Board games ... a podcast parody ...

[Mezmorki]

So, Quarter To Three had a recent podcast episode intended to be a "dummies guide to boardgames" which intended to provide an into the awesome world of board games for their strategy-learning audience. Here's the episode:

http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2016/03/24/qt3-games-podcast-boardgames-dummies-friends/

I'm a long-time board gamer & designer. So I'm always interested in how people try to pitch board games to a new audience. After listening to this podcast, I have a few snarky comments. In fact I'm going to write a parody of this entire podcast. Because if I knew nothing about board games, and this was my introduction to them, one might interpret the podcast like this:

The Parody

01: You've probably played roll and move games like monopoly. We can all agree that these games SUCK (except for some weird obscure game you'll never be able to find a copy of). Board games have become so much better since you last played one!

02: You can play a card-driven wargame like A Few Acres of Snow, which you can probably figure out (the rules aren't "that" hard) but you are going to have a hard time wrapping your mind around all the strategies involved. It might SUCK – so be careful. Start with something easier.

03: On that point, we have deckbuilding games. But these mostly SUCK because they require you to learn a lot of cards, it's confusing to figure out which set to buy, and games can be too non-interactive. Plus they are dry and mechanical. Ascension is alright. But most deckbuilders SUCK.

04: Remember how Magic the Gathering stole all your money? That sucked right? Well, now we have Living Card Games that don't rob you quite so badly - but if you are new to board games stay away from these because they are complicated and take a lot of time outside of the game to make decks. And they are still an investment if you want to keep up, which sucks.

05: Let's talk about worker placement games instead. These all SUCK because player interactions are indirect and based on ♥♥♥♥-blocking. ♥♥♥♥-blocking sucks. Ergo worker placement sucks.

06: How about Tableau games? If you are interested in playing board games because it’s a chance to interact with people, stay away from these, because they are all about staring down at your own little playpen in silence. It sucks.

07: How about tile laying games? These have a big common area right? Yes, but these mostly suck because there is too much down time and randomness, and you can't plan your turn ahead of time because the board is always changing. Interactions are still too indirect. Maybe they are okay if combined with other mechanics? Maybe …

08: Like auction and bidding games? These can be cool games, but it SUCKS because they have fallen out of vogue. Good luck finding someone to play with! Hahahaha….

09: Something was mumbled about Tigris & Euphrates – about how it was a eurogame? Eurogames sound cool because of all their streamlined mechanics and what not right? Sure, but really they SUCK because of their dry pasted on themes.

10: Which is why we have Ameritrash games! Lots of theme and you really have to execute all the actions in great detail. Except this requires lots of fiddly little rules with no clear answers. And sometimes this feels like playing with dolls. And a lot of these games are kickstarter games that are sold more for the mini's than the gameplay – because the gameplay is cumbersome and SUCKS.

11: Thankfully there are hybrid games that take the best of both euro and Ameritrash games. Except we can't think of any good examples. These must of not been that memorable after all … maybe they sucked too?

12: Well, perhaps you fancy a wargame or a miniature game? Stay away from these. In the former's case, you aren't ready to handle the likes of Advance Squad Leader …. go back to Close Combat. In the latter's case – miniature games aren't really games at all, at least that’s not why most people buy them. It's all about painting figurines and crafting post-apocalyptic scenery.

13: If you really want to play a big wargame – get used to the idea of playing it by yourself with you playing "both sides" – because you will never find another human being to play with. Which SUCKS. Speaking of which ….

14: Solitaire games are a bit of a fad right now. But you know … why would you ever play a board game alone instead of … you know … a computer game that doesn't suck to badly? Besides, most solitaire board games are just intricate puzzle boxes to solve, not unlike …

15: Cooperative games! These all SUCK because the player at the table that knows the game will tell everyone else what to do. They might as well just go home back and play it by themselves. Yes, it will SUCK for everyone else at the table.

16: You "could" play a cooperative game with a hidden traitor mechanic. These can be cool, but the only one we want to talk about is Battlestar Galactica, which really just SUCKS because it takes forever and the rules are mess. Not for beginners.

17. So how about these social deduction games? Yeah, these are pretty good. They are fast and interactive and still pretty strategic. But you know what … if you like to play games because you want to win, then these games will SUCK for you because you won't be able to win all the time and people will point and laugh at your tears. And you suck too.

18. If I were stranded on a desert island, I wouldn't bring any board games because they all suck. I'd bring a computer and a solar panel and tell everyone to go screw themselves … because they suck.

:P

More to come :)

[Crunchy]

Man the right people playing bsg... That's a hell of a lot of fun.

[Mezmorki]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crunchy Gremlin:

Man the right people playing bsg... That's a hell of a lot of fun.

Yeup :)

[screamingpalm]

Hey Mez, what are the more complex card games that you would recommend? I spent way too much money on MtG back in the early 2000's and lagged behind the powercreep in Hearthstone because I wasn't going to support predatory models anymore. I like those types of games, but not enough to sink a pile o' money into.

