Leviticus 20:13 mistranslation

[Kazo]

Many atheists and gays keep saying that Leviticus 20:13 is mistranslated and the verse isnt talking about homosexuality but is talking about a man and a boy, I was just wondering on what you guys think of the claim and was curious if there even is any evidence backing this up.

[[H.E.] ✟ GrandEmperorVandheer ✟]

It's still a capital offense.

[Theophilus]

It only takes a quick examination of the 3 primary words in that verse to thoroughly prove it is not mistranslated at all. Not in the KJV, at least.

"Man," "Lie," and "Mankind."

First, the Hebrew word used for "Man" in Leviticus 20:13 is H376 (of Strong's concordance of the KJV.) H376 is the most common word used for "Man" in the entire Old Testament by a massive margin, with the second most common word for "Man" being H120.

There is no room for mistranslation there.

Second, the Hebrew word used for "Lie" in Leviticus 20:13 is H7901 (of Strong's concordance of the KJV.) According to Strong's concordance, H7901 is used to mean to "Lie down" (or, as modern language would say, "Lay down") in a variety of ways (such as in rest, sleep, decease, or sexual connection.)

However, in every instance in the Old Testament when the word "Lie" is used in connection to a clearly sexual context (example: Genesis 19:32 and 34) it is always using H7901.

Therefore, if we can ascertain that the context of Leviticus 20:13 is of the like, then we can prove that it is infact referring to intercourse; which we can infact prove if we look at the previous 3 verses, and the following 8 verses: The context is clearly sexual, which means that "Lie" in Leviticus 20:13 is referring to sexual intercourse.

There is no room for mistranslation there.

Finally, the Hebrew word used for "Mankind" in Leviticus 20:13 is H2145 (of Strong's concordance of the KJV.) "Mankind" is only used twice in the entire Bible, both times using H2145. H2145 is also overwhelmingly the word used for all instances of the word "Male" in the Old Testament, with only a mere 8 outliers. Therefore, the word "Mankind" means "Male."

There is no room for mistranslation there.

The result is this: If a MAN (literally a man, any man) also LIE (in this clearly defined context, have sexual intercourse) with MANKIND, (meaning a male) as he lyeth with a woman, ("Lyeth" uses a different word than H7901 but is clearly being used as a past tense and/or an action of H7901 in this verse) both of them have committed an abomination...

Full stop. I don't even have to finish the verse at this point, or explain how the word "Abomination" has a bad, wicked, evil connotation.

The conclusion is clear: There is absolutely NO mistranslation of Leviticus 20:13 at all whatsoever. Period.

Why is this all important? Why did I write this extensive and sharp reply? Because not only are unbelievers saying this, but there are even wolves in our flock that would say the same thing. It is important for us Christians to stand for what is righteous, and good in The Lord our God's sight. There is no room for compromise here, Leviticus 20:13 is clearly talking about homosexuality.

Flee fornication: Every sin that a man doeth, is without the body: but he that committeth fornication, sinneth against his own body.
What, know ye not that your body is the Temple of The Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

- First Corinthians 6:18-20 [KJV]

[Gray Matter Guerrilla]

What Theophilus said
I don't think I could add anything else other than this is an attempt by individuals (in this case, homosexuals) to make the Bible conform to their worldly views.
Sexual sin can be committed by anyone though, not just homosexuals, but they seem to think the Bible (or God) is 'picking on them' and feel the need to change the Word.

[󠀡󠀡]

Originally posted by Gray Matter Guerrilla:

What Theophilus said
I don't think I could add anything else other than this is an attempt by individuals (in this case, homosexuals) to make the Bible conform to their worldly views.
Sexual sin can be committed by anyone though, not just homosexuals, but they seem to think the Bible (or God) is 'picking on them' and feel the need to change the Word.

It's rather interesting that some atheists would be concerned about this passage. If they don't believe, then why worry? Maybe it's because deep within they know God is real, but would rather prefer to live in sin and disobedience.

Romans 1:19-21
King James Version
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

[Quasar]

Originally posted by Theophilus:

It only takes a quick examination of the 3 primary words in that verse to thoroughly prove it is not mistranslated at all. Not in the KJV, at least.

"Man," "Lie," and "Mankind."

First, the Hebrew word used for "Man" in Leviticus 20:13 is H376 (of Strong's concordance of the KJV.) H376 is the most common word used for "Man" in the entire Old Testament by a massive margin, with the second most common word for "Man" being H120.

There is no room for mistranslation there.

Second, the Hebrew word used for "Lie" in Leviticus 20:13 is H7901 (of Strong's concordance of the KJV.) According to Strong's concordance, H7901 is used to mean to "Lie down" (or, as modern language would say, "Lay down") in a variety of ways (such as in rest, sleep, decease, or sexual connection.)

