Steam and Windows XP/Vista legacy client - discussion

[rvn515]

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1558-AFCM-4577
There are games sold on the Steam during XP and Vista era, which are more stable and bug-free on these older systems. Ability to use them in their original environment would be very useful. All I'm asking is simplified client without community features, which will be able to download games and verify your licenses.

[Space Coward]

I do think dropping the platforms entirely is a bit of a mistake. If you launch Origin, you'll find that it has a limited client without a store on XP-- this, in my opinion, would be the best option for legacy software. There should be a legacy client that is restricted in features and used "at the user's own risk" purely to access the Library.

It wouldn't even need to be a new system, just the current one pre-Panorama with Community, Friends, and Profile support gone.

[rvn515]

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam
Looks like XP is more popular than new Ubuntu/Mint distributions. So, it's time to ditch Linux first? Or Windows 8.1?
They are saying that XP and Vista versions will not work anymore, completely. They want to discard old system versions regardless of what can (and how long) or what can't work after I 2019.
We are not talking about random browsers, we are talking about entire Steam ecosystem.

Matt eredeti hozzászólása:

Developers can still update their games. Look how Counter Strike continues to work on newer operating systems. There comes a point when the cost of supporting legacy systems is no longer worth it.

I don't think anyone is against your idea. However, we understand that it's not a realistic suggestion and has about a 0.1% chance of happening.

So, why Mac or Linux client versions? ;) If you want to bring this into % or popularity within gaming community, they are as much relevant as old Windows systems, sorry.

Satoru eredeti hozzászólása:

rvn515 eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm not asking for ancient things (like someone exagerrating about MS-DOS and Steam somewhere else), Windows XP is a big part of Steam and gaming history.

Please try to explain how an OS that is 17 years old not 'ancient'

Atari and Colecovision are also part of gaming history

So is the NES

So are pinball machines

Things are not supported forever

Windows XP is not 17 years old, do not forget about Service Pack 3 (2008) and there are new security updates for enterprise machines, theoretically you can use them on standard machines. My point is, that you are ignoring all work after premiere by saying that it is xx years old and thats all, second, it's not like it will go kaboom when you try to run it now.


I'm curious what Valve really think about this.
https://help.steampowered.com/pl/wizard/HelpWithSteam
Choose client crash or loggin problems (because client will not work), and ask them one thing: if you are selling games advertized as XP and Vista compatible (system requirements), then why you can't access them with XP and Vista? https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1558-AFCM-4577
Solution would be simplified client for download/verification only.
It's about company with big gaming shop, not about small random GitHub project when one guy decides to move on.

[Black Blade]

rvn515 eredeti hozzászólása:

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam
Looks like XP is more popular than new Ubuntu/Mint distributions. So, it's time to ditch Linux first? Or Windows 8.1?
They are saying that XP and Vista versions will not work anymore, completely. They want to discard old system versions regardless of what can (and how long) or what can't work after I 2019.
We are not talking about random browsers, we are talking about entire Steam ecosystem.

First of all its because the client itself will not be supported by XP, its not a block on XP it self

Second of all breaking Linux to parts as if it's not the same thing is really picking what fits the narrative then what it really means
Windows XP 32 bit 0.22% -0.03%
Linux 0.57% +0.02%

So also can see that it seems XP is losing users while Linux is gaining
Add to that:
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS 64 bit 0.07% +0.07%
Ubuntu 17.10 64 bit 0.05% -0.04%
Ubuntu 16.04.4 LTS 64 bit 0.11% -0.02%

Even if we take Ubuntu alone there are more users of it then users of XP
(0.23%)
And from what we can also see the older versions seem to be updated to a newer version with the gain of 18 compared to 17 and 16

Also if we assume the data is completely correct (that its not) can even say that there may be a growth of 0.01% of users of Linux on Ubuntu along with 0.06% fewer users on older versions that may have updated and 0.01% more of that growing on the newer version

[rvn515]

They are not saying only about ending support, there is clarification that it won't run on those systems completely after certain date, so that's a block, not end of support.

