@Tyrant: I've been using Psychology for years (mostly for the Kinsey scale), and it works fine. Just make sure to disable the mayor election subfeature, it's badly designed and has little in common with the rest of the mod.

> I'd like there to be some downside to being in a relationship where one partner is not fully attracted to the other. I have some ideas but none of them feel quite right. So it might be something I tackle later.

Well, if it were me (and it's not, I certainly appreciate the work you and other modders put in), I'd first lean into making it so that the initial romance is unlikely to happen. But when and if it does, then it would assign a secret penalty to the pairing that can be anywhere from 0 to relevant_config_value and that affects all their romance-based/sex-based interactions.

The penalty would only be generated at the start of the relationship, because if you keep on generating it over time with bad odds, eventually the relationship is going to fall apart. That way you end up with some relationships where "love wins" while others are more fraught.

@Tyrant Right now, the plan is that asexual people behave the same as they do now, but otherwise sexual attraction is required for sexual activities. That's not 100% locked in though. I'd like there to be some downside to being in a relationship where one partner is not fully attracted to the other. I have some ideas but none of them feel quite right. So it might be something I tackle later.

It is, unsurprisingly, very difficult to emulate the complexity of human relationships with math and code.

> @Tyrant This mod was published in 2022.

Yeah, I'm getting up there in years. Time slips away like that.

> There will be no wrong gender romances. Instead there will be a setting to allow people to have separate romantic and sexual orientations. So people can choose whether they want simple or complex relationship rules.

So does that mean we can effectively have the way the mod works now by setting everyone's romantic orientation to bisexual but having their sexual orientation still be varied? Or will they refuse to have sex?

@Tyrant This mod was published in 2022.

I was responding to you responding to my comment about romance attempts. Not marriage proposals.

"There will be no wrong gender romances. Instead there will be a setting to allow people to have separate romantic and sexual orientations. So people can choose whether they want simple or complex relationship rules."

> Perhaps you should try Psychology instead, it uses the Kinsey scale.

Looked into it. Apparently it's been on life support since 1.1 and is quite buggy these days. Unfortunate. Thanks for the recommendation anyway though, it'd be perfect if it was still maintained.

> I'm very familiar with vanilla's romance code, and I can assure, it does not happen.

Well, apparently there was a big hullabaloo about the way relationships worked in late 2018 so things probably got changed around.

> What you are describing is how this mod currently works.

Well, no, like you said before, contra-orientation marriage won't happen even on rare cases despite contra-orientation romance being able to.

> I've already told you what the intended changes are.

I'm failing to grasp which changes you're referring to when you mention nuance.

@Tyrant Difference of interpretation then.

Well, you are in the minority with that opinion. Most people I hear from want it gone. Perhaps you should try Psychology instead, it uses the Kinsey scale.

I'm very familiar with vanilla's romance code, and I can assure, it does not happen. Adding it was one of the features for this mod. What you are describing is how this mod currently works.

I've already told you what the intended changes are. I've been working on this update for years at this point, and I'm not looking for suggestions about the underlying systems.

> It creates a sense of drama and could lead to them breaking up.

Maybe it's just me, but only one outcome being possible doesn't do much for me in the drama department. I'd rather success be possible if rare.

> Orientation has to mean something, or else why have it in the first place?

Orientation, in my opinion, should be about defining the pawn's *preference*, it doesn't have to be black and white. That's why I was asking about things like adjusting the contra-orientation penalty. I don't want to set it to 0.

> vanilla does not allow romance attempts if either party is the wrong gender for the other's orientation

My understanding is that it does happen in vanilla but you can't initiate it manually and it's statistically quite rare and there needs to be factors like high pawn beauty, etc... But that could've changed or could've been a bug, who knows.

> I've come up with a better way to achieve the nuance I wanted when I added it in the first place.

What did you have in mind?

@Tyrant I don't know what you mean about knowing the outcome. The person asking doesn't know what the response will be. They don't know that they're in a game and all of their behavior is decided by code. How you interpret their actions is up to you.

I think that one person proposing and their partner declining because they don't view themselves that way is interesting. It creates a sense of drama and could lead to them breaking up. Orientation has to mean something, or else why have it in the first place?

Marriage outside orientation is not possible in vanilla, because you have to be lovers first, and vanilla does not allow romance attempts if either party is the wrong gender for the other's orientation.

But none of this matters, because as I've already said, it's going away. Wrong gender pairings have been a constant cause of user complaints and I've come up with a better way to achieve the nuance I wanted when I added it in the first place.

> Pawns will never accept a marriage proposal outside their orientation. Again, this is to create interesting stories.

...How is knowing what the outcome will be an interesting story? Love never wins? Even in vanilla, it's possible for a contra-orientation marriage to happen. I'm honestly a bit baffled by the thought process here.

@Greystar Please read the bug reporting instructions, I need more than just that snippet

@Tyrant I'm gonna be honest, I don't always remember the reasons behind a decision, but this was one I made at the beginning when deciding the direction I wanted to take this mod. I do know that I wanted to increase the chances of having 'bad' outcomes. Asking someone out and getting turned down is a more interesting story than never asking in the first place.

