Add option to create political threads in Steam forums; block politics by default at user's discretion

[𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪]

Please read this full OP before posting in case your contention is addressed.

I want to not have to leave Steam and use another forum just to have a conversation about politics. This is a feature that would be convenient and benefit me personally. I am sure other users would also no doubt enjoy being able to have a political conversation with other users, getting to know them and helping understand each other's views while also not having to leave this place.

The main problems with this idea, which I will address and solve, are three-fold:

1) Many users do not like politics and do not want politics associated with Steam, a place they go to specifically to escape said annoying stressful things.

2) Steam as a brand would be put at risk by political discussions being allowed as this would make Steam socially more negative of an experience and more divisive as a platform, leading to a worsened reputation.

3) Political threads targeting publishers or games on this platform could become a serious business problem for Steam, forcing Steam to look evil when it inevitably has to either ban those threads, or lose those publishers/games over outrage at said threads.

Let's start with 1)

By default, block the political section from view of users, but make it otherwise an option to post political threads in this political section. I personally would love for a political section to be allowed by default, but since Steam has a very strong reputation for fun and gaming that avoids divisive topics of politics so as to prevent a stressful atmosphere from brewing, it is understandable if the politics section must be blocked by default. Either way, just make it a feature in 'Store preferences' to toggle on or off viewing of the political forum section.

We allow porn games, we allow political games, we have those blocked by default. Just do what you're already doing with controversial games on this platform, to this political forum section. If it works for one, I say it would finely work for the other.

As for 2)

I am fully allowed to download pornographic and political games on Steam. I can play games where I brutally murder in a realistic and horrible fashion human beings. These things would be a problem for Steam's reputation if they were shown by default, but they are not. Just as should be the case for a future politics forum section, these games are blocked from view unless you the user explicitly tell Steam to show them. Viewing such content is stressful and disgusting for many people, but if you say you want to see it, then you should be allowed to see it.

This political discussion would be limited insofar as racism and similar are blocked on this platform, and I would just bite the bullet and tolerate that such discussions surrounding racism would often be censored by this rule, even if the argument is only subjectively classified as racist even when it is not. That is a bullet worth biting, in exchange for having some degree of political discourse allowed on a great all-in-one platform like Steam.

Besides, we already have microphones allowed in online games where people ramble off whatever they want to, and we don't much care about it since they can largely be muted. Essentially, there's already politics in many mic chats, there's already politics in many games, there's already lots of controversial elements in games, and 100% of these are a non-issue because: it is YOUR CHOICE as a user to view this content that is often BY DEFAULT blocked. Since politics would also be your call to view or not on this platform like everything else, it's thus not a problem.

3) Solution???

Block politics-section threads that target publishers or games. This is not a pretty solution, but it's better than having no politics at all. If at a later time Steam believes the benefits outweigh the risks, this can always be enabled later. But, I think Steam would practically speaking have to block this specific topic in order to prevent publishers/games from leaving and in turn spawning negative PR for Valve. It is better to offer a limited feature of political discussion, than to block it completely.

Here's some benefits Steam would gain from having a politics section

1) You don't have to go to another forum just to have a political discussion, which is convenient.

Nuff said -nice not to have to open extra stuff if you don't have to.

2) If a government tries doing something that affects Steam, its publishers, its services, its games, or its users, a politics section would allow us to organize and act.

Steam, you as a corporation have to spend money lobbying or getting organizations on your side if you ever want to address such problems as things are. But, if you had a forum section that allowed politics, you could both make political posts on such matters and have it fit into the forum appropriately, AND users could quickly organized ORGANICALLY without you having to resort to tapping lobbyists or allies. Maybe I'm misrepresenting what Steam's exact techniques for addressing political issues are in a government, but I think either way it would be useful for them to have users organize on their own platform in an organic voluntary fashion.

3) Political analysis of games would be nice.

I'm buying these games, I'm using your forum, and many of these games have strong political undertones and ideas. Why should I be blocked from discussing these political themes? If the politics section is blocked by default and only has users that voluntarily agree to join it, then it stands to reason that this should not be an issue.

Now, if any of you find added issues to this idea, or believe there are upsides or other aspects worth mentioning, please 100% bring it up. I fully understand hate for politics, but at the same time, politics affects whether this platform exists and whether we as people exist, so it might be a topic worth allowing if a user opts into a politics section just as you can already opt into mature games.

[Nx Machina]

@ EpycWyn

Did any of my posts indicate I agreed with you? No.

Clear it needs changing?

The only thing that is clear is you WANT this to change which is NOT a suggestion nor idea and you literally posted the guidelnes and rules forbidding it.