Re #13- I disagree... as critical as I am of slithernine, the one thing they did that deserves credit is setting up servers for pbem play, and the mac daddy strategy wargames (Grigsby titles) all have very active multiplayer communities- even the older ones are going strong and all are easy to find an opponent for.

[Drefk2000]

Empires in arms, the boardgame to rule them all. I still play twice a month with 6 friends. It never gets boring..

[Crunchy]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Drefk2000:

Empires in arms, the boardgame to rule them all. I still play twice a month with 6 friends. It never gets boring..

have played the pc version? is it any good?
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/285/details/Empires.in.Arms

[Crunchy]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von screamingpalm:

Hey Mez, what are the more complex card games that you would recommend? I spent way too much money on MtG back in the early 2000's and lagged behind the powercreep in Hearthstone because I wasn't going to support predatory models anymore. I like those types of games, but not enough to sink a pile o' money into.

:jumping in...
I was working on a couple of ideas for card games recently.
one was a thing i was calling "the cost of Empire" which was a 4xish card game with a trash mechanic where some actions would give these trash cards to represent the human cost of running an empire and a sort of creatable story line that these trash cards might be used to become the evil empire.

the other being a fighting game but having a rule set for creating cards. Interesting thing is that creating card sets is real easy these days and printing them is cheap.

Things like paperize http://paperize.io/beta help a great deal.

that said my favorite card game after MtG is Dominion. Ascension was fun but dominion... was awesome. Now there are so many deckbuilders out there. Dominion though was damn good. IMHO and not a collectible.

Some of the card games that i was playing in some of the local playtester groups were also very good. These newer games are mixing board games and card games. so i think that they use a worker placement concept that turns the card game into a strategic war game.

[Mezmorki]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von screamingpalm:

Hey Mez, what are the more complex card games that you would recommend?

I'm working on an article for eXplorminate that covers various Civ and 4X-ish board games that people might want to look at. In the meantime, and as far as card games go, a couple come to mind ......

Race for the Galaxy

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/28143/race-galaxy

This is a tableau building + role selection game that is sort of a 4X in card-game format (minus the extermination, so more of a 3X). Players are building out their own little empire of planets + developments, and when a certain amount of victory points have been distributed or cards have been built, the game ends. The player with the most points win, with points being earned through controlling world & developments AND producing & consuming various trade goods.

Mechanically, here is one big deck of cards that contain "worlds" or "developments", and each player has a starting hand of cards. Each player also has a hand of role cards like "Explore, Settle, Develop, Trade, etc." Each turn/round, players simultaneously pick and reveal a role card. Then each player simultaneously performs the associated actions, with the card owner of a given action getting an enhanced version.

Anyway - it's an interesting game. Initially it won't feel very interactive as you learn the mechanics and all the cards. But then you hit this moment where it sort of opens up, and you realize the game is all about the role cards, and playing them strategical to deny your opponent god moves while you leech opportunities off their cards. It's pretty great. The first expansion (The Gathering Storm) includes a very slick AI "robot" to play solo against.

Here's a nice review:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/488273/race-galaxy-detailed-review

Others to maybe check out:
- Impulse (4X card game with crazy action chaining / combo building)
- Core Worlds (space conquest deckbuilding thing)
- Star Realms (like the deckbuilding game Ascension but better and more confrontational - from the same designer). Also in iOS.

[Mezmorki]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crunchy Gremlin:

that said my favorite card game after MtG is Dominion. Ascension was fun but dominion... was awesome. Now there are so many deckbuilders out there. Dominion though was damn good. IMHO and not a collectible.

I'm an unabashed Dominion hater. The game was hugely influential and important as the first big Deckbuilding game. But I would play ANY other deckbuilding game before dominion. Why?

First of all, dominion is a painfully dry and unexciting game thematically. That doesn't bother some people, but I'd prefer something more engaging and imaginative. Second, the game basically asks you to stare at the menu of the 10 cards on offer for an inordinately long period of time and come up with a strategy for how you want ot sequence your card purchases. Then you get to execute the plan (sounds good so far). But then each turn becomes its own puzzle to optimize your hand and card play .... and it just takes way to freaking long for how much depth I get out of it. Plus the interaction is very indirect. 95% of the game time is spent staring at your hand of cards, not looking up to engage with other players.

Sorry to rip on it ... but any other deckbuilder has more on offer at this point, IMHO of course.

[Crunchy]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mezmorki:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crunchy Gremlin:

that said my favorite card game after MtG is Dominion. Ascension was fun but dominion... was awesome. Now there are so many deckbuilders out there. Dominion though was damn good. IMHO and not a collectible.

I'm an unabashed Dominion hater. The game was hugely influential and important as the first big Deckbuilding game. But I would play ANY other deckbuilding game before dominion. Why?