However, in every instance in the Old Testament when the word "Lie" is used in connection to a clearly sexual context (example: Genesis 19:32 and 34) it is always using H7901.

Therefore, if we can ascertain that the context of Leviticus 20:13 is of the like, then we can prove that it is infact referring to intercourse; which we can infact prove if we look at the previous 3 verses, and the following 8 verses: The context is clearly sexual, which means that "Lie" in Leviticus 20:13 is referring to sexual intercourse.

There is no room for mistranslation there.

Finally, the Hebrew word used for "Mankind" in Leviticus 20:13 is H2145 (of Strong's concordance of the KJV.) "Mankind" is only used twice in the entire Bible, both times using H2145. H2145 is also overwhelmingly the word used for all instances of the word "Male" in the Old Testament, with only a mere 8 outliers. Therefore, the word "Mankind" means "Male."

There is no room for mistranslation there.

The result is this: If a MAN (literally a man, any man) also LIE (in this clearly defined context, have sexual intercourse) with MANKIND, (meaning a male) as he lyeth with a woman, ("Lyeth" uses a different word than H7901 but is clearly being used as a past tense and/or an action of H7901 in this verse) both of them have committed an abomination...

Full stop. I don't even have to finish the verse at this point, or explain how the word "Abomination" has a bad, wicked, evil connotation.

The conclusion is clear: There is absolutely NO mistranslation of Leviticus 20:13 at all whatsoever. Period.

Why is this all important? Why did I write this extensive and sharp reply? Because not only are unbelievers saying this, but there are even wolves in our flock that would say the same thing. It is important for us Christians to stand for what is righteous, and good in The Lord our God's sight. There is no room for compromise here, Leviticus 20:13 is clearly talking about homosexuality.

Flee fornication: Every sin that a man doeth, is without the body: but he that committeth fornication, sinneth against his own body.
What, know ye not that your body is the Temple of The Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

- First Corinthians 6:18-20 [KJV] :faithgoldcrux:

Homosexuality/Sexual Immorality/Fornication is a sin full stop. Watching any pornography is a sin, touching yourself, all of these are sins. Pornography causes confusion, and if one doesn't repent from it, before death, then it's hell.

[Gray Matter Guerrilla]

Originally posted by 󠀡󠀡:

Originally posted by Gray Matter Guerrilla:

What Theophilus said
I don't think I could add anything else other than this is an attempt by individuals (in this case, homosexuals) to make the Bible conform to their worldly views.
Sexual sin can be committed by anyone though, not just homosexuals, but they seem to think the Bible (or God) is 'picking on them' and feel the need to change the Word.

It's rather interesting that some atheists would be concerned about this passage. If they don't believe, then why worry? Maybe it's because deep within they know God is real, but would rather prefer to live in sin and disobedience.

Romans 1:19-21
King James Version
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Spot on.

[Theophilus]

Originally posted by Dedo Dewalker:

Homosexuality/Sexual Immorality/Fornication is a sin full stop. Watching any pornography is a sin, touching yourself, all of these are sins. Pornography causes confusion, and if one doesn't repent from it, before death, then it's hell.

Erm... That sounds a wee bit legalistic to me. Our good behavior isn't what gets us into heaven, it's our faith in Jesus Christ that saves us. (Plus, not to split hairs here or anything, but "touching yourself" isn't technically a sin, unless you covet, or else how would anyone use a urinal?)

Also, I'm not sure you are using the Biblical usage of the word "repent." Nobody can be without sin, except Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Sandra ✧✞°•]

Originally posted by Theophilus:

Originally posted by Dedo Dewalker:

Homosexuality/Sexual Immorality/Fornication is a sin full stop. Watching any pornography is a sin, touching yourself, all of these are sins. Pornography causes confusion, and if one doesn't repent from it, before death, then it's hell.

Erm... That sounds a wee bit legalistic to me. Our good behavior isn't what gets us into heaven, it's our faith in Jesus Christ that saves us. (Plus, not to split hairs here or anything, but "touching yourself" isn't technically a sin, unless you covet, or else how would anyone use a urinal?)

Also, I'm not sure you are using the Biblical usage of the word "repent." Nobody can be without sin, except Jesus Christ our Lord. :faithgoldcrux:

True repentance always result in a change of behavior. It is impossible to place faith in Jesus Christ without first changing our mind about our sin and who Jesus Christ is and what He has done for us. And yes, "touching yourself" is a sin, it is sexual immorality, for it seeks self pleasure which is the opposite of self denial, it does not glorify God since it goes against God's design within the framework of marriage between a man and a woman. (Mark 10:8; Ephesians 5:3)

