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No this is EXACTLY it and NOT nonsense. Valve will NOT change it. Valve gets 30% of every game sale, Valve invented a money printing machine and they will keep doing things to sell you games.
- This.
- A pathetic "rating system" where only people who own the game on steam are allowed to rate, that does not hava star or percantage system. Specifically setup so it will show basically ALL games in a positive light, execept if the game are REALLY REALLY bad. I seen millions of reviews of people who rated mediocre games with "Recommend to buy". Not sure what psychological desease this is that people do this but Valve figured it out. I do not suffer from it. People who would rate games with like 5/10 or even 4/10 STILL write extensive reviews, list all flaws of games and STILL recommend them. Do not EVER use the steam review system for anything other then speicfically looking up negative reviews. Use metacritic USERscores instead, they are a way better representation of how good games are.
- Market dominace, that allows them to take 30% of every game for a "service" of providing a simple forum and servers for distribution.
- Discovery Queue and so many other ♥♥♥♥ to sell you stuff.
Sorry to break it to you, they are not on your side, you are just a consumer for them. They may build some nice things for your but ultimately they are on the side of the people who sell games.
Just to be clear not saying you trying to hijack it, but seeing past tread stuff like this can create that, if you want to rant or compline about the review system I recommend a topic for that not a prolog topic
nearly every retail store takes 30%, whats your point? has nothing to do with solely Valve. Also Publishers are free to create Keys and not use Steam. But hey.. you probably know that? Uhm sorry to break it to you but your Job is just slavery, your Boss isnt holdingyour Genital while you pee even though they might offer a Bathroom..
I don't expect anything from Steam other than offering Games
Oh the "Everybody does it so its perfectly fine" non argument like I have never heard that b4, how original.
They do not deserve that money, that is my point, the have to do almost nothing for that. The value is, like I said, just because they can, because market dominance. Epic does not take 30% and I am glad they are here now, I am glad that they use the Fortnite kids parents money to aggressively try to get a piece of the market. It's absolutely ridiculous to take 30%. And my guess is in 10 years steam will not take 30% anymore.
A retail store, an actual physical store needs to pay rent, have employers there ... things that justify a 30% cut. A digital store where everything is automated and coast next to nothing is VERY DIFFERENT.
And glad to break it to you but my boss actually holds my ♥♥♥♥, and I am not a slave to him. Because it's me, I am my own boss.
Good that is exactly what I am saying just replace the "offering" with marketing, upsell, do anything in their power to sell people stuff they do not need. Using tactics like putting Prologues in Free to Play category. It's of course true that they are but people expect free to play titles in there were in most cases sales are mostly cosmetic and it's not about Prologues made free for the only reason to get you hooked and then purchase the entire game.
What Valve offers is first and foremost a service for the people who want to SELL games. The people who want to play games come later, tools are build to keep them happy while striking the balance with exploitation. What steam has perfected is selling old and indie games for very low prices so people buy a bunch of games they never play. The "piles if shame" is something that proves me right on this. So many people buy games they never touch. The "Oh its just 5 bucks" trick works really really well.
So yeah guys just use 3rd party sites to buy your keys, use 3rd party sites to look for actual reviews and do not expect anything from steam other than trying hard to make a sale out of you. Do not even look into those steam categorized lists. Look elsewhere, problem solved. I am 100% sure there is a site out there that has categorized free to play titles in a database WITHOUT prologues of episode style games.
False equivalence. It isn't "the everybody does it" argument. That's incredibly wrong.
It's the MARKET STANDARD. That's the point. In retirt to the claim that 30% is seen as shocking, the RETORT is that 30^ is normal because it is.
That's borderline strawmanning.
You seem to lack intelligence. It's common sense that it coasts them next to nothing, there is no citation needed. As a hole steam for sure eats up tons of money but NOT 30% if every singe game sale.
The have some programmers that patch and improve steam, some servers and some moderators.
