finally, the trident. Let's begin with some basic medieval history: the idea of a nation-state was a very fuzzy if not non-existent idea in the Middle Ages, similarly, things like national flags or anthems simply did not exist, there was no such thing a single CoA associated with a single realm, as is depicted in the game, so perfect historical accuracy is already out the window if you want to be pedantic on that end. Keeping that in mind, how on earth do we then choose a single CoA to represent a medieval realm? Looking at what the CK3 devs did with the Byzantine CoA, they just used a Palailogos coat of arms/banner that didn't exist before the 14th century, just over a hundred years before the fall of Constantinople. Taking this as precedent then, it is logical to assume that any coat of arms directly associated with a ruler/rulers of the realm, representing said realm, is fair play. Tell me then, what Coat of Arms is more appropriate than the one that is most commonly found on coins and was the symbol of the Rurikid rulers, the Rurikid trident. If you want to see such coins, just use a brain cell for once in your life and use Google or something:
https://www.coinshome.net/en/coin_definition-1_Srebrennik-Silver-Kievan_Rus_(862_1240)-NsPBwcI0hgsAAAEsskfD8Dxk.htm
https://www.lydialithos.org/en/the-first-coins-in-the-territory-of-rus-9th-11th-century/

So having established a precedent in-game, as well as historical factors, it makes sense to use a Rurikid trident, after all, the earliest Rurikid trident is already the CoA of the Rurikid dynasty in-game. So which trident do we use for the Empire-tier title? Well I don't see any reason not to use the trident of the ruler who is considered the greatest Rus monarch and oversaw the Kievan Rus' borders reach their greatest extent, which coincide with the in-game de jure borders, Vladimir the Great. But what colours do we use? I would have liked to use the pan-slavic white-red-blue scheme but there are only two elements in the CoA. Oh hey, the Rurikid dynasty CoA uses blue and yellow, might as well keep it consistent and use that colour scheme. It's also a nice reference to the Swedish colour scheme as that's the homeland of the Varangian ancestors of the Rus monarchs. I used the same line of thinking for the kingdom-tier title's CoA. A historical ruler's symbol is the most appropriate Coat of Arms for a title in this game, simple as.

It is worth noting that just because the modern state of Ukraine appropriated Rurikid symbolism, and even the name of one of the monetary units of the Kievan Rus for their national currency, doesn't change history. All three East Slavic states, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, equally claim to be descendant states of the Kievan Rus. It is disingenuous to the other two if we were to frame history from the perspective of one. That is why I made sure to NOT use the same trident use in the modern Ukrainian governmental coat of arms. The Ukrainian trident and Vladimir the Great's trident, while very similar, are indeed distinct. I used the historical Vladimir the Great trident. As for the colours coinciding, go write a formal letter of complaint to Paradox for using the same colour scheme for the Rurikid Dynasty CoA in-game. I just want consistency.

As a final note: I don't have a care in the world about modern nationalism or political stuff, I'm Irish for crying out loud, I don't have any reason to side one way or another because of modern-day circumstances. But I enjoy history, and hate seeing it falsely revised, be it by the British with my country's history, or the Russians with Belorussian and Ukrainian history, or the CCP with Chinese history.

TL;DR: It's a game mod, not a political statement, nor a historical document. Before making assumptions about my intentions, maybe make sure you even know what you're talking about first. Education is sacred.

cope and seethe

Originally posted by Zugidor:

It makes as much sense to call the Rus Russian as it does calling the Ostrogoths or Lombards Italian, or the Franks French, or the Visigoths Spanish. There is a very distinct difference in terms of historical period, culture and language.

Very, very minor nitpick, but calling Rus Russian does stand as it is the same term but with a suffix attached, despite the different implications. It can be weird but it would be no different than if someone where to call it Russer or Russite.

It is also logical to call them like that unlike with the Visigoths and the Spanish since such things are already done with other groups. The Han dynasty and the Ming dynasty are both Chinese or, a more topical example, ancient, medieval (and modern for that matter) Greeks are all ''Greeks''.

go back to gulag, урус

Originally posted by Zugidor:

I've repeated myself several times in the comments in two languages but I guess I'll do it once more here.

First: why are you so hung up on Rus vs Kievan Rus? They refer to one and the same realm, but the latter adds clarity in terms of time period, as well as for convenience as we call the people the Rus as well, so might as well make it easy to differentiate the realm's territory and the people.