When we are saved, we are called to a life of holiness and becoming more like Christ (2 Corinthians 7:1; 1 Peter 1:15-16). The message has always been the same throughout Scripture: Be Holy for I am Holy. When we become God's children we are set apart from the rest of the world. If we claim to be without sin, we lie and we make Him a liar (1 John 1:8). The difference is that once we are saved, we will now be at war with our sin. And that is an ongoing battle. The desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh (Galatians 5:17). If anyone claims to be in Christ, while they willingy continue to live in sin, without repentance, without godly sorrow over it, this alone is evidence they were never born again and that they are self deceived. You can't be in two kingdoms at the same time. Only those who are born again, born of the Spirit, will enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

[󠀡󠀡]

Originally posted by Sandra ✧✞°•:

Originally posted by Theophilus:

Erm... That sounds a wee bit legalistic to me. Our good behavior isn't what gets us into heaven, it's our faith in Jesus Christ that saves us. (Plus, not to split hairs here or anything, but "touching yourself" isn't technically a sin, unless you covet, or else how would anyone use a urinal?)

Also, I'm not sure you are using the Biblical usage of the word "repent." Nobody can be without sin, except Jesus Christ our Lord. :faithgoldcrux:

True repentance always result in a change of behavior. It is impossible to place faith in Jesus Christ without first changing our mind about our sin and who Jesus Christ is and what He has done for us. And yes, "touching yourself" is a sin, it is sexual immorality, for it seeks self pleasure which is the opposite of self denial, it does not glorify God since it goes against God's design within the framework of marriage between a man and a woman. (Mark 10:8; Ephesians 5:3)

When we are saved, we are called to a life of holiness and becoming more like Christ (2 Corinthians 7:1; 1 Peter 1:15-16). The message has always been the same throughout Scripture: Be Holy for I am Holy. When we become God's children we are set apart from the rest of the world. If we claim to be without sin, we lie and we make Him a liar (1 John 1:8). The difference is that once we are saved, we will now be at war with our sin. And that is an ongoing battle. The desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh (Galatians 5:17). If anyone claims to be in Christ, while they willingy continue to live in sin, without repentance, without godly sorrow over it, this alone is evidence they were never born again and that they are self deceived. You can't be in two kingdoms at the same time. Only those who are born again, born of the Spirit, will enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

He meant "touching yourself" as in peeing while standing up, which is why he said "unless you covet", which has a sexual connotation to it. He was by no means implying that masturbation isn't a sin.

[Sandra ✧✞°•]

Originally posted by 󠀡󠀡:

Originally posted by Sandra ✧✞°•:

True repentance always result in a change of behavior. It is impossible to place faith in Jesus Christ without first changing our mind about our sin and who Jesus Christ is and what He has done for us. And yes, "touching yourself" is a sin, it is sexual immorality, for it seeks self pleasure which is the opposite of self denial, it does not glorify God since it goes against God's design within the framework of marriage between a man and a woman. (Mark 10:8; Ephesians 5:3)

When we are saved, we are called to a life of holiness and becoming more like Christ (2 Corinthians 7:1; 1 Peter 1:15-16). The message has always been the same throughout Scripture: Be Holy for I am Holy. When we become God's children we are set apart from the rest of the world. If we claim to be without sin, we lie and we make Him a liar (1 John 1:8). The difference is that once we are saved, we will now be at war with our sin. And that is an ongoing battle. The desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh (Galatians 5:17). If anyone claims to be in Christ, while they willingy continue to live in sin, without repentance, without godly sorrow over it, this alone is evidence they were never born again and that they are self deceived. You can't be in two kingdoms at the same time. Only those who are born again, born of the Spirit, will enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

He meant "touching yourself" as in peeing while standing up, which is why he said "unless you covet", which has a sexual connotation to it. He was by no means implying that masturbation isn't a sin.

CONTEXT: It is very clear what Dedo refered to when mentioning "touching yourself". To then claim it is technically not sin because of urinating are just silly word games. We all know what is meant here. My response was to that since many Christians still defend masturbation as being not a big deal.

Originally posted by Dedo Dewalker:

Homosexuality/Sexual Immorality/Fornication is a sin full stop. Watching any pornography is a sin, touching yourself, all of these are sins. Pornography causes confusion, and if one doesn't repent from it, before death, then it's hell.

[Theophilus]

Originally posted by Sandra ✧✞°•:

CONTEXT: It is very clear what Dedo refered to when mentioning "touching yourself". To then claim it is technically not sin because of urinating are just silly word games. We all know what is meant here. My response was to that since many Christians still defend masturbation as being not a big deal.

Originally posted by Dedo Dewalker:

Homosexuality/Sexual Immorality/Fornication is a sin full stop. Watching any pornography is a sin, touching yourself, all of these are sins. Pornography causes confusion, and if one doesn't repent from it, before death, then it's hell.

More context: Sin is transgression of The Law (First John 3:4.)
The Law doesn't forbid specific manipulations of one's own genitalia.
The Law does forbid coveting, it's literally the 10th commandment.
Conclusion: The action of masturbation itself isn't the sin, the motive for doing it is.

