Doesn't matter, historically most of the world was turned to secularism within the past hundred years. You can try and turn a country into a theocracy and wage a crusade/jihad/religious war and convert others, but most of the world is secular now. It would be silly not to have them be secular.

Originally posted by Dudeski:

but EU4 has other means to represent that rather than tearing out a very core element of gameplay.

If these other means are just as or even more effective then the current system, Qwerty definitely want to hear about it.

Though I strongly doubt what you would propose as an alternative would be just as effective.

Originally posted by Evan054:

Doesn't matter, historically most of the world was turned to secularism within the past hundred years.

So there are no religious caste system in US and in Europe? No pecking order that places some religions at the top and some at the bottom?

Originally posted by Evan054:

can try and turn a country into a theocracy and wage a crusade/jihad/religious war and convert others

Why theocracy? Are they the only ones that spread religious ideology? Since when?

I also recall George Bush invoking Jesus and God a lot when starting his Iraq war, pretty sure that seemed a little "crusady" to the muslim world.

I think you are trying to say religion has less power, and YES i agree but trying to say it has NO political power and NO role in global conflicts is just wrong. "Secular" countries are still biased by the religious culture that was established previously.

Originally posted by Evan054:

If these other means are just as or even more effective then the current system, Qwerty definitely want to hear about it.

Though I strongly doubt what you would propose as an alternative would be just as effective.

A decision/event that increases tolerances at the cost missionary strength and maybe army moral but preserves your religion, create a penalty for countries that don't take the decision based on the amount of countries that do. The penalty can be an increased revolt risk and trade income reduction. This gives you your secularism while preserving all existing content AND creating a dynamic peer pressure system for governments to liberalize their views towards religion, and i am pretty sure he'll think of something better, I am just showing you that there are better alternatives than what we have.

There's always the option to abandon secularism if you don't like it. The main reason it was added is that it would otherwise be very hard to define the state religions of some countries. USA is also not a very good example of a secular country, as its population is very religious compared to most European countries. I live in Finland, which is one of the least religious countries in the world and I can tell that religion has absolutely no meaning in politics. Then there are countries like Czech Republic and Estonia, where majority of the population are atheists. It would be quite weird to assign a state religion to those countries. Even in the more religious countries like the US, the government is officially secular and doesn't favor any religion over another. The minor differences there are in real life are not so significant that they would need to be represented in the mod.

Originally posted by qweytr:

There's always the option to abandon secularism if you don't like it. The main reason it was added is that it would otherwise be very hard to define the state religions of some countries. USA is also not a very good example of a secular country, as its population is very religious compared to most European countries. I live in Finland, which is one of the least religious countries in the world and I can tell that religion has absolutely no meaning in politics. Then there are countries like Czech Republic and Estonia, where majority of the population are atheists. It would be quite weird to assign a state religion to those countries. Even in the more religious countries like the US, the government is officially secular and doesn't favor any religion over another. The minor differences there are in real life are not so significant that they would need to be represented in the mod.

Wouldn't making atheism as a religion remedy all that and create a more representative outlook of the world. Scandinavian/Finno-Ugric countries aside, some countries in the EU still have a damn strong religious lobby. Considering the insanely good job you've done with chalcedonium spreading it is weird that you choose to opt out with secularism and just remove religion from the equation completely. Perhaps my view of this is biased because I've lived and worked in US for so long, but it sure as hell seemed like there was religious tension brewing in England after Charlie Hebdo.

Maybe it's the agnostic in me. but lack of religious fundamentalists and atheists in this mod is just upsetting lol

Originally posted by Dudeski:

Originally posted by qweytr:

There's always the option to abandon secularism if you don't like it. The main reason it was added is that it would otherwise be very hard to define the state religions of some countries. USA is also not a very good example of a secular country, as its population is very religious compared to most European countries. I live in Finland, which is one of the least religious countries in the world and I can tell that religion has absolutely no meaning in politics. Then there are countries like Czech Republic and Estonia, where majority of the population are atheists. It would be quite weird to assign a state religion to those countries. Even in the more religious countries like the US, the government is officially secular and doesn't favor any religion over another. The minor differences there are in real life are not so significant that they would need to be represented in the mod.

Wouldn't making atheism as a religion remedy all that and create a more representative outlook of the world. Scandinavian/Finno-Ugric countries aside, some countries in the EU still have a damn strong religious lobby. Considering the insanely good job you've done with chalcedonium spreading it is weird that you choose to opt out with secularism and just remove religion from the equation completely. Perhaps my view of this is biased because I've lived and worked in US for so long, but it sure as hell seemed like there was religious tension brewing in England after Charlie Hebdo.

Maybe it's the agnostic in me. but lack of religious fundamentalists and atheists in this mod is just upsetting lol

Adding atheism wouldn't really work either, as there's no religious tension between theists and atheists. And the irreligious countries are not the only ones where a state religion would be hard to define. In some countries like Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are about 50% Christians and 50% Muslims and the government tolerates them both equally. It would make no sense to make it either Muslim or Christian. And even though there are always some intolerant people, you play as the country and its government, which in most cases doesn't discriminate based on religion.

As qweytr said, state religion is based on the government in the modern times. Most world countries are secular (as per their political, constitutional systems), so it doesn't matter if the populace is 80% or 10% religious, it's still secular. There are no actual secular provinces, the provinces still have religions, as it should be.

