The custodes spear doesnt take ammo and wont fire the bolter

First of all thank you so much for making this mod. And thank you even more for making it CE-compatible. I have no knowledge of programming or modding and you have done a great job with this mod. You rock!

That being said, I have some feedback for you:

I think that ammunition is too expensive to merit using it over the "normal" CE-Guns.

For comparison (all values are damage/sharp penetration/blunt penetration unless otherwise stated):
7,62x51mm NATO FMJ (20/7/66) and 7,62x54R FMJ (20/7/67) are two widespread calibres you have access to when you have researched the Warhammer-Guns. This ammo is produced for 26 and 28 steel, producing 500 rounds of each. Two example guns using them would be the FN FAL (55 steel, 5 components, 10 wood) and the PKM (80 steel, 6 components, 10 wood).

Autogun rounds (7/8/42) and Las cartridges (10/12/28) (Imperial versions) are two widespread calibres in your mod. The Autogun rounds cost 5 plasteel, 5 components to produce 90 rounds, the Las cartridge cost 3 plasteel, 3 components to produce 180 shots. Two example guns are the Autogun (I) costing 75 steel, 10 plasteel, 2 components and the Mars Pattern Lasrifle costing 75 wood, 25 steel, 30 plasteel, 4 components

I get that these are high-tech weapons, at least compared to the CE-Guns, but considering the cost of each shot I don't think there's much incentive using your weapons now other than role-play. The higher penetration is no trade-off for the high price in my mind, since AP rounds cost the same and have a penetration of 14 and damage of 12 while costing the same amount of steel.

That is not to say that ammo can't cost any components, plasteel, uranium or promethium, but in CE those are reserved for special ammo like AP-I, Sabot or EMP and you get the same amount of shots as with FMJ, AP or HP.

In combat a bad or even mediocre shooter can use an entire magazine to kill an enemy, and with the number of enemies increasing in the mid- to late-game, the cost of using Warhammer guns just don't outweigh the benefits. You can assemble components from steel, yes, but that requires spacer-tech and/or mods and by then heavy guns from CE are still the better option regarding cost-benefit. Components and plasteel can be hard to obtain depending on where you start or how often traders come by and are used for a lot of useful stuff, like prosthetics, repairs and production facilities that should take priority over ammo.

My suggestion would be to reduce at least the cost of Autogun rounds to just steel, around 30-40, and increase the amount produced to more than three magazines worth. Lorewise, this ammo is not really different from what we have now so it should have similar requirements using CE as an example. The cost for the Autogun is ok in my opinion as it's similar to the comparable FN FAL and if you reach it in the research you definitely have some plasteel and components to spare. But as it is now, the ammo is more expensive than the gun after two or three raids, which should never be the case from a pure economical perspective.

The Lasgun is a bit more difficult tech-wise, but I still don't think you should need 3 components for 180 shots. By M40 literally every guardsman has a lasrifle and ammo that costs more components to produce than the weapon itself is just wasting money and resources, considering lore-wise each soldier carries more than one spare cartridge and are very liberally sent to their deaths. If ammo was that costly, the Imperium would have collapsed from not having resources for other stuff. I get that it is high-tech, but the production-process in Warhammer has been so streamlined and optimized that billions of soldiers can be equipped with Lasguns and spare magazines and I think that at least the cost of the ammo should reflect that. After all, it was designed to be cheap and reliable. That is not to say that it should be that cheap, I'd suggest 50 steel for 200 shots, but using scarce resources like components and plasteel for a lot of missed shots isn't worth the effort in my opinion. I'm fine with the cost of the weapon, but again, the ammo becomes more expensive than the gun after a few raids.

If you want to keep the cost of the ammo high, the damage and penetration should be increased to give an incentive to use your guns over the CE-Guns, but I'm in favour of cheaper ammo.

Sice you said you don't use CE I hope my feedback can help you to make your mod even better. Other than the thing with the ammo I'm completely satisfied and I'm expecially loving the chainswords. Keep up the good work!

@qwerty
ah yeah, i forgot about that, thanks for the reminder, will try to get it functional for the next update, otherwise it will go on 'The List'

@Bayernkrieger
Firstly Thank you for the feedback it it very much appreciated and im glad your enjoying the mods!