Lets say a game sells 1 million copies at $100 each on steam (just for simpilcity). Do you really think they deserve to cache in $30 million for a single game just for providing servers that distribute the game? Seriously? I bet they do not even dedicate a single steam mod who actually works full tome on a games forum. I bet they have them moderate multiple games. You do the math of what a single steam mod would coast. And the server coasts scale incredibly well.
Like I said, its a money printing machine. The ONLY reason they take 30% is because they have market dominace so they can. The devs have to put the work in and actual make the games and Valve just takes 30% of they work for providing a stupid forum and server distribution. Game devs basically are blackmailed into steam because it's so dominat they actually make way less sales if they are not on here. So of course they are all on here, they basically have to. What EPIC offers is some really really agressive marketign to win them over and quite a lot of devs have taken exclusivity deals with them now. I read they have offered devs deals like "if you not make xxxxx sales we pay it out of our pocket" like gearanteed income deals. They did everything in their power to get at least a few games over there. The constantly give out free games to get players on their store. It' very hard to break a de-facto monopoly. And the most ridiculous thing is that gamers hate the epic store because poor spoiled brats are to lazy to open another app and wan't their convenience not careing that 30% is outraguous and that devs get more form EPIC.
What is "False equivalence"? Spell it out dude, I have no clue what you possibly mean.
It in fact IS the "everybody does is so its great and OK and justified argument" that you or another guy made. Claiming that is is not does not make it less true. Repeating it without adding anything to the argument? Fail.
I Never said it's not the market standard. So what? You just made the "Everbody does it so its cool and just" argument again! No need to reapeat yourself.
I made a fantastic argument to show that digital sales are very different from physicals sales in stores. It does not seem to compute in your head. It is in fact shocking that the market standard still is 30% in 2020 for digital sales. It was actually YOU or another guy who made the arguement about retail stores. To me it was not even about that but yeah I think they have 100 more reasons to take 30% all digital sellers.
You do not understand what strawmanning is, but hey you tried.
But is the market standard for digital game sales actually 30% still? Does GOG take 30%? I do not know. Ubisoft and EA mostly or exlusively sell their own games on their stores so percentages do not really matter there. Now EPIC at least was able to get a little bit of the market and they take only 12% or something I believe. They also wave the fees for the de-facto industry standard engine of you sell there. Like every 4th game is made with UnrealEngine.
What about the indie games sites? Or Humble store ... do they all take 30%? Even of they all do, it does not make it good or OK, it makes it disgusting. How about you just accept it instead of fanboying for Valve here?
And no, the point about "others do it" is also self evident. No, repeating it does not make it true.
But here's a kicker - claims ALWAYS stand on their own merits. Doesn't matter who says it, how often, where, when and so on. So repeating it is also a flawed argument, because it's utterly moot.
You seem to be strawmanning again. I have ONLY made this one claim - that the industry standard of 30% is NOT and CANNOT be shocking. Because its somewhat of a standard.
Please explain how something that is not exceptional is shocking.
THAT'S ALL I ADDRESSED, NOTHING MORE.
Jesus, why do soome people assume that when you disagree with one small point, they think you are all in with everything. Please go and learn some basic critical thinking.
And bottom line - THE BURDEN OF PROOF ALWAYS LIES WITH THE CLAIMANT.
This means the person asserting a claim ALWAYS has to provide the proof. Always. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about games, news, knitting, car maintenance, topography, or a small green particle up the arsehole of a Yorkshire Terrier called Donald.
Again, please do Google some basic critical thinking - start with "burden of proof" to explain what I've just said, and basic critical thinking, because there is NO WAY round it. Dodging doesn#'t cut it.
Throwing in insults only makes you look like a fool, as that usually is the MO of people who cannot back up the claims they make.
Game devs and publishers do, not Valve.