Maybe only adding modern era religious events would be nice, but state religion should be secular for most world countries, because it is accurate. State religion does not represent majority religion, you can see the religion map for that.

Originally posted by Ricox is Innocent:

As qweytr said, state religion is based on the government in the modern times. Most world countries are secular (as per their political, constitutional systems), so it doesn't matter if the populace is 80% or 10% religious, it's still secular. There are no actual secular provinces, the provinces still have religions, as it should be.

Maybe only adding modern era religious events would be nice, but state religion should be secular for most world countries, because it is accurate. State religion does not represent majority religion, you can see the religion map for that.

if you remove formal soviet republics the number of "secular" Muslim states could be count on one hand and are primarily in sub-Saharan Africa where secularism could be linked to colonial governments or dictatorships. When USA passes a law that bans the non existent sharia law in US and Slovenia states that it will only accept Christian refugees they stop being secular, that is blatant favoritism based on religious preferences of nations not individuals. Israel would pretty much qualify for a theocratic republic considering it bans non Jewish parties from running in elections. I could find dozens of these overt examples but the number of the less visible ones in forms of alliances and advantageous trade deals outnumbers those by a factor of 10. Secularism can be llargely a façade as parties in numerous secular nations still have the us vs them mentality when it comes to religion.

Still I am not able to come up with a better alternative to what is currently in use because of things qweytr mentioned, but perhaps it will come to me later on.

this is pointless some people just dislike religion defining their country. you sound like some biased religous person who is mad because some people think religion shouldnt define them and their country. and adding atheism to the religion panel instead?!?!?!? do u know what atheism is its the "Lack of belief" so its not a religion.

I like secularism, my only beef with it is that you can't change cultures. Not a fan of that bit. Otherwise, I like the Secularism "religion", but I do like the idea of atheism being a religion. In the US at least, there is quite some tension between religious and non-religious factions. Mostly the hardline anti-gay, anti-abortion, (usually self-identified) Christian Americans and the actual Christians and non-theists.

I just feel there should be Atheism in it, to reflect the shrinking role of religion in people's lives. Might also be nice to convert cultures again lol

Originally posted by Firesoul:

Originally posted by prbeeney:

I like secularism, my only beef with it is that you can't change cultures. Not a fan of that bit. Otherwise, I like the Secularism "religion", but I do like the idea of atheism being a religion. In the US at least, there is quite some tension between religious and non-religious factions. Mostly the hardline anti-gay, anti-abortion, (usually self-identified) Christian Americans and the actual Christians and non-theists.

I just feel there should be Atheism in it, to reflect the shrinking role of religion in people's lives. Might also be nice to convert cultures again lol

See change logs to the mod and play the game before making comments about what features are and are not present, kindly.

You could just say how I'm mistaken and not make assumptions. I have played the game, but I start from the beginning end of the timeline and have yet to actually get to secularism. Instead of being passive-aggressive or condescending, you could have simply corrected me. As far as all information I have indicates, you cannot change the culture if you are a secular country. The rest was merely my two cents.

This has been a debate a lot of times. I will once again give my ultimate solution:

Irreligious "religion": a state decision where it's claimed that the religion has no power in politics, even though a religion clearly has.
Uses the mechanics of Tengri (so can have a sincretic faith)
Bonuses:
+5 tolerance of heretics
+5 tolerance of heathtens
-100% missionary strength

This is a medium point between confesional and secular, as you can still get events from your sub religion.
Implementing irreligious state should also be difficult in most places (cause unrest from the primary religion). On the other hand only irreligious states should be able to adopt secularism, and while this should be a tad easier, there's always a high chance to return to irreligious (events)

Originally posted by Paillan:

This has been a debate a lot of times. I will once again give my ultimate solution:

Irreligious "religion": a state decision where it's claimed that the religion has no power in politics, even though a religion clearly has.
Uses the mechanics of Tengri (so can have a sincretic faith)
Bonuses:
+5 tolerance of heretics
+5 tolerance of heathtens
-100% missionary strength

This is a medium point between confesional and secular, as you can still get events from your sub religion.
Implementing irreligious state should also be difficult in most places (cause unrest from the primary religion). On the other hand only irreligious states should be able to adopt secularism, and while this should be a tad easier, there's always a high chance to return to irreligious (events)

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/atheism?s=t
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state

It won't let me abandon it

Originally posted by Whiteeagle4958:

It won't let me abandon it

Thread necrophilia much? Check decisions

Originally posted by qweytr:

Adding atheism wouldn't really work either, as there's no religious tension between theists and atheists.

I'm gonna stop you right there and call that geopolitical bias. In Western Europe and much of Northern Americas, atheists and faithful have clashed pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hard on a number of issues, including moral education, cultural homogeneity/migrant integration, moral issues (for example gay marriage and abortion; I seem to recall a number of people going postal about the both of them in the U.S. alone) and religious stratificationism or exceptionalism (in an open society, which religions should be accepted or not: mainly aimed at putting muslims and non-universal religious sects down the pyramid).
On the point of making religion a tad bit more important as lobbies than as of real political powers... maybe implanting religious (and I don't mean clergy, but something akin to the dhimmi estate the muslims have) estates for government that still allow them?