Aye, the ammo costs have been brought up a couple of times, i do plan to reduce the cost them for the next release, as currently they are mostly just copy pasting whatever ammo def i started with as a base, ive already made a few changes in my local copy, but it could be awhile before its ready for public consumption, since i decided in a moment of inspiration to rip apart several of the systems in the mod to rebuild chunks of them, which also means needing to rebuild the CE versions of said systems, once i get them stable in vanilla again.....

https://gyazo.com/a70b21f1d98285ae7dfa3dac0cc6d8b8
https://gyazo.com/8a8fb5832db921e16c7f487906d84814
https://gyazo.com/cc398cc1e1fe9d3e9ddb729186cb4f40
https://gyazo.com/c58fc6c5ed35bc9dc29b8808e033beb6
https://gyazo.com/0f931d4faa33875145be937236e5c67b

though i think the results are worth it!

the damage values Probobly need tweaked too, since they are still using vanilla ones.

regarding Lasgun power packs in perticular, soley from a Lore perspective, the power packs actually Are more expsensive/resource intensive to create than the guns themselves, this is because of how easily they can be recharged, a guardsman is rarely issued with more than 1-2 packs(any others they have would have been taken from fallen comrades and hidden from the quatermasters), with each pack being good for between 40-120 odd shots, depending on the power setting/author, in CE, at least as far as im aware theres no system in place for a rechargeable pack,.so they will be reduced in price too (its a safe bet that Most of the ammuntion costs will be Drastically cut and the amounts crafted increased).

@Ogliss

Wow, thanks for the swift reply and another thanks for taking it into consideration! Those gifs look amazing, especially the third one. You really get a feel for the power of an imperial fireline.

Regarding the power packs: Would you believe that I honestly forgot the fact that they're rechargeable in the lore? I was so deep in "RimWorld-mode" that it totally slipped my mind. Then again, they won't be rechargeable in the game, so I'm glad you still took the currently high cost into consideration.

I'm really excited about the next release, especially since I saw the gifs, but take your time and do it when you're ready. Thanks again for making such an awesome mod and making me sink another 100 hours into this game!

Thanks for opening a CE feedback thread @Ogliss, I've been frothing at the mouth to discuss it, even going to the extent of tracking down poor old Saebbi because I remember reading that he helped make the submod. (The only people more fanatical than 40k nerds are CE nerds, and when you combine the two.. )

The main problem I have with the CE patch is that all the weapons feel very underpowered compared to vanilla, with particular emphasis on lasguns, Ork shootas and tau pulse rifles, but which is an issue that probably extends further.

In lore, a lasgun is about as effective as a modern battle-rifle, capable of removing limbs with a direct hit, I would expect that to be about 7.62x51 HP levels of damage. It also has an effective range limited only by the optics, as laser dispersion is not a problem in 40k.

A lasgun should thus have a damage range with a high probability of limb-destruction, cause severe pain to mitigate the fact that it cauterizes bleeds, and unless it's a hotshot, it shouldn't have much armor pen. It's range needs to be much higher, about equal to a battle-rifle.

Pulse rifles should have very good armor pen, and just a little less range than a good lasgun since it isn't visibility bound.

I never used the bolters, but I think that the balance on them should be about equivalent to a .50 cal round which both has high armor pen, and HE damage from the explosion. I would call it working as intended if it OHKs any human in less than power armor, while having the ability to pen power armor.

Someone raised the issue of ammo costs, which I agree with, but TLDR; I'd love to see a 50% increase in range for almost everything, and a massive increase in DPS! A fight in CE should be nasty, brutal and short, and especially so in 40k.