Valve doesn't take the full 30% there are also taxes they need to pay
They got servers to run 24/7 that need to provide downloads for people around the world and storage for lots of different games and software
Valve always improves and works on more things on Steam, if they did not Origin and the like will have been able to maybe catch up on them
More then that Steam has a lot more then just selling games, they got new systems coming in all the time, and this systems make money for Valve and the developer
Developers pick where to sale, and sure they can do Steam and it will get them a nice market, not going to deny that, but its not the only reason for them to get on Steam
There is also all the tools from Steam given for "free" as part of the deal, you get forums, place for users to share content and make a community around the game
You get free advertising in fourm of reviews on the spot, and the like
You can get extra money from market sales (cards, in game items)
You don't have to deal with downloads and servers to provide the game (just servers to run multiplayer if you pick to go that route)
You get matchmaking services
You get VAC to detect cheters
You get an Achievements system
and so on
Also if you think your game is worth more, one can talk over with Valve and trying to take down the 30%
Valve stays on top because they keep updating, they keep developing and keep improving
Not because they are just old or the biggest
They remain the biggest simply as they keep doing it smart, and using the money they get to make and do more
I don't like Epic, not much because of how they treat developers or the like but as their store lacks in many feathers and ability that Steam has, after they catch up on the community and tools, they may have a chance with Steam for more users
Furthermore, you might think 30% is extreme (but you're wrong as it IS a norm in this industry whether right or not to your sensibilities). But the reality is that agremements by nature are two party agreements. NOBODY is forcing anyone else.
So you CANNOT look at 30% and say "whew that's a lot" when you'll be gettting a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of exposure and advertising that you simply can't get elsewhere.
Now consider that a moment - is 30% so much when this is essentially free advertising thrown in? Do you realise how much advertising budgets run to?
I know what the word means, I still have no clue what I supposedly compared that is a False equivalence.
Valve does not disclose publically what they spend that money on, it for sure is not on their own games because they did like Half Life Alxy in the last 8 years or whatever and not much more.
Everybody here knows that I am right. How about you actually make some rough guesses on how they spend 30 million of ONE GAME if it gets a million dollars in sales. There is no way in hell they need even half of that. Money and EPIC PROVES THAT.
They could EASY finance the few devs that work on the steam client on an SINGLE high grossing game. Something like GTA V that sells like hot potatoes over the years. There are thousands of games on here!
They did this over 17 years or so, steam had some nice features but its not THAT big a deal. And NO Steams features are not the #1 reason Origin did not manage to get a reasonable piece of the market.
#1 Reason is steam has market dominance and EA does not have the genius marketers that EPIC has. Epic's strategy is incredibly aggressive because it needs to be.
#2 It's because EA SUCKS! It's because everybody knows they suck. The ruined multiple franchises, are greedy AF ... they lead a ranking like America's worst employer/company or something like that ...
I was talking about EPIC you ron and no, it is in fact EPIC who give the free games out and PAY the publishers/devs for it. They do it to break a 17 years ahead de-facto monopoy, and they probably use the money from Fortnite kids parents for that.
I do not remember Valve ever giving out free games, so yes if something on steam is free its free weekend and stuff prologues (wow topic). And of course it's to hook people in to open their wallets. And it's of course things that are publisher approved because they know that these marketing techniques work. Publishers never did something like that. Actually now when I think about it, of course they are interested in not having to pay Valve 30% of their earning in the long term, so they help EPIC gain some market. Maybe they actually do give the games out on Epic for free but my guess is still that EPIC pays them. Especially some lesser known new publishers/games, they really have no reason to give their games out for free there. Like they get so many sales when the giveaway ends or something. They would still get more on Steam even with paying 30%.
Sure, you better hope the company that is 17 years ahead has something to offer for their 30%. Not going to argue that they have some nice things to offer devs that have value. Still the there is no "choice" really. (Except then EPIC presents you some deal that you can not deny). All this actually adds to my argument, they are all basically forced to take the deal as "good" as it may be. I do not calculate the value that it gives a dev. I calculate it by what Valve has to spend! And if its justified to take that crazy cut. It's NOT!
