Thoughts on evil dialog choices in games

[ReadyToPlay]

Many games offer "evil" dialog choices during conversations, notably in many RPGs like Baldur's Gate 3, Witcher 3, Fallout 4, etc. But what annoys me is that many of the so-called evil choices are just PETTY, pissy, snappy remarks that a young child, a grown-up in a bad mood, or even a good person would say once in a while: "Get out of my face!", "Oh, I don't wanna hear your sob stories!", "You mean a smart detective like you have no leads?" I'm not sure if they qualify as evil. Yet, most of the times these are the dialog choices we get. I just don't think we, or even game developers, know what "evil" really means. Think what Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer would say. They would probably be quite "polite" outwardly, but say creepy things like, "I don't know why people want to be friends; I don't understand how people are attracted to one another." Maybe we just use the word "evil" a little too loosely, and/or we just don't understand evil mindsets, since most of us aren't experts in psychology.

[Aachen]

Petty, short-sighted evil is one of those fun-in-a-hammy-way options.

[Lady of the Lake]

These are evil choices, not of height of the evil of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, but they are still evil. What if there would be an "evil meter", where in RPG game a player has an option to be polite and cruel at the same time? The game industry would had to implement new PEGI requirement of psychological violence for people aged 23-25.

I like sometimes to do an evil playthrough, a very cruel one, if game doesn't give me an option to be sadistically Hannibal-esq psychopatically insane, I'm gonna use gameplay part to do that, and if I can't then I'll use the mods. Boy I remember killing so many innocent people in Witcher 1 where there is no evil options, manipulating people around into horrible situations, actually I make it sound like it was really viable, it's more of a imagination play during the playtime.

[nullable]

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

Many games offer "evil" dialog choices during conversations, notably in many RPGs like Baldur's Gate 3, Witcher 3, Fallout 4, etc. But what annoys me is that many of the so-called evil choices are just PETTY, pissy, snappy remarks that a young child, a grown-up in a bad mood, or even a good person would say once in a while: "Get out of my face!", "Oh, I don't wanna hear your sob stories!", "You mean a smart detective like you have no leads?" I'm not sure if they qualify as evil. Yet, most of the times these are the dialog choices we get. I just don't think we, or even game developers, know what "evil" really means. Think what Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer would say. They would probably be quite "polite" outwardly, but say creepy things like, "I don't know why people want to be friends; I don't understand how people are attracted to one another." Maybe we just use the word "evil" a little too loosely, and/or we just don't understand evil mindsets, since most of us aren't experts in psychology.

Well not every interaction involves opportunities for world shattering villainy. Also I think your idea of evil itself might be a little too single minded. You look for caricatures of people you think are evil and think "evil" as a game concept should revolve around that? Not a lot of room for subtly there and all the different ways evil can manifest and be presented. Evil is a spectrum, it's a perspective, it's a perception.

In short kinda seems like you don't really get it either. Or at least it seems that like beauty, evil is in the eye of the beholder.

[ReadyToPlay]

nullable님이 먼저 게시:

Well not every interaction involves opportunities for world shattering villainy. Also I think your idea of evil itself might be a little too single minded. You look for caricatures of people you think are evil and think "evil" as a game concept should revolve around that? Not a lot of room for subtly there and all the different ways evil can manifest and be presented. Evil is a spectrum, it's a perspective, it's a perception.

In short kinda seems like you don't really get it either. Or at least it seems that like beauty, evil is in the eye of the beholder.

I look for realism, not caricatures, in depictions of evil. My point was mainly about the simplistic ways games tend to depict good and evil. Name me any game titles that do as good a job in that regard as works from other art forms, like film, TV, and literature. You likely can't come up with any games. But I can easily name several films, novels, etc. that depict evil in profound and memorable ways. If you are exposed to those other art forms, you will surely notice this. And if you aren't, then you are the one who doesn't get it buddy.

Video game is a great medium, but it still lacks in many crucial areas, such as storytelling, compared to other traditional media. Where is the video game equivalent of classic films like Citizen Kane, In Cold Blood, 12 Angry Men, and on and on? Other media like film and literature have areas that video games simply can't touch. If you can't even do storytelling in an adequate manner, of course you can't depict evil adequately.

[Amaterasu]

I do agree that morality systems in video games are too binary, because either you're Jesus ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Christ or you're so evil even Satan tells you to calm down.

[sfnhltb]

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

Video game is a great medium, but it still lacks in many crucial areas, such as storytelling, compared to other traditional media. Where is the video game equivalent of classic films like Citizen Kane, In Cold Blood, 12 Angry Men, and on and on? Other media like film and literature have areas that video games simply can't touch. If you can't even do storytelling in an adequate manner, of course you can't depict evil adequately.