@AlphaAmpersandOmega
the N key on my keyboards dying, so dont mind any missing ones

Yeah i thought the damage values would probs need to be tweaked, as for the most part they still use the vanilla values, but as i dont use CE myself (i havet even played rimworld in about 2 years at this point for more than a couple hours outside testing stuff)

Increasing the range is on the books already, still using the same ranges as their vanilla counterparts currently iirc. if its a flat 50% increase across the board, that's easy enough, i need to write my own version of the CE MakeGunCompatible patch anyway to handle a couple of features, so hopefully i can include that into it (as im sure you can imagine, with the number of guns in the mod, its more than a tad tedious going through em all!)

being someone whos introduction to 40k was through tabletop which ive played for 20 years(though i havet kept up with it past 6th edition, as the people i used to play with all stopped playing or moved away), thats where the majority of my knowledge 40k stems from and while i realize you cant directly translate stats and rules from tabletop to rim, i do use them as a guide particularly in regards to how the weapons in the mod should relate to each other i terms of total burst damage, AP and range, with some caveats, such as pistols mostly using the vanilla pistol range of 25 cells, instead of 15-16 cells (half the rannge of the AR)

as much as i Love 40k, the lore can get kinda stupid(which can be part of its charm at times, like the orkz) and is WIldly inconsistant, with lasguns going from flashlights, to taking orkz arms off in a single hit, depending entirely on the author aother example would be that in lore a space marine can make a killshot with a bolter from over 1km away, and thats a Normal Godwyn pattern bolter and run at 90MPH in power armour.

imperial las weapons arent used because they are all that great, the main reason they are used by the IG is logistics, as the power packs can be recharged in situ, pretty much anywhere, you dont need to keep shipping ammo for the them out to the untold Billions of soldiers across the galaxy.(i actually ended up havig to tone them down for vanilla, the projectile speed being so high makes them real hard to get away from, but i think thats less of an issue in CE since its overall projectile speeds are lower)

regarding tau Pulse rifles, in tabletop, they actually have the longest range for a standard armament for any faction in 40k at 30. compared to lasguns, autoguns, bolters, Kroot Rifles, splinter rifles, gauss flayers, shootas which all have 24 or shuriken catapults with their 18 range(though these are assult 2, rather than rapid fire like all the others), they also outdamage all of those weapons with Stregth 5 AP 5, compared to the S3 AP- on lasgus/autogus, S3 AP5 onsplinter rifles, S4 AP5 on Shuriken catapults/Bolters/Gauss Flayers and S4 AP6 on Kroot Rifle.

thinking about it, CE is probobly better off using the inital values i used for damage ad AP way back when i first released the mod, which ive had to tone down Massively, cause people dont like their pawns dying haha

i dont mean to discounnt the feedback, it is most appreciated, thank you, just trying to explain why things are how they are in case that changes your recomedations.

if you are so inclined and able to make the changes to damage and ranges (keeping in mind the general guidelines of TT stats, modified to suit CE) i would be more than happy to accept pull requests via GitHub, or if Git is a little too intimidating (which it certainly can be if your not used to it) you could zip the modifed patch file and send it to me via Email, google drive, dropbox or discord.

it would be a Huge help if you can, im in the middle of rebuildig a bunch of stuff to try and improve performance and general functionality, which i will then need to port to CE so it will be awhile before i have time to implement stat changes on the CE side myself

Thanks for taking the time to reply and explain the rationale behind your design decisions!

I understand that 40k has some widely varying power levels, although I never played the tabletop and can't comment on how the balancing was handled in something that constrained by time and space.

Basically, I would say that CE errs on the side of trying to emulate the actual behavior of weaponry, which of course implies very high lethality, I'd personally expect the same thing from a mod that seeks to apply CE mechanics, but you do have a wide range of justifiable damage values.

Surprisingly enough, I finally managed to solve a mod conflict that stopped me playing rimworld for several months and got about 6 hours of intimate time with your mod and CE today, and the balance was better than I remembered it being. Of course, that wasn't enough time to check out all the guns, just the basic ones that the friendly neighborhood Orks and Tau had on hand haha. That certainly gives perspective on how big a pain it is to mod and edit it is for you!

If I could make a concrete suggestion, you could consider boosting weapon damage while simultaneously increasing the effectiveness of any armor your mods add. The net result would be a similar TTK for the player, as we always try our utmost to acquire the best armor for our characters, while making the AI more squishy as appropriate. Despite Imperial flak being a meme, I wouldn't be surprised if it was better than the best modern combat armor, making it justifiable to have it very resistant to most CE bullets that aren't explicitly AP and 7.62+. Carapace should be as good as light recon armor, and of course, power armor is power armor.

