Numeric Rating System (1-10 / 0 -5)

[Snake4eva]

Hey community, i'm wondering what are your thoughts on Steam's binary rating system (Recommend or Not Recommend) and do you think a numeric rating system would be more useful? Also which rating would you prefer? 0 - 5 or 1 - 10 and why?

[DiceDsx]

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

Nguyên văn bởi DiceDsx:

Imho, it's both invalid and valid at the same time: invalid because everyone uses a different metric to evaluate a game, and valid because you can extrapolate information to help you choose if you should purchase or not.


You could. You could also write "It's a fantastic game, but it's still not my type of game, so it's not recommended by me."

The score doesn't add anything meaningful, it's all in the text.

So if you get a ton of "It's a fantastic game, but it's still not my type of game, so it's not recommended by me" and the ratings are only based on recommendations, the rating of the game is much lower, despite it being a fine game. We shouldn't want that.

There are also people posting "It's not my type of game, but I still recommend it", so it kinda evens out, but all of this doesn't matter.

The important part is the text, because you can learn a lot from that.

e.g. a not recommended whose reason is "It's too fast paced" it's a positive thing for people that want a fast paced game.

In the end, scores are meaningless.

[Snake4eva]

As TKOdarkshadow points out eloquently the issue at hand is as follows. A lot of people not recommending a game even though their review suggests that its a good game or vice versa. We as gamers shouldn't want a system to incorrectly hide a good game that has a lot of not recommended based on such minor nuances of the reviewer. There are multiple games on Steam that has 100k mixed reviews and people play on a regular basis and which are decent games but at a glance seem to be crap. When you actually read through the reviews you may find that one side, say the recommended camp highlights serious concerns which gives the game an overall positive score. While the not recommended camp sight a single recurring theme, like minor bugs, some of which has been updated which they use to pull down the score. Take again Cyberpunk, for the persons who site bugs as their major disapproval will they return and update their recommendations after the patch? Because in the modern era of gaming where things can be fixed after release is it fair to penalize a game for a feature that has been quickly fixed. Good games should stand out whether or not you recommend them. A game which gets 0 is dismal whether or not you recommend it and for whatever reason.

[DiceDsx]

Nguyên văn bởi Snake4eva:

The score highlights the quality of the game on the chosen numeric sale. The same comment you gave above could not be associated with a less than 5 out of 10, fantastic does not correspond to the appropriate numeric value. A 5/10 is average, below 5 is below average, 10 is perfect or almost perfect. You can write whatever you want in your review the point is on a numeric scale the illogical act of a mostly positive review with a low score highlights the inherent contradiction between the two. In a binary system any review logical or illogical be affixed to a recommend or not recommend. A number invites meaningful ratings along the scale.

Scores don't matter because everyone sees the same scale with a different value, like people using a 7 as either "mediocre" or "good" depending on who you ask.

Saying "the game is great, but it requires a lot of patching and messing with the files AND you still have some bugs, so I can't recommend it" it's not illogical.

You're trying to force ratings in a system that doesn't have them. It's like trying to put a squared block in a circle-shaped hole by forcefully changing the hole to a squared one.

[crunchyfrog]

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

No they're not. That's incredibly dishonest.

They're not the same thing because there's this little thing called TEXT. You know the ACTUAL review to back it up.

Uh, you're the person telling me there's no text in a review with a number attached to it though. I'm not sure why you seem to believe once you add a number system to it, all reviews will just magically lose the optional text-based part. :nonplussed_creep:

Nope, let me break it down for you.

The CURRENT system is a binary choice WITH a text review appended to it.

The OP Is making the point that isn't good enough and it needs to be replaced with a score.

THat's why I cut it down to it's bare minimum - to demonstrate that ON IT'S OWN, it doesn't serve the purpose wanted.

So, assuming you then took away the binary choice, and bunged this in, how does it fix anything? IT DOES NOT. At best it makes things more confusing.


I'm sorry you didn't understand the basic logic there. Hopefully you get it now.

[TKOdarkshadow]

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

Uh, you're the person telling me there's no text in a review with a number attached to it though. I'm not sure why you seem to believe once you add a number system to it, all reviews will just magically lose the optional text-based part.

Nope, let me break it down for you.

The CURRENT system is a binary choice WITH a text review appended to it.

The OP Is making the point that isn't good enough and it needs to be replaced with a score.

THat's why I cut it down to it's bare minimum - to demonstrate that ON IT'S OWN, it doesn't serve the purpose wanted.

So, assuming you then took away the binary choice, and bunged this in, how does it fix anything? IT DOES NOT. At best it makes things more confusing.


I'm sorry you didn't understand the basic logic there. Hopefully you get it now.

