XCOM 2
A Better Barracks
Azzla Oct 30, 2017 @ 12:22pm
The Role of Cannons in ABB
For reference, I'm sitting around at the early midgame on the current build, with mag weapons and plate armor, both Squad Size upgrades, but no Colonels yet.

I'm really sorry, DerBK, but in my opinion, Cannons are not good enough in any given role to outclass the other primaries. Shotguns are extremely powerful in CQC at the expense of ranged utility. Rifles are versatile at the expense of damage output. Snipers are powerful AND accurate, at the expense of mobility and close-quarters utility. Cannons, as currently designed, get three strengths: ammunition count, environmental damage, and (potentially) two shots per turn. As tradeoffs: EXTREME mobility impairment (even Snipers get to move + reload, but Cannons do not), and significant accuracy penalties at all ranges if you use Spray, which is presented as their ostensible "niche".

I'm trying to utilize Cannons. I really am. I'm deliberately forcing myself to use Spray as much as possible, often trading what I consider a more optimal play for double-sprays, just to see if anything of note or usefulness happens. I STILL have yet to see any real, useful environmental/cover destruction to speak of. My Scout, wielding a ballistic rifle at the time, has accidentally destroyed an enemy's cover with a standard shot exactly once - more times than any of my Cannoneers have ever managed, with deliberate multisprays, in every circumstance I could contrive to attempt it. The Cannon's environmental damage is simply not reliable enough to even be noticeable, let alone a tangible "strength".

Now, what you do with your mod is up to you, of course. But, I beg you, consider buffing Cannons a bit, or at least reexamine their purpose. I think you're on the right track with the "Volume of Fire" angle for their niche, but the tradeoffs are so crippling as to render them essentially pointless when set up against the other primary weapons.

In my opinion, what would make Cannons an interesting AND viable option as an alternative to the other primaries is:

a) Keep the significant accuracy penalties if the Cannoneer moves and shoots.
b) If the Cannoneer stays put, ALWAYS let them fire two shots, and let the first shot be a regular old standard shot with no accuracy penalty (beyond the usual).
c) AFTER the standard shot, allow the Cannoneer to either Spray with an aim penalty, or Suppress a target.
d) If this seems too powerful, perhaps consider a requirement to spend a turn "setting up" the Cannon somehow.

I know you've expressed some hesitancy about cluttering anything with too many innate perks, but I think it's a system worth considering. If you wanted you could drop the Suppression option, of course. But the Cannon needs SOMETHING, as it currently stands, and I believe that tactical crowd control could be exactly the niche. Suppression, contrary to what some have said, is a legitimately useful tool (though I've always thought, as a kind of "single-target" Overwatch, it should not be subject to the -15 aim penalty it has in Vanilla), and has saved my soldiers from injury or death many times. The problem is that Suppression is very rarely worth giving up your standard shot.

So, give us options! Let us have our cake and eat it, too. Let us keep the Cannon's already mediocre standard shot and then rain down additional fire.

For your consideration. Thanks for being an awesome modder, DerBK. I'm confident you'll find a place and a role for the Cannon eventually.
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Showing 1-6 of 6 comments
Lago Oct 30, 2017 @ 4:54pm 
A while back (back when cannons were two actions to fire with single action suppression) I suggested something similar: give the cannon a free shot if it uses the two action shot. This creates a situation where the cannon can either shoot twice or move without allowing the cannon to move once and shoot. It's very powerful if it stays put and powerless if it moves.

MechanicalIy saw it working like Templar Parry: after taking a standard two-action shot with the cannon the soldier is given one action point which can only be spent on Overwatch, Suppression or a second shot.
Type1Ninja Oct 30, 2017 @ 5:09pm 
For what it's worth, with the current aim penalty, double-Spray is objectively better than a regular shot at hit chances above 50%. Your potential damage is twice as high as normal, AND you're more likely to hit at least one shot. In terms of sheer damage dealing, it's probably still better down a few more percentage points.
DerBK  [developer] Oct 30, 2017 @ 8:21pm 
Once i have made just a few more touches on the mod that i think are essential, i want to start my own campaign. Before i do that, i am going to reserve further judgment on the viability/non-viability of the cannon, either factual or perceived.