Second: Rus/Kievan Rus makes far more sense than Russia and Russians from the perspective of differentiating from the post-medieval Muscovite and Tsarist Russias, as well of course modern Russia. It makes as much sense to call the Rus Russian as it does calling the Ostrogoths or Lombards Italian, or the Franks French, or the Visigoths Spanish. There is a very distinct difference in terms of historical period, culture and language.

Third: Nobody in the medieval world called themselves Roman, other than the Byzantines, while the Pope crowned Charlemagne, Otto and their successors as "Emperor of the Romans", it was no more than an honorary title, while the people of the Byzantine Empire called themselves "Rhomaioi" (Greek for "Roman") throughout the Empire's lifetime and even long after the fall of Constantinople. You can't say the same about the Germans in the HRE, who didn't even so much as identify as German (instead preferring local identities such as Bavarian or Saxon), let alone Roman. So your point about not being able to call the Byzantine Empire, Roman, is moot. It is most accurate to call it the Eastern Roman Empire, as it is a direct continuation from Diocletian and Constantine's times, and the medieval people of the ERE as Greco-Romans.

Finally, the trident. Let's begin with some basic medieval history: the idea of a nation-state was a very fuzzy if not non-existent idea in the Middle Ages, similarly, things like national flags or anthems simply did not exist, there was no such thing a single CoA associated with a single realm, as is depicted in the game, so perfect historical accuracy is already out the window if you want to be pedantic on that end. Keeping that in mind, how on earth do we then choose a single CoA to represent a medieval realm? Looking at what the CK3 devs did with the Byzantine CoA, they just used a Palailogos coat of arms/banner that didn't exist before the 14th century, just over a hundred years before the fall of Constantinople. Taking this as precedent then, it is logical to assume that any coat of arms directly associated with a ruler/rulers of the realm, representing said realm, is fair play. Tell me then, what Coat of Arms is more appropriate than the one that is most commonly found on coins and was the symbol of the Rurikid rulers, the Rurikid trident. If you want to see such coins, just use a brain cell for once in your life and use Google or something:
https://www.coinshome.net/en/coin_definition-1_Srebrennik-Silver-Kievan_Rus_(862_1240)-NsPBwcI0hgsAAAEsskfD8Dxk.htm
https://www.lydialithos.org/en/the-first-coins-in-the-territory-of-rus-9th-11th-century/

So having established a precedent in-game, as well as historical factors, it makes sense to use a Rurikid trident, after all, the earliest Rurikid trident is already the CoA of the Rurikid dynasty in-game. So which trident do we use for the Empire-tier title? Well I don't see any reason not to use the trident of the ruler who is considered the greatest Rus monarch and oversaw the Kievan Rus' borders reach their greatest extent, which coincide with the in-game de jure borders, Vladimir the Great. But what colours do we use? I would have liked to use the pan-slavic white-red-blue scheme but there are only two elements in the CoA. Oh hey, the Rurikid dynasty CoA uses blue and yellow, might as well keep it consistent and use that colour scheme. It's also a nice reference to the Swedish colour scheme as that's the homeland of the Varangian ancestors of the Rus monarchs. I used the same line of thinking for the kingdom-tier title's CoA. A historical ruler's symbol is the most appropriate Coat of Arms for a title in this game, simple as.

It is worth noting that just because the modern state of Ukraine appropriated Rurikid symbolism, and even the name of one of the monetary units of the Kievan Rus for their national currency, doesn't change history. All three East Slavic states, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, equally claim to be descendant states of the Kievan Rus. It is disingenuous to the other two if we were to frame history from the perspective of one. That is why I made sure to NOT use the same trident use in the modern Ukrainian governmental coat of arms. The Ukrainian trident and Vladimir the Great's trident, while very similar, are indeed distinct. I used the historical Vladimir the Great trident. As for the colours coinciding, go write a formal letter of complaint to Paradox for using the same colour scheme for the Rurikid Dynasty CoA in-game. I just want consistency.

As a final note: I don't have a care in the world about modern nationalism or political stuff, I'm Irish for crying out loud, I don't have any reason to side one way or another because of modern-day circumstances. But I enjoy history, and hate seeing it falsely revised, be it by the British with my country's history, or the Russians with Belorussian and Ukrainian history, or the CCP with Chinese history.

TL;DR: It's a game mod, not a political statement, nor a historical document. Before making assumptions about my intentions, maybe make sure you even know what you're talking about first. Education is sacred.

Yes, thank you, finally not a biased Ukranian! :D

I hate how Ukraine claims that they're the only real decendants of Kievskaya Rus', stealing our history. Thank you!