No need to be rude here, it'd just be nice to have more than what we got currently. We could have both, since people are complaining that numeric reviews may be too vague. AKA, numeric rating and recommendation.

[crunchyfrog]

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

Nope, let me break it down for you.

The CURRENT system is a binary choice WITH a text review appended to it.

The OP Is making the point that isn't good enough and it needs to be replaced with a score.

THat's why I cut it down to it's bare minimum - to demonstrate that ON IT'S OWN, it doesn't serve the purpose wanted.

So, assuming you then took away the binary choice, and bunged this in, how does it fix anything? IT DOES NOT. At best it makes things more confusing.


I'm sorry you didn't understand the basic logic there. Hopefully you get it now.

No need to be rude here, it'd just be nice to have more than what we got currently. We could have both, since people are complaining that numeric reviews may be too vague. AKA, numeric rating and recommendation. :gk1_skull:

I'm not being rude, I'm just blunt, so don't take offence.

The fact remains that it is OBJECTIVELY and FACTUALLY not helpful.

It is nice to have options, but this is shown to be not a benefit but as I showed, not even remotely solving the problem claimed.

So why would you want to replace it with something worse?

[TKOdarkshadow]

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

No need to be rude here, it'd just be nice to have more than what we got currently. We could have both, since people are complaining that numeric reviews may be too vague. AKA, numeric rating and recommendation.

I'm not being rude, I'm just blunt, so don't take offence.

The fact remains that it is OBJECTIVELY and FACTUALLY not helpful.

It is nice to have options, but this is shown to be not a benefit but as I showed, not even remotely solving the problem claimed.

So why would you want to replace it with something worse?

I dunno how it would make it worse at all, it'd just be a more in-depth review. And of course the numeric rating would affect the page's score. I'd like to use this...

Recommendation: Yes
Numeric Rating: 8/10
Text Review: This is a fantastic game, I love the way the dialogue is written, but the gunplay leaves a bit to be desired.

...rather than below, mainly because you only get a vague idea of the user's quality of the game.

Recommendation: Yes
Text Review: This is a fantastic game, I love the way the dialogue is written, but the gunplay leaves a bit to be desired.

[crunchyfrog]

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

I'm not being rude, I'm just blunt, so don't take offence.

The fact remains that it is OBJECTIVELY and FACTUALLY not helpful.

It is nice to have options, but this is shown to be not a benefit but as I showed, not even remotely solving the problem claimed.

So why would you want to replace it with something worse?

I dunno how it would make it worse at all, it'd just be a more in-depth review. And of course the numeric rating would affect the page's score. I'd like to use this...

Recommendation: Yes
Numeric Rating: 8/10
Text Review: This is a fantastic game, I love the way the dialogue is written, but the gunplay leaves a bit to be desired.

...rather than below, mainly because you only get a vague idea of the user's quality of the game. :lunar2019deadpanpig:

Recommendation: Yes
Text Review: This is a fantastic game, I love the way the dialogue is written, but the gunplay leaves a bit to be desired.

Then let me demonstrate quite easily.

The current system is set thus to show whether you would recommend it or not - ultimately that's the purest form of review. If you want details, you can then read further and see if you agree.


But the addition of a score and a removal of the binary approach means you end up with a system that I've already spoken of.


YOu would look at two games and see 7 out of 10 on both of them, say. One is a great triple A publisher rushing a game, lacking polish and bringing the game down. The other is a small studio doign a more generic or lesser game, but polished well.

So your first look would be to see that score - that offers you NO information of use. Going into the review will get your better information, but the point is that that it is NOT an improvement of the binary system.

It could be that both those games could be recommended, or one not and the other yes, but the point is that it offers MORE usable information than a score. Simply because it's binary - it's buy or don't buy. A 7 tells you nothing about whether you should buy or not.


That's the point. It boils down to it not being any improvement over what is currently offered.

[TKOdarkshadow]

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

I dunno how it would make it worse at all, it'd just be a more in-depth review. And of course the numeric rating would affect the page's score. I'd like to use this...

Recommendation: Yes
Numeric Rating: 8/10
Text Review: This is a fantastic game, I love the way the dialogue is written, but the gunplay leaves a bit to be desired.

...rather than below, mainly because you only get a vague idea of the user's quality of the game.

Recommendation: Yes
Text Review: This is a fantastic game, I love the way the dialogue is written, but the gunplay leaves a bit to be desired.

Then let me demonstrate quite easily.

The current system is set thus to show whether you would recommend it or not - ultimately that's the purest form of review. If you want details, you can then read further and see if you agree.


But the addition of a score and a removal of the binary approach means you end up with a system that I've already spoken of.


YOu would look at two games and see 7 out of 10 on both of them, say. One is a great triple A publisher rushing a game, lacking polish and bringing the game down. The other is a small studio doign a more generic or lesser game, but polished well.