So, breaking Windows into versions is ok, but breaking Linux into versions is not? Come on. If you want to play like that, then show 96% Windows versus 3% Mac and 0,5% Linux. And let's talk about financial viability from that point. Exotic systems vs native gaming systems for most games sold here. I'm not against Mac or Linux, I'm surprised that someone wants to use one niche system as argument for shutting down another niche system, instead of support. Unless, your post = irony.

[Matt]

For the longest time it didn't support Mac or Unix. I'm sure they wished it caught on more, but part of the gap is from games have to support those OS too.

[Turbo Nozomix]

Matt eredeti hozzászólása:

The point here is to end support; a separate client would be continued support... They did the same for Win 98 and 2000 years ago.

Not really. The "support" that developers are concerned with is the ongoing development effort and responsibility to update a platform or software in order to keep it in good shape. A legacy client that never receives updates from its first and only release is not that type of support.

When Valve say they're ending support for older OSes, they mean for the one client that everybody uses - because that one client is being updated with features that are not compatible with older OSes. But a legacy client would not have those features, and would not interfere with Valve's plan to adopt new features, and to no longer dedicate development efforts for older OSes.

A single release of a legacy client is the ethical, the right thing to do.

I'm pretty sure it would run afoul of consumer laws for Valve to simply block out people's access to the games that were advertised for older OSes, which people bought and own and are entitled to access. I think Valve would lose any legal challenge on this subject just as Valve previously lost challenges to their refund policy, and just like challenges to the right to resell software licenses also lost in the EU's highest court.

[River Replica]

It is all very much beyond me. Oh, the sorrow. That's all I can think of. Only sorrow. Oh and how I really hate computers. Oh well. :(

[Space Coward]

I don't think Valve has any real legal threat from this move. That said, it would be a great act of goodwill towards consumers to have a legacy version devoid of any real support and barred from certain features for XP/Vista.

[Winged One]

its not going to happen, like most tech companies they don't want their userbase running on an unsecure platform..


you can still play all your older games on your newer PC, you are not going to "lose" your games

[Lord of the Infinite Clouds]

theseraph1 eredeti hozzászólása:

its not going to happen, like most tech companies they don't want their userbase running on an unsecure platform..


you can still play all your older games on your newer PC, you are not going to "lose" your games

How do I get landmasses and mountains to show reflections in Far Cry 1 under Windows 7? How about the warpy tree shapes? Have you figured this out? Is Valve going to make a patch? Is it Ubisoft's responsibility? The games works free of graphical glitches on the platform it was released and developed for.... so the developer/publisher is in the clear.

How about proper shadows for the original Splinter Cell? Are you going to make Geforce 3/4 drivers for Windows 7? Should Valve? Or the developer? dgVoodoo has made some progress on this front... is Valve going to collaborate with them and have it built into the version sold on their store?

These games work under the the platforms they were designed for and unless Valve intends to get into the business of making fixes and compatability tweaks the way GOG does for games sold on their store they should do one of two things...

1) Leave an unsupported, 'use-at-your-own-peril', legacy client so folks can install Windows XP games on their retro machines (again, this is 99% about people having a designated retro machine and maybe 1% -- if even -- of people who are still actually using Windows XP as a daily driver).

2) Allow us to download .exe installers for XP games in our libraries on Windows 7+ machine that can be transferred over and installed without Steam on our retro machine.

[Space Coward]

My biggest issue with abandoning XP is that Steam has made itself a great home for old, obscure titles and old classics alike. Some devs do a better job than others of making them work on new systems. Infinite Clouds gave a great example considering the absolute hell that Far Cry 1 can be on post-Vista systems (and landmasses can NEVER be fixed), but games like Dark Forces II and Shogo can't even be considered "playable" on a new system. I mean, just look at Unreal-- Microsoft finally managed to break Unreal Engine 1 games after two decades of flawless compatibility, and without dgVoodoo or nGlide, well, no dice. Nobody wants to sit around for hours messing with DirectX/3DFX emulation software. They'll do it if they have to, but using older operating systems on a machine with compatible hardware is the simpler and more elegant solution by far.

Windows XP has been a great way of circumventing these issues, and while I agree that active support is well past due, blocking the client altogether will make all of these games outright unplayable. This is blocking off the user's computer based on security measures the users probably don't even care about.