First of all, dominion is a painfully dry and unexciting game thematically. That doesn't bother some people, but I'd prefer something more engaging and imaginative. Second, the game basically asks you to stare at the menu of the 10 cards on offer for an inordinately long period of time and come up with a strategy for how you want ot sequence your card purchases. Then you get to execute the plan (sounds good so far). But then each turn becomes its own puzzle to optimize your hand and card play .... and it just takes way to freaking long for how much depth I get out of it. Plus the interaction is very indirect. 95% of the game time is spent staring at your hand of cards, not looking up to engage with other players.

Sorry to rip on it ... but any other deckbuilder has more on offer at this point, IMHO of course.

Hrmm. No i think that is fair. At the time of its release it was a basically a new idea an really exciting. Yeah there are better ones now i think. I dont like ascension much. nor star realms.
I played a lot of them. The strategy in dominion was way deeper but it often had the feeling of multiplayer solitaire due its lack of player interactivity which is honestly a common issue in board games IMHO but felt pretty strongly in dominion.

Some of the deckbuilders i have played in the last couple of years were pretty good and there are way more than i have played.

[Tragic]

4x Games I own and play....

Twilight Imperim
Forbidden Stars
Exodus - Proxima Centauri (1st expansion fix require)
Hegemonic
Impulse
Eclipse
Dominant Species (one of my favourite games!)
Empires of the Void
Clash of cultures
Space Empires
Supernova

And these are just the ones I own and play.

There are plenty of other games like "Shogun" and the like which are very close to 4x but more strategy games.

I can not see how anyone can think Race for the Galaxy is a 4x game though.

@Crunchy Gremlin

If you like Dominion try "Eminent Domain" (1st expansion needed) it is a deck builder with a cool 4x theme and imo a pretty good one. As it is a deck builder it has the same basic mechanisms as Dominion.

[Tragic]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von screamingpalm:

Hey Mez, what are the more complex card games that you would recommend? I spent way too much money on MtG back in the early 2000's and lagged behind the powercreep in Hearthstone because I wasn't going to support predatory models anymore. I like those types of games, but not enough to sink a pile o' money into.

Probably the most complex card game out at the moment is the reprint of Deadlands called "Doomtown : Reloaded". It has the most complex deck building of any game and the Deadlands elements that lead to a kind of area control make it very unique among card games. It is rules intensive but a VERY VERY good games.

For a more traditional kind of card game look to the LCGs. There are a number of good games there. Call of Cthulhu you may remember form the 90s. It is now a dead LCG, as in the entire card pool is released and no more new cards, but this is seriously one of the best card games ever made. If you and your mates are into it, it is still worth it.

Another classic 90s game remake is Netrunner -> Android Netrunner. This is a Richard Garfield game (the guy that made MTG) and is probably one of the most popular modern card games around so it is the easiest to find random opponents. The theme is excellent and the bluffing aspect I have only seen in this and Spycraft. (spycraft is still waiting for a revival unfortunately).

Currently I mainly play Doomtown and Conquest (Warhammer 40K Conquest). Also Legend of the 5 Realms is getting reprinted as a LCG soon as well, so if you like fantasy Japanese samurai stuff then you will be very happy.

https://www.alderac.com/doomtown/
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/category/living-card-games

The problem with deck construction games (deck builders stole out name!) is that you need people to play with that are into it as much as you. Unless you have people who also buy it and build new decks and stuff you end up with a lot of cards on the shelf doing nothing.

[Gwydion]

There are so many amazing board games out there right now. For anyone who misses the old days of video gaming, where everything felt fresh and different and it wasn't just the same idea done over and over with a higher number slapped next to it, board games are a great place to be right now.

Not everything will be your cup of tea but that's LIFE. I can almost guarantee you'll find something that suits your fancy from huge, expansive multi-hour epics to little-box five minute matchups, it's a great scene.

I'd write more, but I'm actually planning for my board game day tomorrow. :-D On deck (pun intended), X-Wing Minis, Hyperborea, Lords of Waterdeep and Blue Moon Legends.

Good times!

[Tragic]

I really like Hyperborea... play that one!

[screamingpalm]

Wow.. thanks for the replies, awesome! Some of those boardgames sound interesting, plenty for me to check out.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crunchy Gremlin:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Drefk2000:

Empires in arms, the boardgame to rule them all. I still play twice a month with 6 friends. It never gets boring..

have played the pc version? is it any good?
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/285/details/Empires.in.Arms

I have- though it has been ages ago now. I thought it was decent, but man did that game have issues at launch and long after. No idea what shape it is in now, as to the dev's credit, he was determined to fix it up properly and supported it for a long time. I never played the boardgame of it to compare though.

[Melodic Death]

Axis and Allies is my all time favorite.

Small World anybody? Great strategy boardgame and they made a steam version of it too. My local gameboard shop runs Small World tournaments every month, super fun to play. It's almost like risk but in a fantasy setting. If anyone owns the steam version and wants to play, hit me up.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/235620/