So your first look would be to see that score - that offers you NO information of use. Going into the review will get your better information, but the point is that that it is NOT an improvement of the binary system.

It could be that both those games could be recommended, or one not and the other yes, but the point is that it offers MORE usable information than a score. Simply because it's binary - it's buy or don't buy. A 7 tells you nothing about whether you should buy or not.


That's the point. It boils down to it not being any improvement over what is currently offered.

I've already said we could have both a numeric rating and a recommendation system in one review.

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

I still don't see what the issue is with allowing for extra info from the reviewer. If someone considers a 3/10 to be God-tier and recommend it, that's up to them. If you wanna ask Steam to slap on some adjectives to the numbers, that's alright as well.
Example: 7-Good, 8-Very Good, 9-Great, 10-Perfect

I can understand if you don't want OP's change, I'm not offering that. I'm offering having the two systems working together in one review.

[crunchyfrog]

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

Then let me demonstrate quite easily.

The current system is set thus to show whether you would recommend it or not - ultimately that's the purest form of review. If you want details, you can then read further and see if you agree.


But the addition of a score and a removal of the binary approach means you end up with a system that I've already spoken of.


YOu would look at two games and see 7 out of 10 on both of them, say. One is a great triple A publisher rushing a game, lacking polish and bringing the game down. The other is a small studio doign a more generic or lesser game, but polished well.

So your first look would be to see that score - that offers you NO information of use. Going into the review will get your better information, but the point is that that it is NOT an improvement of the binary system.

It could be that both those games could be recommended, or one not and the other yes, but the point is that it offers MORE usable information than a score. Simply because it's binary - it's buy or don't buy. A 7 tells you nothing about whether you should buy or not.


That's the point. It boils down to it not being any improvement over what is currently offered.

I've already said we could have both a numeric rating and a recommendation system in one review.

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

I still don't see what the issue is with allowing for extra info from the reviewer. If someone considers a 3/10 to be God-tier and recommend it, that's up to them. If you wanna ask Steam to slap on some adjectives to the numbers, that's alright as well. :lunar2019piginablanket:
Example: 7-Good, 8-Very Good, 9-Great, 10-Perfect

I can understand if you don't want OP's change, I'm not offering that. I'm offering having the two systems working together in one review. :calm_creep:

In that case, having both would OBVIOUSLY be confusing. BY inclusion that alone makes it confusing.

Becuase now you're adding something demonstrably no better and adding MORE information to the user.


I work at a major music festival in Britain. It's massive. We have over 1000 acts over the course of the long weekend. More than 26 stages. Obviously we WILL get people coming up to us asking the question "where is x stage?"

Now, we COULD offer a really clear and concise response how to get there, but we WILL get to see that person in about 5 minutes time going the other way.

Because keeping it simple when conveying info is PARAMOUNT.

So do you know what we do and why it works?
"THat direction, x minutes" and point.

Adding MORE just confuises things.


And it's not a matter of SUBJECTIVE option - whether I want it.

I'm pointing out it's OBJECTIVELY not solving the problem. It ain't opinion.

[TKOdarkshadow]

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

I've already said we could have both a numeric rating and a recommendation system in one review.


I can understand if you don't want OP's change, I'm not offering that. I'm offering having the two systems working together in one review.

In that case, having both would OBVIOUSLY be confusing. BY inclusion that alone makes it confusing.

Becuase now you're adding something demonstrably no better and adding MORE information to the user.


I work at a major music festival in Britain. It's massive. We have over 1000 acts over the course of the long weekend. More than 26 stages. Obviously we WILL get people coming up to us asking the question "where is x stage?"

Now, we COULD offer a really clear and concise response how to get there, but we WILL get to see that person in about 5 minutes time going the other way.

Because keeping it simple when conveying info is PARAMOUNT.

So do you know what we do and why it works?
"THat direction, x minutes" and point.

Adding MORE just confuises things.


And it's not a matter of SUBJECTIVE option - whether I want it.

I'm pointing out it's OBJECTIVELY not solving the problem. It ain't opinion.

It’s really not that complex. Also, it’s still giving more information. At this point, I don’t believe we’ll reach a point where we agree, apologies.

[crunchyfrog]

Nguyên văn bởi TKOdarkshadow:

Nguyên văn bởi crunchyfrog:

In that case, having both would OBVIOUSLY be confusing. BY inclusion that alone makes it confusing.

Becuase now you're adding something demonstrably no better and adding MORE information to the user.


I work at a major music festival in Britain. It's massive. We have over 1000 acts over the course of the long weekend. More than 26 stages. Obviously we WILL get people coming up to us asking the question "where is x stage?"

Now, we COULD offer a really clear and concise response how to get there, but we WILL get to see that person in about 5 minutes time going the other way.