Accept the following - Life is full of yes and no, and this is a definite NO.

You also missed you agree to the guidelines and rules when using these forums but believe user discretion should override moderation of the forums.

Do others need to agree? No.

Discussion forum NOT affirmation forum and others can point out the obvious flaws as after all differing opinions make for conversation.

[𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪]

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

@ EpycWyn

Clear it needs changing?

The only thing that is clear is you WANT this to change which is NOT a suggestion nor idea and you literally posted the guidelnes and rules forbidding it. So accept the following - Life is full of yes and no, and this is a definite NO.

You also missed you agree to the guidelines and rules when using these forums but believe user discretion should override moderation of the forums.

Do others need to agree? No.

Discussion forum NOT affirmation forum and others can point out the obvious flaws as after all differing opinions make for conversation.

It feels like you are replying to someone else as my posts have under no uncertain terms implored responders to point out issues where possible and at no point pressed for or against affirmation of this idea, apart from me expressing my support for the idea coming to pass.

It feels a smidge rudimentary in thought to imply that suggesting a change does not constitute a suggestion, and that the idea of change is not an idea. For that matter, if change is off the table, what could be suggested that would NOT involve change? Any new idea involves changing the status quo of how the site previously was. Though, it hurts me that I have to explain this, as it is a tad self-explanatory, with all due respect.

[Nx Machina]

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

:papyruswacky:

:papyrus:

It feels like you are replying to someone else as my posts have under no uncertain terms implored responders to point out issues where possible and at no point pressed for or against affirmation of this idea, apart from me expressing my support for the idea coming to pass.

It feels a smidge rudimentary in thought to imply that suggesting a change does not constitute a suggestion, and that the idea of change is not an idea. For that matter, if change is off the table, what could be suggested that would NOT involve change? Any new idea involves changing the status quo of how the site previously was. Though, it hurts me that I have to explain this, as it is a tad self-explanatory, with all due respect.

Ye, forsooth, verily or to put it another way.

I am definitely replying to you, and you are not liking the responses, so lets go through this again - The guidelines and rules FORBID political discussion which YOU clearly pointed out.

You could start or join a group or a blog but no you do NOT want to do that, but you do want the system to change for no other reason than you require it to, nothing more, nothing less, and why it is neither a suggestion nor idea.

You have already tried unsuccessfully to dismiss other opinions because they do not affirm your want and why affirmation is required by you - a circle you completed your self.

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

:resmile: Let's try to generate some more thoughtful, logical discourse and serious meaningful weighing of pros and cons of a hidden optional political forum section, as well as discuss any other relevant subjects if desirable to conversation.

What conversation is needed?

You affirmed - The guidelines and rules FORBID political discussion and that clarity is all that is needed to NOT change the system to accommodate YOUR political agenda.

As a sidenote: I only read the title and not the rhetoric.

[Brian9824]

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

We allow porn games, we allow political games, we have those blocked by default. Just do what you're already doing with controversial games on this platform, to this political forum section. If it works for one, I say it would finely work for the other.

Completely false, Political games are not blocked at all, nor are any games blocked for being controversial. Adult games are blocked for legal reasons, nothing more.

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

:crate: I am fully allowed to download pornographic and political games on Steam. I can play games where I brutally murder in a realistic and horrible fashion human beings. These things would be a problem for Steam's reputation if they were shown by default, but they are not.

Completely false. There is no blocking of violent games, only games of a pornographic nature.

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

Just as should be the case for a future politics forum section, these games are blocked from view unless you the user explicitly tell Steam to show them. Viewing such content is stressful and disgusting for many people, but if you say you want to see it, then you should be allowed to see it.

Again false, in fact most of the world is fine with nudity and sex and most people wouldn't consider it disgusting

Your making a lot of random assumptions that aren't remotely based in facts. Political threads cause controversy, fighting, etc and squeezing them all into one section would just create an incredibly toxic section of Steam. There is a reason they aren't allowed in the first place.

[Walach]

I would say that everything boils down to politics in the end. You can "twist" anything to anything and nothing is easier than politics.

The only problems I see in politics is when people say that those who vote Z are Y because X and gets "angry". This happens in everything but I believe politics are just easier to get "off track" and in, for example, Valve doesn't want to bother with it all.

You shouldn't be able to talk about something people find bad but you should be able to talk about why you think something is bad. ;)

A lot what you said I don't agree on how you see it but, hey ho, I don't want to bother with that as it's not about that, in my eyes. :P

[wuddih]

trump did 7/11 as an inside job.

that is as politics as it will ever get here.