And I say it again: They invented a money printing machine!
I challenge anyone to make some rough calculations what a few devs who work on the steam client/website/mobile apps ... whatever coast. What a coasts for a HUGE company like Valve to rent out a bit of data center storage for distribution. If you buy the space in this kind of magnitude the price for a single game is absolutely laughable.
I am not a game dev, and if I were it's not about what I think it's what I need to do to get the sales in and unless I have something that EPIC give me some crazy deal on I am forced to give 30% of what I worked for to valve no matter what. If my game does not MP I do not need VAC. Maybe I do not want to spend time to implement could saves and do not want to use valves servers for that. I still need to pay them 30% no matter what ...
Again Steam exists for 17 years, what EPIC has build (by only taking 12%) is already pretty good. They already have cloud saves and an OK shop to see the games they sell. They will catch up fast I am sure. Gamers kids have no clue about how capitalism work and they are extremely egoistic. That is why they hate epic. Sure the tools here are better, many things here are better. But its better if the actualy developper earns more for the games they build and people should applaud EPIC for what they have done instead of bashing them and demanding a Monopoly. I find it horrible to see a bunch of scraming kids basically running after devs and shouting at them (twitter and other places) "You suck for going to EPIC first year".
He said they have currently 7% of direct coasts (shrinking with scale). And they are not even close to the scale that Valve is. There you have it ROFL and people keep stubbornly arguing that Valve needs 30% and I should provide some citation. You got owned! You have some explaining to do how a company like EPIC at that scale can already easy make a profit while only taking less than HALF of the cut! Remember my point about distribution being cheap? I just proved myself right, I just looked this up, I have seen this b4. I am glad I did even though I basically know it already!
Btw I am not an EPIC fanboy, even though I love their Engine. I am just using them to prove that 30% is absolutely ridiculous.
I challenge anybody to give me some rough calculations why Valve supposedly needs 30%. They have some game overlay, VAC (that 99% of the games do not need, works only with special games anyway) sure there are few features missing but nothing that actually coasts so much money. A few steam mods sure, EPIC has no forums (right?) so sure I would be OK with Valve taking like 1% more for that, no problem ;)
You totally fail to get it, you just another guy who argues that argues its "worth" by what it offers not what it actually in reality coasts. You people do not understand that monopolies are BAD for consumers! Really really bad. And it's NOT good that they used that extreme cut/marketing dominance to get where they are. It would be much better if form early on where would be some other company who competed, then devs would actually have more money they deserve and it would not end up on Gaben's bank account.
Who BTW completely gets what is going on "Gabe Newell says 'everybody benefits' from competition with Epic"! At least he is honest about it. And again I predict Valve lowering that extreme cut in the future.
And no Valves advertising budget is NOT big. They already have all the gamers ON THEIR OWN APP. They already have the mechanics like the topic of prologues and discovery big fat banners ... build into steam. They can advertise in their own client for free! I am not aware what they do or spent outside from steam but there is really not much need for anything because every PC gamer will download steam anyway. It has some super annoying default settings like displaying banners, it puts itself into autostart ... I always turn that off. They are on your computer directly displaying banners. Every other app doing it would be immediately considered malware.
I am on mobile curently but I think I shuld addresssome things in your post
First Valve give out Portal, Left4Dead 2 for free
Dont expect them to give much else CS:GO, Dota 2 and TF2 are free so...