The only thing i can look at right now as cold numbers and those suggest that due to exactly what Type1Ninja describes, the cannon should have a significant damage output in any medium range engagement. Even with mediocre hit chances, taking two shots at some target is probably going to result in good damage. What's more, you get the high variance chance of hitting both and just wiping out a target. Not something you can count on, but something to capitalize on when it happens - somewhat similar to a Hair Trigger proc in that regard.

If a cannon can take an "aimed" shot for 70%, it can also take two Spray shots instead at 50%.
The percentages work out like this:
25%: No hit
50%: hit
25%: Double hit

So only in 25% of cases the shot misses, with the aimed shot it would have been 30%. So not only do more shots hit, but also of those hits one third are a double hit with obscene damage. This extra hit chance and extra damage you buy with the 2 ammo you spend instead of 1.

Spray is a very, very good ability on paper. And i have the suspicion that there is a lot of confirmation bias running around right now, making it appear weaker than it is just because the percentage numbers appear low and there are missed shots (a common XCOM2 player's trauma) involved.

As an aside, the cannon is also really good if you can set up in a good elevated spot in lost cities. A 9 shot deep ammo reserve helps a lot when standing on a balcony near an open road, raining down fire and blood on the zombies.

For my part, i like the cannon as it is right now and don't see reasons to do anything to it, much less so drastic things like the ones suggested in the OP. I may be totally off base, of course. That's always possible, but i currently don't have any reason to believe that. My own campaign will be a major deciding factor, i am also keeping an eye on two YouTubers/Streamers, where i can get a pretty good impression of what works, what doesn't and what may just need a little bit more clarification.
Last edited by DerBK; Oct 30, 2017 @ 8:23pm
Azzla Oct 30, 2017 @ 8:57pm 
I hardly think what I've suggested is "drastic". Take the two low-percentage shots, and switch it to one decent shot and one low-percentage.

I understand your position, of course. The math may work out in Spray's favor (even if only by a margin of 5 percent!) but the psychological "feel" of a class and/or weapon is a hugely important part of its design. Cannons feel clunky and unreliable, in my (admittedly anecdotal) campaign experience thus far. Something that is balanced and marginally better on paper can still feel completely lifeless and pointless.

Confirmation bias, sure. I can only report what I've personally felt, and yet, like I said, I have been going out of my way specifically to use Spray and have not felt any great advantage or purpose for bringing a Cannon over any of the other weapons. -20 aim for the privilege of using Spray feels TERRIBLE.

Do what you will with your mod. I still enjoy it. Worst case scenario, I can retune the specs myself for personal use. If that's what it takes...
Last edited by Azzla; Oct 30, 2017 @ 9:05pm
kbecker797785 Oct 30, 2017 @ 11:05pm 
My opinion is that with the recent update the cannon is in a good position. It now give more tactical options then it did before and with certain upgrades it becomes a beast on the field. Also, there must have been a change to the arc thrower as it hits more often now. I can explain in more details later when I am not using a phone to type.
Last edited by kbecker797785; Oct 30, 2017 @ 11:07pm
Lago Oct 31, 2017 @ 3:27am 
"And i have the suspicion that there is a lot of confirmation bias running around right now, making it appear weaker than it is just because the percentage numbers appear low and there are missed shots (a common XCOM2 player's trauma) involved."

I think this is a very fair point. With a small pool of testers the feedback is very anectodal. I'll keep it in mind with any feedback I give from here on out.

One thing I'd like to throw on the suggestion table is making the penalty -15 instead of -20. That's the same as the penalty for the other rushed shots: Rapid Fire, Chain Shot and Overwatch. That makes flanking low cover worthwhile and has a nice internal consistency to it.
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