Pawns will never accept a marriage proposal outside their orientation. Again, this is to create interesting stories.

I think there may be a bug/interaction between this mod and possibly Xenobionic Patcher. Exception filling tab RimWorld.ITab_Pawn_Health: System.NullReferenceException: No WBR_SettingsComp found on Behemoth 1, race: AA_Behemoth, pawnkind: AA_Behemoth
[Ref 764123F4]
at BetterRomance.SettingsUtilities.GetRelationSettings (Verse.Pawn pawn) [0x0002c] in D:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\RimWorld\Mods\WayBetterRomance\Source\SettingsUtilities.cs:300
at BetterRomance.SettingsUtilities.MinAgeToHaveChildren (Verse.Pawn pawn, Verse.Gender gender) [0x00013] in D:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\RimWorld\Mods\WayBetterRomance\Source\SettingsUtilities.cs:361
at RimWorld.Recipe_ImplantIUD.AvailableOnNow (Verse.Thing thing, Verse.BodyPartRecord part) [0x00041] in <24d25868955f4df08b02c73b55f389fe>:0
- TRANSPILER rimworld.divineDerivative.romance: IEnumerable`1 BetterRomance.HarmonyPatches.Recipe_ImplantIUD_AvailableOnNow:Transpiler(IEnumerable`1 instructions)

Also, is it just me, or do marriage proposals also have the contra-orientation penalty even when the pawns are already in a relationship?

> The relationship status of the other person is never taken into account when considering a potential action. This was a core design decision and is consistent throughout the mod.

May I ask why?

@Tyrant There will be no wrong gender romances. Instead there will be a setting to allow people to have separate romantic and sexual orientations. So people can choose whether they want simple or complex relationship rules.

The default orientation chances are inherited from the original mod in a long chain of updates. The only decision I made in that regard was not to change them. I'm not interested in arguing with everyone and their mother about what makes sense to them. It's adjustable for a reason.

The relationship status of the other person is never taken into account when considering a potential action. This was a core design decision and is consistent throughout the mod.

@divineDerivative Sounds promising! I have a list of questions for you if that's alright (I'll reiterate my past comments that didn't get a reply so it's all in the same place):

▪ Instead of "'wrong' gender romances", maybe "contra-orientation"?

▪ Any ETA on the rework?

▪ Will we be able to adjust penalties for contra-orientation romance?

▪ The defaults for non-straight commonalities strains credulity in my opinion. A PRRI 2024 Generational Change Report clocks Gen Z at 15% bi, 5% gay, 8% other.
  ▫ Given your reasons for the high defaults, maybe you'd consider roughly double that, like 30% bi, 10% gay, 10% asexual? It'd make whether a pawn is straight or not 50/50.

▪ Pawns that are single are too desperate, they keep hitting on pawns in closed relationships, even against their preferences. Any plans to adjust or let us configure this?
  ▫ I know about adjusting the base rate, I just feel there should be separate settings for hitting up "fully taken" pawns.

@Tyrant It is intended that you can order pawn A to hook up with anyone allowed by pawn A's orientation, where there is a non-zero chance of pawn B saying yes. For lovers outside their orientation, whether it makes sense depends on how you look at it. I can see it going either way. But "wrong" gender romances are going away when I finish the rework, so it won't matter soon™.

Okay so, I'm noticing that you can order a hookup to someone who is already a pawn's lover, I'm not sure if this is intended. If it is, I find it weird that a pawn can't hook up with a lover if they're an incompatible gender (a gay pawn went into a straight romance).

@catlovr It is in the FAQ, third from the bottom.

Hi! I've recently started a save and would like to know if this is save compatible. Checked the FAQ and didn't see it there, so I'd like to see if it won't brick my ♥♥♥♥ upon loading my colony.

Thank you for the answer and the recommendations ! I'll be sure to check them out

@Nixia Because it is poorly coded and making it compatible would require rewriting most of their mod via patches. I don't like doing that. I would encourage you to check out Simple Trans (Expanded) or Intimacy - Gender Works .

@destiny akino If I were to implement such a thing, it would not be as simple as replacing a trait. I'd want it to be more nuanced, like Edges of Acceptance . So, maybe someday, but no plans right now.

Can you add Ideology sexuality trait precept. like all male need to be asexual overwrite their trait Please. I know it can set in setting but it kinda fun not all pawn are asexual like?

Why is this not compatible with the Hermaphrodite Gene Continued mod ?

@pepe le moko Any load order requirements that I am aware of are in the rules, so it should be correctly sorted by whatever mod manager you use, including vanilla. If you discover any issues that are solved by changing the load order, please let me know and I will add it to the rules.

Could you give me some pointers about where this mod should be in the load order please?

@divineDerivative Any chance of adding a way to configure the commonality rates of Philanderer and Faithful (ideally on a per-sex basis)?

Aside from those two that this mod adds, I'm only using only vanilla traits, and they're calculated at 0.1% chance. That's six times more rare than misogynist on female pawns and misandrist on male pawns.