Movies shouldn't try to be great books. Books shouldn't try to be great paintings. Games shouldn't try to ape movies or books, they should be great games - i.e. gameplay should be the main aspect of why a game is great. Making extremely drawn out movies with lots of repetitive scenes fighting similar enemies over and over in between movie sequences with no gameplay is never going to create "great" anything.

There are plenty of great games, just none of them are going to be the typical AAA first/third person 5 minutes of a B movie, then 20 minutes of button mashing to earn the next 5 minutes of the B movie, and repeat for 10+ hours to get through what would be a normal length movie without the padding doing it as a game seems to require.

[ReadyToPlay]

sfnhltb님이 먼저 게시:

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

Video game is a great medium, but it still lacks in many crucial areas, such as storytelling, compared to other traditional media. Where is the video game equivalent of classic films like Citizen Kane, In Cold Blood, 12 Angry Men, and on and on? Other media like film and literature have areas that video games simply can't touch. If you can't even do storytelling in an adequate manner, of course you can't depict evil adequately.

Movies shouldn't try to be great books. Books shouldn't try to be great paintings. Games shouldn't try to ape movies or books, they should be great games - i.e. gameplay should be the main aspect of why a game is great. Making extremely drawn out movies with lots of repetitive scenes fighting similar enemies over and over in between movie sequences with no gameplay is never going to create "great" anything.

There are plenty of great games, just none of them are going to be the typical AAA first/third person 5 minutes of a B movie, then 20 minutes of button mashing to earn the next 5 minutes of the B movie, and repeat for 10+ hours to get through what would be a normal length movie without the padding doing it as a game seems to require.

Games do indeed try to be a great storytelling medium nowadays. That wasn't the case in the past, but nowadays, many game developers do believe games rival other media like film or literature as a storytelling medium to be reckon with. I have video proof of a developer saying that (if I can remember which video). My answer to such assertions is: what are you smoking? The evidence is in the pudding, buddies. Where is the Citizen Kane of games, War and Peace of games, Hamlet of games, Parasite (2019 Korean film that won best picture) of games, etc.? You can't "rival" other media when there are tons of storylines, themes, etc. that video games simply can't do.

To your other point about the interactivity of games, that just proves my point. The requirement of having interaction in a game puts a (hard) limit on what kinds of stories a video game can tell. That's why many games tell action and horror stories, because those stories parlay well into gameplay interaction. But many others don't.

[Lithurge]

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

To your other point about the interactivity of games, that just proves my point. The requirement of having interaction in a game puts a (hard) limit on what kinds of stories a video game can tell. That's why many games tell action and horror stories, because those stories parlay well into gameplay interaction. But many others don't.

Actually that's just saying that only certain types of things are gameplay, anything outside of that isn't. Point and click adventures don't fall into the action category and are not limited to the horror genre. So presumably they aren't games to you.

[ReadyToPlay]

Lithurge님이 먼저 게시:

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

To your other point about the interactivity of games, that just proves my point. The requirement of having interaction in a game puts a (hard) limit on what kinds of stories a video game can tell. That's why many games tell action and horror stories, because those stories parlay well into gameplay interaction. But many others don't.

Actually that's just saying that only certain types of things are gameplay, anything outside of that isn't. Point and click adventures don't fall into the action category and are not limited to the horror genre. So presumably they aren't games to you.

Adventure games do have "action": looking for clues, solving puzzles, using inventory, etc. Action doesn't necessarily mean combat. Everything a player does is "action." In traditional media such as film and literature, the only action we do is just watch or read. A film can be entirely dialog-driven like 12 Angry Men or My Dinner with Andre, and it wouldn't interfere with us watching it. But a game composed entirely of dialog would be unthinkable, because it would seriously affect player interaction.

[nullable]

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

I look for realism, not caricatures, in depictions of evil. My point was mainly about the simplistic ways games tend to depict good and evil. Name me any game titles that do as good a job in that regard as works from other art forms, like film, TV, and literature. You likely can't come up with any games. But I can easily name several films, novels, etc. that depict evil in profound and memorable ways. If you are exposed to those other art forms, you will surely notice this. And if you aren't, then you are the one who doesn't get it buddy.

You make your biases clear with this. All this says to me is, "I haven't played to many games." Or, "I'm such a contrary nothing can satisfy me."

No one has to prove to you there's games with amazing stories, and realistic representations of every facet of the human condition. They exist, and your ignorance, blindness or denial of that isn't really an argument with any sort of weight.