I was talking to another beginner modder on discord who wanted to patch Astra Militarum, and I even offered to collaborate with this mod, albeit I think you have a good handle on it. I'll see if I can sit and look at the damage values in more detail.

The easiest balance changes I can suggest without actually looking at the numbers would be-

1) Lasfire- Copy stats from 7.62x51 HP in CE, make the range 50-60 for the normal variant, have minimal armor penetration and comparatively low rate of fire when contrasted with modern assault rifles. You could bump that up and down for hotshots and long Las respectively.

2) Pulse rifles- Similar range. Higher AP damage, effectively interchangeable. Since most of your guns don't have ammo variants from what I can tell, it's fine to distinguish them from other races on a per weapon basis instead of ammo as CE does.

3) Heavy stubbers- You could literally just reskin 50 cal. Even the model on tabletop looks like a Browning if I remember correctly.

4) Bolters- CE has 50 cal HE, you could use that, reduce the fire rate compared to the existing 50 cals, but up the accuracy to account for the gyrojet and improved ammunition. I would suggest small mag sizes of no more than 20 for a normal bolter, as SMs usually are said to fire them semiautomatic or burst, with full auto being a last resort. You certainly can't fit that many rounds in a mag that size haha.


One thing you just said confuses me, CE has drastically higher bullet velocities compared to vanilla, I don't know if they're the same as real life, but if not, they're very close! Lasguns should be hit scan anyway, and I don't expect their to be many CE players who would be surprised by that.


I'll see if I can manage to translate tabletop stats, but I personally would prefer going the other way around, using the most sensible (even if overpowered by Rimworld or even CE standards) interpretation in lore and trying to make that a reality in the game. Of course, I base my guesstimates on my experience of damage modeling in realistic military shooters, with little knowledge of TT, while you be coming from the other direction.

And in case I sound nitpicky, I must say you've done a superb job, especially when you don't use CE yourself! I'll see what I can do to make life easier for you :)

whoops, i ment CE's overall projectile speeds are Higher

Oh, one very important thing Ogliss, the armor values for the Tau armor are off, they have 0.9mm RHA coverage, that's pretty much tinfoil. A basic steel vest in CE is 9mm, an order of magnitude higher. If you've got anything below 10, there needs to be a specific reason, otherwise some of them are outright useless sadly. I'm using the playable xenos mods as well if that makes any difference.

I'll spitball some more here-

Tau armor- RHA 10, but much lighter
Imperial Flak- RHA of 12
Carapace Armor- 15 but almost as heavy as light recon armors from the base game
Any power armors, which I haven't experienced, should have it around 30.


The Tau in battlesuits should have something around 25-35. So should any Ork armor.

@Ogliss Just checking in in case you didn't see the rest of the thread.

The most glaring flaw in the CE compat is armor values. Anything below 5mm of RHA as measured by CE is tissue paper, and I've seen Tau, Ork and Eldar armor that are literally less than 1mm. If this was fixed, it would make playing as those races viable without having to resort to stealing human armor haha

To put that into perspective, a steel vest is about 9, and power armor is 20. You can slot most 40K equipment from 12 to 30 in the real high end without being impenetrable.

I've seen common instances of units spawning without ammo, more often in Eldar than other races.

As for the rest, I stand by the range increases by a broad 50%, and DPS isn't as bad as I thought but still between a 20-30% increase would be worth it especially as most guns only take one ammo type and can't let you specialize for taking out higher or lower armor targets. I know in TT, guns specialized, not ammo, but in the lore there are different kinds of bolter shells at least, ranging from mass-reactive HE, AP, or maybe even EMP if you want something that can fight abominable intelligences or the Necrons.


Some abilities added by guns seem to be broken. I've tried to use the Tau photon grenade, and all it does is shake the screen for a minute without any actual projectile. I wouldn't be surprised if other abilities with projectiles outright didn't work sadly.

You'd ideally want to create physical photon grenades, craftable in bulk, and equivalent for other races, assuming there isn't an easy way to get them working as intended.