That was the point I was making. Plain and simple. I dare anyone to read ^this^ and say that I'm promoting sin, go ahead, because I am NOT.

Also, your reply to me sounded like a bit of concealed legalism, especially the latter half when it almost seemed like you should judge a person's salvation based on how much fruit you perceive. Yes, we as Christians bare fruit, but are you the standard setter for what fruits we should bare? No, I don't think so.

[Sandra ✧✞°•]

Originally posted by Theophilus:

Originally posted by Sandra ✧✞°•:

CONTEXT: It is very clear what Dedo refered to when mentioning "touching yourself". To then claim it is technically not sin because of urinating is just silly. We all know what is meant here.

More context: Sin is transgression of The Law (First John 3:4.)
The Law doesn't forbid specific manipulations of ones own genitalia.
The Law does forbid coveting, it's literally the 10th commandment.
Conclusion: The action of masturbation itself isn't the sin, the motive for doing it is.

That was the point I was making.

Also, your reply to me sounded like a bit of concealed legalism, especially the latter half when it almost seemed like you should judge a persons salvation based on how much fruit you perceive. Yes, we as Christians bare fruit, but are you a standard setter for what fruits we should bare? No, I don't think so.

God's Word is our authority. He gave the standard. Tell me where I said anything that is unbiblical in my response.

[Theophilus]

Originally posted by Sandra ✧✞°•:

God's Word is our authority. He gave the standard. Tell me where I said anything that is unbiblical in my response.

In your previous reply, you added to God's Word by saying something is a sin when it is not. Read my previous reply closely. Very closely.

And the latter half of your first reply to me is, I will say again: "sounded like a bit of concealed legalism, especially the latter half when it almost seemed like you should judge a person's salvation based on how much fruit you perceive."

I didn't want to split hairs in my reply to @Dedo Dewalker, but the hair I did split was the wrong one I guess.

[Sandra ✧✞°•]

Originally posted by Theophilus:

Originally posted by Sandra ✧✞°•:

God's Word is our authority. He gave the standard. Tell me where I said anything that is unbiblical in my response.

In your previous reply, you added to God's Word by saying something is a sin when it is not. Read my previous reply closely. Very closely.

And the latter half of your first reply to me is, I will say again: "sounded like a bit of concealed legalism, especially the latter half when it almost seemed like you should judge a person's salvation based on how much fruit you perceive."

Masturbation is a sin. We all know what it is and that it are works of the flesh. I responded to Dedo's context of "touching ourselves" which we all know is masturbation.

I have not been adding to God's Word, that is a serious accusation. Everything I said comes directly from Scripture. His Word is our authority in everything and we are to be holy in all our conduct. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). That is not legalism. We are called to walk according to the Spirit and no longer according to the flesh. And we will know them by their fruits.

Biblical repentance always result in a change of behavior. That is the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a work of God. It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ without first changing your mind about your sin and about who Jesus is and what He has done (2 Corinthians 7:10). Repentance is necessary so that we are no longer slaves of sin but become servants of righteousness (Romans 6:17-18).

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

People love their sin and will defend it or minimize it at all cost. I am not here to please man, I am here to please God. And I'll leave it at that.

[Theophilus]

Originally posted by Sandra ✧✞°•:

Masturbation is a sin. We all know what it is and that it are works of the flesh. I responded to Dedo's context of "touching ourselves" which we all know is masturbation.

I have not been adding to God's Word, that is a serious accusation. Everything I said comes directly from Scripture. His Word is our authority in everything and we are to be holy in all our conduct. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). That is not legalism. We are called to walk according to the Spirit and no longer according to the flesh. And we will know them by their fruits.

Biblical repentance always result in a change of behavior. That is the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a work of God. It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ without first changing your mind about your sin and about who Jesus is and what He has done (2 Corinthians 7:10). Repentance is necessary so that we are no longer slaves of sin but become servants of righteousness (Romans 6:17-18).

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

People love their sin and will defend it or minimize it at all cost. I am not here to please man, I am here to please God. And I'll leave it at that.

Did you read my first reply to you? Did you?

I commend your zeal, but I believe you have the wrong idea of what I was saying. Even the nameless guy knew that I wasn't promoting sin, and he really really dislikes me, so that's saying something!

I know I made an accusation against you, but I stand by it and I explained why, but you have not addressed it at all. Believe me, I would retract what I said against you in a heartbeat if you would address my second response to you properly. I'm not unreasonable and I know about what The Bible says about repentance, faith, fruits, walking in The Spirit, righteousness, etc.

*Sigh*, I split 1 single hair and then I get crucified by the zealots, Lord Jesus have mercy on me.
I'm not here to cause divisions, I only want peace.