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

Video game is a great medium, but it still lacks in many crucial areas, such as storytelling, compared to other traditional media. Where is the video game equivalent of classic films like Citizen Kane, In Cold Blood, 12 Angry Men, and on and on? Other media like film and literature have areas that video games simply can't touch. If you can't even do storytelling in an adequate manner, of course you can't depict evil adequately.

You like movies better than video games, that's not some failing that video games needs to address.

And you can appreciate the differences in the mediums right? Each one has some pros and cons for story telling. Either you can accept and appreciate the opportunities for variety, or you can't.

[ReadyToPlay]

nullable님이 먼저 게시:

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

I look for realism, not caricatures, in depictions of evil. My point was mainly about the simplistic ways games tend to depict good and evil. Name me any game titles that do as good a job in that regard as works from other art forms, like film, TV, and literature. You likely can't come up with any games. But I can easily name several films, novels, etc. that depict evil in profound and memorable ways. If you are exposed to those other art forms, you will surely notice this. And if you aren't, then you are the one who doesn't get it buddy.

You make your biases clear with this. All this says to me is, "I haven't played to many games." Or, "I'm such a contrary nothing can satisfy me."

ReadyToPlay님이 먼저 게시:

Video game is a great medium, but it still lacks in many crucial areas, such as storytelling, compared to other traditional media. Where is the video game equivalent of classic films like Citizen Kane, In Cold Blood, 12 Angry Men, and on and on? Other media like film and literature have areas that video games simply can't touch. If you can't even do storytelling in an adequate manner, of course you can't depict evil adequately.

You like movies better than video games, that's not some failing that video games needs to address.

And you can appreciate the differences in the mediums right? Each one has some pros and cons for story telling. Either you can accept and appreciate that or you can't.

Again, the evidence is in the pudding, buddy, and you just can't handle the truth. Show me the Citizen Kane of video games, Parasite of games, Downton Abbey of games, Schlinder's List of games, and on and on. If you say I'm biased, then SHOW ME. You can't, because there isn't a game that can tell those kinds of stories. And if there isn't, then it's not a bias, is it. It is a statement of fact. Come back when you have evidence. Otherwise you're just ranting incoherently.

Media have differences, but they also have shortcomings. If video games try to be a storytelling medium and there are stories they can't tell, such a shortcoming needs to be acknowledged.

[AustrAlien2010]

To my understanding, a pacifist game, (or pacifist run or play,) is about playing a game and undoing the least amount of live entities as possible. Of course not playing at all would accomplish this, but that's not what we're after, because a player has to play.


An interesting title for a pacifist run would be Half-Life or Left 4 Dead. Because a player might not pause many others if it wanted to. And instead could try to get around by other means, or let others harass each other and can leave a scene relatively unscathed, and in doing so, exposes a different story character, while the play continues to offer a challenge regardless.
A less suitable title would be Mass Effect. Because in Mass Effect, a player is almost always encouraged to unmake all opposing entities, because otherwise the story will not progress. And its also less suitable because doing nothing else than staying in cover would potentially make the game play more simple and less challenging.
Therefor we could argue that Half-Life is suitable, and Mass Effect is less suitable for this.






Are there more noteworthy titles that support or do not support (challenging) pacifist plays worth sharing?


We could argue:
Super Mario Bros = More suitable for a pacifistic approach.
House of the Dead = Less suitable for pacifistic play.


(Obviously, SMB doesn't support pure pacifist play, because Mario or Luigi occasionally may have to stop something, but the play potentially offers a more pacifistic character than HotD. Because in HotD, the player simpy has to shoot most of the time, in order to progress. And most of the time, objectively, there is no other alternative to that. As is the case with ME.)

[Garou]

More role play options to try is good for me

[AustrAlien2010]

There's quite a few games where the player simply has to kill, otherwise the story won't continue. (A door won't open or whatever, and the player cannot continue otherwise, and the door only opens when the player kills character “X.”)

That's always a bit lame. Because if the game is properly designed, it leaves room to escape.
Then you can play “good” or “evil.” But often game developers just create a situation where its: “kill him or her” or give up.

Figuring out which games allow you to be “evil” is not easy.

[TGC> The Games Collector]

I kinda find it annoying in some games how vague it is, and the results are just completely not what you'd expect.

"we need to do good thing to help these poor people"

dialog choices are "yes" or "nah".

But if you choose "nah" the protagonist goes "LET"S KILL THEM ALL AND TURN THEM INTO SOYLENT GREEN!!!!!"

Like, uhhhm, I just thought it would be "let's not give them any of our stuff"... lol