[KTA]ShotguM 2012 年 10 月 13 日 下午 8:21
Aimbots, Wall Hackers and all other cheaters
Idia - add a vote button to the games to remove hakers from curient game
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正在显示第 31 - 43 条,共 43 条留言
Zak Taggart 2012 年 11 月 13 日 上午 10:03 
引用自 Mason
Yeah vote systems are prone to 'hacking' in itself. As I was recently reminded of with my own post. Which is why I changed my idea to automation.

But anyway, the only setup I've seen that holds any weight against hacking aimbots, speed hacks, grapple scripts, etc. Is a system where you play the game on another computer. Lets say steam actually runs your game on a server that you rent monthly from them. You can't get into the files of the game. Or attach any other software not cleared by steam. Because it's not installed on your pc.

There was a system like this called Game Live or something of that sort. It didn't catch on.
They basically sent back a flat image of the game you we're playing. And your controls went to the server. That was the only manipulation of the game you had. Key input.

But that still doesn't stop the latest software. They read images, recongize characters, a head, move the controls to aim at it.
Doesn't even require GPU data anymore.

Which is probably why that other system kinda flopped. Or maybe it was just the monthly fee to play games you still have to buy. lol

True... the best systems work that only run on server. However, there are many many ways to reduce the issue even when you don't control the client as long as you still control the transport. Even if you don't control the transport and they have full control of the system, you can still reduce the issue as long as you control the allocation... If allocation and transport isn't controlled.. well.. there are still ways but it's limited.
Zak Taggart 2012 年 11 月 13 日 上午 10:29 
引用自 Spawn of Totoro
Yes, everything has a counter. And ever counter has a counter as well. It is just one big, never ending, cycle.

If 500,000 people play the game a day, how many will vote kick people?

Let us say, 20k kicks a day for reivew. 1 min videos. 20k minuts of video, 333 hours of video, 41 people to view them each day, 8 hour shifts. That is a lot of money. Any fewer and there will be a back log of videos. Hope no one calls in sick, goes on vacation or needs a day off.

With a false steam ID in there, you could ban legit players. It takes take to find out there is a problem, then counter it. Then everyone will claim they were baned by mistake. How do you tell who is lying? The video will still show the same Steam ID. You can't fix it after a video was made.

You may be ok with getting kickd for being a good player, others are not. They won't want to be kicked just for being good. If they get kicked every game because of it, why would they even want to play the game anymore?

A game like this, you can't clasify someone's skill or maturity level. You can't place them in little bubbles. If someone was in the top 2% of players, that would be 4k people they can play with. Will they all be on at the same time? Inlude a "maturity" filter, probebly drops a lot of people. The best seem to also be the most imature people out there.

It doesn't matter if there are 25 million people that play the game a day. The scaling isn't about authority, it's about community. Couple that with good AI and you're talking a good system. You can identify false Steam IDs as well and who needs watch a video to figure it out.

And yes, with a game this you CAN clasify someone's skill. And you CAN deal with maturity level (though you might not want to). And yes, you can put people in bubble, they are already doing that. The top scale doesn't have to be set, it can be a sliding set based upon ping and people playing etc. You wouldn't be much more limited than finding groups now.

I don't say any of this from a point of ignorance. I've been developing systems for over 30 years most of it in high traffic real-time social environments.



Spawn of Totoro 2012 年 11 月 13 日 上午 10:44 
Except an AI system would have to make choices. It could esely make false choices too. That is why VAC works and what you are asking be done has been tried and discarded, not matter how you try and word it.

VAC offers the most protection and the least false positives.

If you rely on community ot fix the probblem, that is like asking everyone what hteir favorite color is. They all have diffrent ideas and feeling about what should and should not be.

No, you can not classify someone's maturity level. If it is a test, well, people will cheat it. If it is based on others optinion, that changes from person to person. How wuld you deal with someone who's marurity level as gone up or down?

How are they put in a bubble now? I've seen highly skilled players on both sides as well as lower skilled players playing along side them. Balance doesn't put everyone in a bubble with skill, and a slider won't help. It would take far too much to balance, and it would need to be rebalanced hourly.

If the system looks for a false ID, how does it identify it? If the hacker is transmiting a false ID, the system will see that ID as the players, it can't tell the diffrence.

You system would cost so and take so much time and effort to develope before it could even be released, let alone to maintain.

If you want to make that kind of system and sell it, feel free to try. Don't suggest others waste their money on it though.
Satoru 2012 年 11 月 13 日 上午 10:49 
I'm all for community based efforts. I think that SourceBans does a good job of filtering out most cheaters. But again these should be optional components and something that the larger community tries to maintain. Back porting that information into VAC is very dangerous.
[KTA]ShotguM 2012 年 11 月 13 日 下午 1:55 
Its usualy only one aimboter or wallhacker in the game (if any) so he cant "vote me out"
He will be outnumberet