Because keeping it simple when conveying info is PARAMOUNT.

So do you know what we do and why it works?
"THat direction, x minutes" and point.

Adding MORE just confuises things.


And it's not a matter of SUBJECTIVE option - whether I want it.

I'm pointing out it's OBJECTIVELY not solving the problem. It ain't opinion.

It’s really not that complex. Also, it’s still giving more information. At this point, I don’t believe we’ll reach a point where we agree, apologies. :nonplussed_creep:

Yeah I'm sorry about that.

But the point is it isn't opinion. So if you don't agree you're disagreeenig with reality. That's the point.

The fact reamins as I've demonstrated, that offering more info which can confuse is NOT a benefit and can never be.

[Start_Running]

Nguyên văn bởi Snake4eva:

Nguyên văn bởi Darren:

But it's graphics aren't top-notch for the genre, there are many games that try to do similar things that have better graphics (Kenshi for example is full 3-D graphics and is the same kind of game if not identical) could I give RimWorld a numeric rating sure but on any objective scale it would be far less than it deserves (it has a number of flaws, but they aren't important to you while you are playing it) and on any subjective one it's absolutely meaningless because you won't be able to compare that number to anything to know whether or not RimWorld is a game for you or not.

It's far more valuable for you to know that I'd recommend you pick it up, it does a few things that are unique (although becoming less so obviously over time) and you almost certainly won't regret your time spent on it (well unless you only like the latest triple-A shooter game).

The point is that the numeric rating is subjective and the user provides the criteria on which they rate the game in their reviews. So you could give RimWorld a 5/5 and in your review you'd make the case as to why you think so. Now another person may give it less with an accompanying review with different criteria. The point being that persons reading the review would understand why someone gives a game a high rating while another gives it a low rating. Recommend / Not Recommend seems a bit limited given some of the comprehensive reviews that usually accompanies the choice.

And again. Why over comoplicate. This is no different that the current system. Just with fuzzier logic. The only difference is that yyou're talking about rartings vs recommendation. Which is actually a less informative point.

[cinedine]

Nguyên văn bởi Snake4eva:

Nguyên văn bởi cinedine:

And guess what. That's exactly what they do.
The recommend the whine based on your dish, your taste and your wallet. If you have a rich dish you don't want an overpowering whine and if you don't like dry, they won't recommend one to you. And if you don't look like a million dollars they will not recommend you the 1890s reserve.

Yes but they've ranked the wines based on various criteria to determine the order from highest to lowest and make a recommendation. They didn't just recommend it because they recommend it or simply because they liked it. Some rating occurred based on a number of factors using assumptions and sometimes input from the user.

And these "ratings" change from customer to customer. So there is no single number you can attach to the whine.
Or the game.

You can perfectly well say "I recommend this [product] because ... " and people can decide for themselves whether these are points they value or even dislike.
You cannot say "I give this a 4/10" because and then pretend this is in any form an objective rating. What you think is a 2/10 might be another persons 10/10. You cannot convey that with numbers in any way, shape, or form. You do this by giving your reasoning. And the current system already requires you to do so. Someone who recommends a game with "good" will just as likely rate a game 10/10 with "good". The problem isn't the numerical scale here.

Read up on Roger Eberts and his "rating system". That's the only way you can rate anything. By putting into context with other things. You cannot do that with a simple number.

[Snake4eva]

Nguyên văn bởi cinedine:

Nguyên văn bởi Snake4eva:

Yes but they've ranked the wines based on various criteria to determine the order from highest to lowest and make a recommendation. They didn't just recommend it because they recommend it or simply because they liked it. Some rating occurred based on a number of factors using assumptions and sometimes input from the user.

And these "ratings" change from customer to customer. So there is no single number you can attach to the whine.
Or the game.

You can perfectly well say "I recommend this [product] because ... " and people can decide for themselves whether these are points they value or even dislike.
You cannot say "I give this a 4/10" because and then pretend this is in any form an objective rating. What you think is a 2/10 might be another persons 10/10. You cannot convey that with numbers in any way, shape, or form. You do this by giving your reasoning. And the current system already requires you to do so. Someone who recommends a game with "good" will just as likely rate a game 10/10 with "good". The problem isn't the numerical scale here.

Read up on Roger Eberts and his "rating system". That's the only way you can rate anything. By putting into context with other things. You cannot do that with a simple number.

You mean the following rating system? The only rating system that makes any sense is the Little Man of the San Franciscio Chronicle, who is seen (1) jumping out of his seat and applauding wildly; (2) sitting up happily and applauding; (3) sitting attentively; (4) asleep in his seat; or (5) gone from his seat. I asked Chronicle film critic Mick LaSalle to read the mind of the Little Man, which he does at the end of this entry.