Most importantly, Valve has always had one statement that for the most part held true in everything they attempt to do: to beat piracy, offer the better service. For once, Valve's really going at ends with that vision. While this may not be the intention, their current methods will punish those who use an XP system, even secondarily. The legal way to buy and own these old games will now have a clumsy restriction, and Valve will for once be aiming to punish users that purchase their games in a legitimate manner. This is where I'd draw the line, personally.

It remains true that there's probably <4% of people on Steam who actually care... but for that 4%, a major draw to Steam will be closed off for reasons they never asked for.

A proposed solution:

Just give them a client that will allow them to log in, use the current and old-fashioned VGUI interface, and access the Library, download games, and just maybe even the Store, if that's possible (probably a stretch). Heck, I don't even expect a friends list. JUST game support would be enough.

Don't support this version, and force users who use this "Legacy Steam" branch to agree to an extra ToS where they agree that they are liable for security issues (not Valve) and that they understand there will be no support. Every Win7+ client can continue onward with active support and the Panorama update, and those with an interest in classic titles and a throwback machine they intend to use for these games can continue using it.

But let's say downloading is too much of a risk...

If there's absolutely no other solution... give us JUST the library. No friends. No store. Not downloads. JUST the library. Let us use Steam to login to the server and launch our games, which often use Steam's built-in DRM. We can work out the logistics of using a flash drive to download the games from another computer and move them over. Just let us use Steam to PLAY them.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Problem is the library also makes heavy use of Chromium. For it to work, Valve would have to developer an entirely new client AND authentication servers for the client and that is not feasible or cost effective for any buisness, given the amount of XP/Vista users out there.

[Space Coward]

Spawn of Totoro eredeti hozzászólása:

Problem is the library also makes heavy use of Chromium. For it to work, Valve would have to developer an entirely new client AND authentication servers for the client and that is not feasible or cost effective for any buisness, given the amount of XP/Vista users out there.

Pardon me asking, but why would a new client need to be developed if the one in its current state managed to work on XP? Aren't there version differences between the current beta branch and main branch. despite both [presumably] using the same servers?

[Spawn of Totoro]

Moss eredeti hozzászólása:

Pardon me asking, but why would a new client need to be developed if the one in its current state managed to work on XP? Aren't there version differences between the current beta branch and main branch. despite both [presumably] using the same servers?

For one, security issues using the out dated Chromium (most likely one of the reasond for the change) as not just the library, but the log-in both use Chromium.

Using a hybrid isn't really an option as that causes security issues as well. Currently the only difference is the new chat system, but that will extend to the entire client at some point, but it is only as safe as it's weakes link and programming wise, that would be the out dated Chromium.

The chat servers most likely are running a beta version on a seperate system, so the current client is still using the current system, hence why XP and Vista Beta client can not use the new chat system.

Then there are purchase to consider. There is a security protocal that needs to be updated (can't remember the name, sorry) to v1.2 from 1.1 and that does not work on XP or Vista either, making it so one can not make a purchase on Steam using Vista or XP as well.

[Space Coward]

Spawn of Totoro eredeti hozzászólása:

Moss eredeti hozzászólása:

Pardon me asking, but why would a new client need to be developed if the one in its current state managed to work on XP? Aren't there version differences between the current beta branch and main branch. despite both [presumably] using the same servers?

For one, security issues using the out dated Chromium (most likely one of the reasond for the change) as not just the library, but the log-in both use Chromium.

Using a hybrid isn't really an option as that causes security issues as well. Currently the only difference is the new chat system, but that will extend to the entire client at some point, but it is only as safe as it's weakes link and programming wise, that would be the out dated Chromium.

The chat servers most likely are running a beta version on a seperate system, so the current client is still using the current system, hence why XP and Vista Beta client can not use the new chat system.

Then there are purchase to consider. There is a security protocal that needs to be updated (can't remember the name, sorry) to v1.2 from 1.1 and that does not work on XP or Vista either, making it so one can not make a purchase on Steam using Vista or XP as well.

Fair enough.

I stand by my point that the act of creating a legacy client would be greatly appreciated, but I see what you're saying in that it may simply be more trouble than it's worth. I personally have no issue with Steam in its current state, but I know plenty of people have been begging for an overhaul.