[Crazy Tiger]

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

I am hopeful that thoughtful discussion will prevail on Steam.

It will. Just not about politics.

[Radene]

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

Nx Machina eredeti hozzászólása:

@ EpycWyn

Clear it needs changing?

The only thing that is clear is you WANT this to change which is NOT a suggestion nor idea and you literally posted the guidelnes and rules forbidding it. So accept the following - Life is full of yes and no, and this is a definite NO.

You also missed you agree to the guidelines and rules when using these forums but believe user discretion should override moderation of the forums.

Do others need to agree? No.

Discussion forum NOT affirmation forum and others can point out the obvious flaws as after all differing opinions make for conversation.

:papyruswacky:

:papyrus:

It feels like you are replying to someone else as my posts have under no uncertain terms implored responders to point out issues where possible and at no point pressed for or against affirmation of this idea, apart from me expressing my support for the idea coming to pass.

It feels a smidge rudimentary in thought to imply that suggesting a change does not constitute a suggestion, and that the idea of change is not an idea. For that matter, if change is off the table, what could be suggested that would NOT involve change? Any new idea involves changing the status quo of how the site previously was. Though, it hurts me that I have to explain this, as it is a tad self-explanatory, with all due respect.

Simple fact is, no matter how well you dress your suggestion, no matter what kind of a vocabulary and eloquence you use, you are still failing to understand the distinction between form and content.

To a perceptive eye, it sure does appear as if you subscribe to the stance that eloquent form implies quality content. That is, however, not the case, and as loath as I am to say this directly, your own participation in the thread kind of demonstrates that.

You're good with words, that's true; but you also appear to think that alone makes your opinions, wishes, or stances more valid, more "worthy", than those held by people who use simpler language. You need to learn some rhetoric humility if you wish to develop your public speaking skills further.

You also seem to have not yet learned that "debate" is not "discussion". There are platforms elsewhere for "political debate" where people pretend that they are great orators and political philosophers merely because they have a solid rhetoric form.

[𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪]

brian9824 eredeti hozzászólása:

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

We allow porn games, we allow political games, we have those blocked by default. Just do what you're already doing with controversial games on this platform, to this political forum section. If it works for one, I say it would finely work for the other.

Completely false, Political games are not blocked at all, nor are any games blocked for being controversial. Adult games are blocked for legal reasons, nothing more.

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

I am fully allowed to download pornographic and political games on Steam. I can play games where I brutally murder in a realistic and horrible fashion human beings. These things would be a problem for Steam's reputation if they were shown by default, but they are not.

Completely false. There is no blocking of violent games, only games of a pornographic nature.

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

Just as should be the case for a future politics forum section, these games are blocked from view unless you the user explicitly tell Steam to show them. Viewing such content is stressful and disgusting for many people, but if you say you want to see it, then you should be allowed to see it.

Again false, in fact most of the world is fine with nudity and sex and most people wouldn't consider it disgusting

Your making a lot of random assumptions that aren't remotely based in facts. Political threads cause controversy, fighting, etc and squeezing them all into one section would just create an incredibly toxic section of Steam. There is a reason they aren't allowed in the first place.

By default mature games on Steam are blocked on the user's end unless you intentionally tell Steam to show it to you. That means yes, mature content IS blocked by default on Steam. You are forced to age verify in order to see said content, as it otherwise is not shown via age-based blocking. One can of course lie, but you are expected to NOT do that to the age-blocking filters.

wuddih eredeti hozzászólása:

trump did 7/11 as an inside job.

that is as politics as it will ever get here.

Or was it?

[Brian9824]

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

By default mature games on Steam are blocked on the user's end unless you intentionally tell Steam to show it to you. That means yes, mature content IS blocked by default on Steam.

False, mature games are not blocked, ADULT games are and that is for a LEGAL requirement. Mature games are not the same as Adult only games.

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

You are forced to age verify in order to see said content, as it otherwise is not shown via age-based blocking. One can of course lie, but you are expected to NOT do that to the age-blocking filters.

Yep, which has nothing at all to do with blocking political threads which have no legal requirements and are simply not wanted at all because of the toxicity they cause.

[nullable]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, user content is treated differently than developer content. Developers can do and say things in games that users aren't allowed to mirror on the forums. That's not a mistake or an oversight. Politics is one of those things.

And I'm not convinced there is an argument where all groups (developers and users) must be treated identically in all aspects across Steam.

Although... if that were the case and you think users should have the same rules as developers... Give Steam a $100 and you can have your own vaporware game forum and moderate it as you see fit. Problem solved.

[𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪]

Snakub Plissken eredeti hozzászólása:

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, user content is treated differently than developer content. Developers can do and say things in games that users aren't allowed to mirror on the forums. That's not a mistake or an oversight. Politics is one of those things.

And I'm not convinced there is an argument where all groups (developers and users) must be treated identically in all aspects across Steam.

Although... if that were the case and you think users should have the same rules as developers... Give Steam a $100 and you can have your own vaporware game forum and moderate it as you see fit. Problem solved.

Giving an award because that would be a quite novel solution. Just open a game inside of Steam that happens to be a Steam forum, and you don't have to leave. Though, I would need the game to 1) archive everything online just as a normal forum does and 2) have sensible moderation tolerant of dissent and politics including in controversial topics of race, gender, religion, etcetera.

This would not be my ideal solution, but it is the best hypothetical alternative solution I have heard so far, in the event Steam/Valve insist on never fixing their lack of a political forum feature.

[Aachen]

I think Snakub Plissken wasn’t recommending you write a program (game) to emulate a forum so much as you become a developer, release a game on Steam, and then moderate its hub.

[Brian9824]

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

This would not be my ideal solution, but it is the best hypothetical alternative solution I have heard so far, in the event Steam/Valve insist on never fixing their lack of a political forum feature.

Nothing broken, so nothing to fix. Just because you want to discuss politics on a game site doesn't mean they should allow it.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

:zagpls: I want to not have to leave Steam and use another forum just to have a conversation about politics. This is a feature that would be convenient and benefit me personally. I am sure other users would also no doubt enjoy being able to have a political conversation with other users, getting to know them and helping understand each other's views while also not having to leave this place.

I'm sure you and many other people want to talk politics, and I see you addressed three problems with the idea (1. users who don't want to see politics; 2. politics not fit for Steam as a brand; 3. political threads can involve targeting publishers/games), but I don't think you've addressed the biggest problem with political threads:

They spiral out of control, into huge arguments. People who largely don't know each other don't actually end up "getting to know others and understanding each others' views" -- they just end up lining up on battle lines in arguments. And such threads become headaches for mods to deal with.

The only way I've found to prevent this is to limit access to such threads to only people who have some sort of emotional detachment from political issues, or at least are able to talk as if they have such an emotional detachment.

But, given how strongly people feel about political issues, that's basically not going to happen, except within certain communities that are much smaller than the global Steam forums.

As you noted, it's actually already possible to discuss politics on Steam. Just not on the global forum. If you want to discuss the political implications of a given game, for example, each Steam game has its own dedicated forum, managed by the developers, and you can try starting a thread there. (Remember to try making your thread respectful, well-thought-out, peaceable, and non-flamey, for best results.) You can also make your own Steam group for such, which doesn't reach as many people, but given the problems that political threads run into when there's a huge audience that can participate, a restricted membership might be better. And you can also make a Steam group chat.

And of course you can discuss political issues about games and other things in other social networks. Reddit is a ready-made meta-forum platform which has a number of subreddits for gaming; I remember at least one that is dedicated to serious discussions about games. And you can make your own too. You can also make your own dedicated forum, but that would take time to grow. Discord chats are another option.

(As a sidenote, I think smaller communities would actually give you the chance to get to know and understand the people in the communities as people, rather than as faceless mouths that simply spout political opinions.)

I think it's useful to think about the rule against political topics not as a "D:< you are not allowed to discuss this D:<" but rather as a "this is why we can't have nice things" -- meaning that we could have them except for the fact that with such a huge number of people who can participate there will inevitably be some people who stink up the thread and someone needs to deal with the garbage, meaning that it'll be unnecessarily burdensome for the mods. Heck, people who don't want to talk politics already know to avoid places, so it's not like you can force them to participate to dilute the impact of the trashy posts.

EpycWyn eredeti hozzászólása:

:sentry: 2) If a government tries doing something that affects Steam, its publishers, its services, its games, or its users, a politics section would allow us to organize and act.

:sentry: Steam, you as a corporation have to spend money lobbying or getting organizations on your side if you ever want to address such problems as things are. But, if you had a forum section that allowed politics, you could both make political posts on such matters and have it fit into the forum appropriately, AND users could quickly organized ORGANICALLY without you having to resort to tapping lobbyists or allies. Maybe I'm misrepresenting what Steam's exact techniques for addressing political issues are in a government, but I think either way it would be useful for them to have users organize on their own platform in an organic voluntary fashion.

This is one curious angle, and I guess it could be useful -- Valve could organize its users to take collective action on certain issues -- but it's also something that might backfire badly.