To my tastes, "almost nonexistent" isn't a good spot for traits that can generate on baseline pawns. I would either increase the commonality rates considerably (perhaps making Philanderer a bit more common for male and Faithful a bit more common for female), or I'd set the commonality to 0 to disable them outright.

I could just make a personal patch, of course, but handling them in the same place as every other thing I'd want to tweak for this mod (i.e. in its mod options GUI) would be ideal.

@Husker_85 The point about the high bisexuality rate is a good one, though my two cents is the default values should be at least a bit more plausible. A PRRI 2024 Generational Change Report clocks Gen Z adults at 15% bisexual, 5% gay, and 8% other.

I'd suggest to the author to make the default spread 30% bisexual, 10% gay, 10% asexual. But I'm not entrenched into the idea or anything.

"there should be some way to either ask them to join the colony"

I currently use "We Are United" mod for this functionality. Not sure if you'd heard of it, but worth checking out if you haven't!

I wanted a MOD that was tolerant of sexual orientation, but they were hard to find. I might have finally found the MOD I was looking for! Thanks!

Thanks for the answer! That's perfect.

On a separate note: RotR's latest update seems to have broken your compatibility patch:

[WayBetterRomance] Error encountered while patching Romance on the Rim: System.InvalidProgramException: Invalid IL code in (wrapper dynamic-method) MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition:RomanceOnTheRim.QuestNode_Root_Crush.GetSinglePawns_Patch1 ()

Full Log: https://gist.github.com/HugsLibRecordKeeper/8349490a00ec339f3c94ad303333772d

@AerosAtar It uses the vanilla process, which is to assign it after the age 13 growth moment.

Somewhat random question to which I can't spot or intuit a definitive answer: In the current system, how does the trait assignment work for children born to the colony via Biotech?

Is the sexuality trait assigned at birth (probably the easiest solution), or at a specific age milestone (perhaps more realistic, but more cumbersome I would imagine), or is one just not assigned to them at all unless it pops up in the milestone choices (probably the worst solution)?

Hi, really like your mod, is there any update on the compatibility with non binary gender? I used this mod with Rim-Hivers and the game really didint like it lol. Again big fan of the mod <3

@ඞThe ♥♥♥ Cultistඞ pretty sure it's set to 50% by default not for realism, but because by-the-numbers bisexual pawns are more interesting than gay or straight pawns because they introduce more possibilities into your story generation game

Ahhh, clever. Good to know it was addressed. Maybe elaborate on the issue and the way it was fixed under Major Changes? I feel like more people should be made aware of this core game flaw.

@Tyrant I set the commonality of all orientation traits to 0, so they will never be selected by RandomElementByWeight.

I know the mod says "This does not use a trait slot! Sexuality traits are assigned after all other traits are generated.", but you might not be aware of this issue:

In the core game, sexuality traits can be generated in the initial pawn generation pass. In that scenario, it takes up one of the three slots. It's a very irritating and very hardcoded issue.

Ideally, they should only be added in the second pass.

Looking at the code, it doesn't seem like there's a fix for it... Maybe it's the Harmony patch for TraitSet_GainTrait?

50% bisexual? bro, on what planet do u live

I can't remember if it was an earlier version of this mod or another mod entirely, but you used to be able to manually trigger the hangout interaction via dev mode's "force interaction." The option is still there, but it just can't be triggered. If it was this mod, was it changed? It was just a really nice feature. Thank you for this mod either way!

@divineDerivative: Thank you kindly for the info. I'll check out that mod, too!

@The Rabid Otter There has to be some mechanism to choose the location, and beds are an easy way to do that. Unowned beds are valid targets, so put a double sleeping spot behind the barn and they'll use it.

Intimacy - A Lovin' Expansion includes lovin' anywhere as par of its features, so you might check that out.

Is there a way for pawns to romance or hook up anywhere? Like in real life? Or is there something in the Rimworld base code that requires romance/hooking up to take place in a bed? Why can't they go out behind the barn? Or get it on in the research lab? Like in real life?

My poly amorous colonists often won't sleep with someone because a compatible bed isn't prepared. I've tried to give each pawn a two-person bed, but that only works sometimes.

Is my best option to get a mod with very large beds?

@RestoredStar8 As listed in that mod's compatibility section, it includes compatibility with WBR.

Hi, is Intimacy - A Lovin Expansion considered compatible?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3498422643

@NEBULA Please read the bug reporting section.

Hi, just wanted to share a bug I found after a long troubleshooting session. There's a conflict between “Way Better Romance“and ”Wula Fallen Empire“.
When both mods are enabled, the world generator creates a planet with an extremely low number of faction settlements (like, only 2-3 instead of 20+).

Just a warning for others running xenotype mods that add additional gender options, Rim-Hivers for example, combining those mods with this one seems to somehow break quest generation preventing the information from getting filled in in the quest description and name. It makes sense as looking through the compatibility requests it looks like extra genders is already a known issue but hopefully this comment helps save someone else a bunch of troubleshooting.

But anyways, the only real potentials of incompatibility I see is with kisney scale enabled, so I think it would be nice if you could put a side note in Compatibility Requests that it should work fine with kisney scale disabled.