引用自 luZk
Lets see how you like it when the "cheaters" start voting you.
[KTA]ShotguM 2012 年 11 月 13 日 下午 2:02 
Yes i like the "personal blacklist " idea beter
引用自 AlanIsAGamer
Too easy to abuse for it to work properly, though a persona blacklist might work...
PerpleX 2012 年 11 月 13 日 下午 11:32 
personal blacklist is an amazing idea. so many scumbags that are hackers, raging into the microphone like they are king tut. omg...loserz at maximum velocity.
Solyc Cλndy 2012 年 11 月 13 日 下午 11:43 
I like the idea of doing a blacklist of players you don't want to play with. Then, let's steam do their own statistics of the most blacklisted players
Keonyn ♣ 2012 年 11 月 14 日 上午 11:28 
So how exactly would the personal blacklist work. If I blacklist someone does it then prevent them from joining a server I'm on or just warn me that they are joining? If it blocks someone it could be abused by allowing someone to just blacklist someone they don't like to prevent them from being able to access a server.
Tito Shivan 2012 年 11 月 14 日 下午 1:32 
So how exactly would the personal blacklist work. If I blacklist someone does it then prevent them from joining a server I'm on or just warn me that they are joining? If it blocks someone it could be abused by allowing someone to just blacklist someone they don't like to prevent them from being able to access a server.
It's already being tested in L4D2, AFAIK.
Basically, anyone on your ignore list is unable to join a game you are in. In a similar way, you cannot join a game that person is playing.
http://www.l4d.com/blog/post.php?id=7025
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28547471&postcount=237
Zak Taggart 2012 年 11 月 14 日 下午 1:36 
So how exactly would the personal blacklist work. If I blacklist someone does it then prevent them from joining a server I'm on or just warn me that they are joining? If it blocks someone it could be abused by allowing someone to just blacklist someone they don't like to prevent them from being able to access a server.

It would be in the allocation algorthm. Simply put... when it is finding a server for you to play on it first finds a sever that you could join, if you have been blacklisted by somebody on that server, it rotates to another server, if you are already on a server playing and some one is joining that has you on their blacklist, it finds them a different server. So one has to be careful about blacklisting too many people because it allocation can work both ways.

I like black lists, but I'm careful about them too. That's why a simple blacklist is dangerous, there has to be a little more AI into it than just that. It's part of the reason I like weighted systems or token based ones.

Zak Taggart 2012 年 11 月 14 日 下午 6:03 
引用自 Spawn of Totoro
Except an AI system would have to make choices. It could esely make false choices too. That is why VAC works and what you are asking be done has been tried and discarded, not matter how you try and word it.
What I am suggesting has not been done and tried. Not even close. VAC barely works. It's better than if it didn't exist but have you tried to play a game recently. It's a joke.

引用自 Spawn of Totoro
VAC offers the most protection and the least false positives.
Compared to what?

引用自 Spawn of Totoro
If you rely on community ot fix the probblem, that is like asking everyone what hteir favorite color is. They all have diffrent ideas and feeling about what should and should not be.
Not true. Individually, I would agree, but social engineering and AI is not like that at all. In fact, socal engineering is done all the time all over the place on and off line and it works.

引用自 Spawn of Totoro
No, you can not classify someone's maturity level. If it is a test, well, people will cheat it. If it is based on others optinion, that changes from person to person. How wuld you deal with someone who's marurity level as gone up or down?
Yes, you can classify maturity. Do I think that should be done well, like I said, maybe not but it can be done. However, that is something that is constantly changing so it has to be revisited often. Can people get around maturity ratings, yes but it depends on how it is implemented and I don't really feel that AI is good enough to automate that process without an advanced social structure.

引用自 Spawn of Totoro
How are they put in a bubble now? I've seen highly skilled players on both sides as well as lower skilled players playing along side them. Balance doesn't put everyone in a bubble with skill, and a slider won't help. It would take far too much to balance, and it would need to be rebalanced hourly.
When I said they already do, I wasn't talking about them doing it with ranks. They are put into bubbles with how they are allocated. Be it by ping for performance or by allowing clans to play together (both of which I agree with), they are bubbles. It's done with dedicated servers and with DLC etc and other ways too. Bubbles don't have to be a bad thing.

引用自 Spawn of Totoro
If the system looks for a false ID, how does it identify it? If the hacker is transmiting a false ID, the system will see that ID as the players, it can't tell the diffrence.
Actually, you can tell the difference. I won't go into the process here but you can do similar things on a web browser to uniquely identify someone without so much as a cookie or login information. And although, it's only about 88% of the cases on web browsers, we can push that number up to nearly 99.9999% with a video game. IDs just make the process easier.

引用自 Spawn of Totoro
You system would cost so and take so much time and effort to develope before it could even be released, let alone to maintain.

If you want to make that kind of system and sell it, feel free to try. Don't suggest others waste their money on it though.
And you have experience in this? I actually do have experience in this. I could quote out a cost and a timeline and even maintain it with my company. But I wouldn't do it without getting paid. If Activision feels that reducing cheating is important enough to invest some money into, then I'm more than willing to make it happen. Plus who are you to tell me that I can't suggest to them to fix this problem? And who are you to determine that it's a waste of money? Do you speak for Activision or Steam or any authority what-so-ever?

Dad 2013 年 5 月 26 日 下午 4:04 
引用自 Commander Urdnot
God, another thread complaining about hackers?

First world problems, right there. First world problems...

There are more than a handful of hackers in the NS2 community just like there are in most online games out there. These are the same losers that defend the hackers and beattdown on the accusers. I just played a gmae with 3 people usuing aimbots on marines, ending the game in under 5 minutes without a single death.

NS2 does not have a big community. It's a very tiny community. Because of that, not much attention and focus will be paid for these hack abusers. Therefore, they will continue to abuse online games to deal with their pathetic lives.
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发帖日期: 2012 年 10 月 13 日 下午 8:21
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