We also had more games given out like I think Injustice: Gods amung us, some war game with Red in the name, and a few more
EA give out free games for a while like Battlefiled 3, Pogel, the sims 3 compelte (or maybe it was 2?) And some more games
I think they still have the "On the house" catagory in there sales menus (no more free games how ever)
Dose Valve need to cut even on 30% no they dont
"The fair price is the price the consumer is willing to pay"
In this case the consumer is the publisher/developer
Saying they have no outher option is abslotly false, GOG was an option for a long time, self saling on your own site was an option (and some taken it and still do)
Valve get there 30% becouse publisher/developers (going to just say publisher from now till the end) find it acceptble, if not they can nagusiate a deffrent price and some do (or so I heard)
Valve did not use all this money just for Half Life Alyx that be a complete blind view on so many things
Valve made OpenVR and Steam Audio, they made the light house system, they made a lot of updates to the clinet and the commuinty, they hired a support staff that passed training
There working on 2 more games
Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, Artifact keep getting updates while this is going on
SteamOS
Source 2 still been worked on and was the base for Half Life: Alyx
Souce 2 just FYI if they keep to what they anonced back then will be free to use, as long as you relase also on Steam
To compere to use Unity you can do for free till you earn 100K$ in a year then you have to buy the pro, and if you pass some life after that you need to buy the entprise (if my memmory is correct)
Epic Engine cost 15% of your earning (if memmory serves me right have not checked on it for a while)
Valve get 30% of sales on Steam
If you buy a key from the developer site, the developer gets 100% of that (minus running the site)
Epic dose 12% becose they need to pull developers in, they need to pay or buy developers to get them on there store, and locks exlusive deals (something mind you that is completely anti consumer, as there limiting your options)
Manoply is not anti-consumer, its the actions that deside if a manoply is anti consumer
I mean Micrsoft had a browser manoply back in the old days, and that was called out for anti-cansumer manoply bahvior, but not becouse they where big or spread out, but becouse how they got there
Cuting deals to get windows on computers, setting Internet Expolrer for free in an attempt to kill Netscape, and more
What did Valve do that was anti-consumer?
Being a good system, offering more options to developers and users, handing free tools to developers on there system and making things coftruble by making a one stop shop are all not anto consumer
More over Epic, Uplay, GOG, Origin, what ever was the name of the one with the round monster (starting with D), iticho.io, Windows Store and so on
Prove that Valve is not acting in an anti-consumer manoply behavior
If they where all these companys will have not likely to come up as Valve if they where the manoply type will have worked to kill them out, something we yet to see
Epic is good for the consumer, as they give something to push Valve to make Steam better
So I am all for epic to grow and get stronger, but they have a long way to be something I personally want to use, as its missing a lot
And you know they can spend money to improve the system, improve the store, add a commuinty feathers, do much much more
But they for now at least are not trying to do that, in place they pay for exlusive, they try to lock the market, limit the consumer
If you got a 2 companys that make sweet candy
One taste horrible, one taste wonderful
The company that makes the wonderful candy has 80% of the market
Dose that make them anti-comsumer? Or dose that just mean there doing it right? Or both?
Valve works on a lot of projects all the time, we only see what comes out
Like the Thinking with portals Steam for schools, and more
You can look and say that they jut pocket all the profit, but that will ignore a lot of things, you can look over Valve News Network on youtube if you like to see a little more
Anyway... is there no topic about Manoply? This is the topic about prolog so we shuld stick to the topic not shove it just to seem like we are on topic
Not going to reply on manoply here any more, just worten this and then notice the topic too late 😅
You keep asserting things like that.
I'm just disputing your claims, becuase you haven't fulfilled your burden of proof to demonstrate them, which is how reality works.
SO please do so, Red Animal.
Demonstrate that Valve's costs are as you claim and why that's important or even relevant. Because as I said - ALL I've disputed is ONE point - your claims that 30% is unusual, because as I said this is markedly the same as Xbox and PSN and Nintendo, and probably more sites that I'm not aware of.
You CANNOT claim it's unusual or whatever when it appears that a whole chunk or even the majority of the others do the same.
And again, this does NOT mean I agree with it, or like it or ANYTHING. I have expressed no opinion or stance on the matter.