Oh no worries, im reading it all, just having a few days downtime. when you do this as much as i do, its important to have a few days off now and then! (having a bit of an XCom2 binge, with all the 40k mods of course!)

Re Armour:
alot of the armour values will be Real low, or unpatched, since the CE patching for the races themselves is Old, like 1.0 old and i didnt realise that CE needed armour patched back then.
in my local build ive already tweaked alot of the armour values.

Though for a Non CE player, the whole RHA measurements kinda confusing, since in the stats themselves its controlled like
<armorPenetrationSharp>28</armorPenetrationSharp>
<armorPenetrationBlunt>72</armorPenetrationBlunt>

on weapons/projectiles

and

<ArmorRating_Sharp>0.05</ArmorRating_Sharp>
<ArmorRating_Blunt>0.05</ArmorRating_Blunt>

on apparel

and ive no clue how that translates to what the RHA is.

Re Spawning without Ammo:
Might be a weight/bulk issue, not entirely sure.

Re Ammo types:
Yeah, adding the different bolt types is something thats been on my mind for vanilla for Ages(ive actually had defs for Hellfire, Kraken, Vengeance and Dragonfire bolts in the mnod for bloody Ages, just havent figured out how i want to implement em in vanilla)

Re Item Abilities:
Yeah, tbh i Totally forgot about them when it came to CE patching, thats a whole Other kettle of fish, cause thats all custom code of mine i'll need to redo to work with CE, and its a Bit of a ♥♥♥♥♥ haha.

Glad to hear it, and no worries, we don't grudge you time off, especially to recover Holy Terra and smite Xenos in His Name, haha

Frankly speaking, the RHA system is a bit weird, the CE devs most likely have a formula to convert to it, but even then, not even hardcore gun-nuts usually think in terms like that for anything other than an armored fighting vehicle.

<ArmorRating_Sharp> - With the changes to the armor system, sharp armor is now rated in "equivalent to millimeters of Rolled Homogeneous Armor"--essentially, the thickness of a piece of hot-rolled steel. For pieces of armor actually made from steel, this is as simple as inputting the thickness. For other items, it's more practical to review the armor penetrating capabilities of various projectiles and decide which ones you want the armor thick enough to stop. This should be done with care, lest you find yourself wearing medieval-era armor that shrugs off rifle rounds.
<ArmorRating_Blunt> - Similar to the above, blunt armor is now rated units of force--Megapascals. Use your references to decide what other kinds of armor is offers similar protection to and what kinds of attacks you want it to protect from.
<StuffEffectMultiplierArmor> - For apparel made from a material (it will have a name like "wooden" or "cloth" or "devilstrand" [apparel]), it isn't necessary to specify a specific set of armor values. Since all materials have a set blunt and sharp armor rating, you can simply specify a multiplier (this is, in effect, the thickness of the material measured in millimeters), and it will inherit armor stats from the material it is made out of.


I can understand if the abilities get too much to keep up with, they're probably low priority as their absence doesnt outright break much.

It depends on what you want, balance or immerision into 40k, personally I find most of the weapons quite weak for 40k standards and CE standards aswell.

take it with a grain of salt, from the wiki for the gripinaa Pattern Mark 2 Autogun
(traitors at vraks)

Length: 109 centimetres
Barrel: 54 centimetres
Weight: 6.2 kilograms
Calibre: long 8.25mm
Feed: 20 or 30 rounds box magazine
Cyclic rate of fire: 625 rounds per minute
Muzzle velocity: 825 metres/second

8mm Remington Magnum is the closet real life round to it, CE has values for the .338 norma magnum, which is slightly larger, so perhaps start there and weaken it abit. so for the munitions id take 300x for 26 steel, the .338 norma is 200x for 20 steel

Lasguns should be overall better, so from whatever point you start slightly above the .338 norma, personally id make las-guns harder to reach in the tech-tree than they are now, or make it so you can make the las-gun's but not its munitions till later, that way if you get lucky from raid you might find a cartridge or two, or even from trades.

hot-shot lasguns are actually useful as they are, high pen solid damage low magazine, they are perhaps the best designed atm, id like to see that damage at about 20 though, with 55-60 range, they are expensive in both ammo and build, so its justified to be potent.