Too many Early Access games

[c0n_art1st.tv]

I was on the store home page and about 75 percent of what I saw were Early Access and Open Beta games. Come on, Steam. I'd rather purchase games that have been fully finished or pre-purchase fully finished games. I have DayZ on the grounds that I had the mod so I was aware of what I was getting, but I still feel like we're handing over tons of cash for something that may NOT be finished. DayZ even states that the beta probably won't be out in 2014.

I'd like to see a lot more polished games or finished on the main page and maybe have a link to Early Access sort of like Greenlight has. It's just getting out of hand.

[Jade]

WillDrug eredeti hozzászólása:

What IS wrong is that
1) developers are getting lazier and some games might not even be finished and still profit; it's worse than kickstarter in that regard
2) featured items include Early Access games sometimes without any type of warning before you actually go to the store page;
3) Steam generally needs quality control

1) Got any proof for that? Common sense would point to the exact opposite. Since devs already have the money they are under more pressure to deliver what they promised. Also please understand that no one is getting rich overnight by selling a few early access games on Steam. Devs aren't going to take your money and run with it because there really isn't all that much money to run off with. Most devs make games because they want to and they know that their reputation will be forever ruined if they just take the money and abandon their games.

2) It would be nice if they added a similar banner like what DLC has, but honestly this isn't a huge problem. So you wasted a second from your life looking at a store page for an early access game, is it really that big of a deal?

3) Steam is a store. Quality control is not their problem. Do you also complain to Gamestop for selling games that you don't approve?

[WillDrug]

Jade eredeti hozzászólása:

WillDrug eredeti hozzászólása:

What IS wrong is that
1) developers are getting lazier and some games might not even be finished and still profit; it's worse than kickstarter in that regard
2) featured items include Early Access games sometimes without any type of warning before you actually go to the store page;
3) Steam generally needs quality control

1) Got any proof for that? Common sense would point to the exact opposite. Since devs already have the money they are under more pressure to deliver what they promised. Also please understand that no one is getting rich overnight by selling a few early access games on Steam. Devs aren't going to take your money and run with it because there really isn't all that much money to run off with. Most devs make games because they want to and they know that their reputation will be forever ruined if they just take the money and abandon their games.

2) It would be nice if they added a similar banner like what DLC has, but honestly this isn't a huge problem. So you wasted a second from your life looking at a store page for an early access game, is it really that big of a deal?

3) Steam is a store. Quality control is not their problem. Do you also complain to Gamestop for selling games that you don't approve?

1) No, actually that is not
Pressure is when you DON'T have money and need to get critically acclaimed; when your game already profited there is less pressure
and there are several exmaples of games which were in Early Access from the very start of that thing still in development, getting minor updates once a month;

2) imagine featured DLC on the front page then; already half the titles are early access;
that means less full games there that means less variety in steam face as it were;
I didn't waste a second looking at EAG, I didn't see 5 out of 10 normal games which may have been in its palce
finished games which may have been featured;
that's not good at all

3) it's not just a store, think about it;
would you ever find an indie game there? may be one-man-developed game?.. can you choose as a community which games Gamestop will sell? NO.

Steam is a platform, not just a retailer; Retailer works with publishers and if their product is returned much they _ban_ that publisher;

Steam doesn't ban nobody and isn't doing proper returns anytime soon;

so yeah, steam needs quality control because it's not inherent in the system as in regular retailers.

[WillDrug]

btw, point 1 and 2 of my argument coalesce -- because if you are not on the front page less people notice you and you are getting less buys;

and if you are on the front page you are critisized... but if you are in early access you _cannot be_ because EVERYTHING is a subject to change.

that means developer can get a bullet-proof money-maker on the front steam page;
at least kcikstarter always has _only a promise_ and is a funding project, not a digital game distributor

[Black Blade]

WillDrug eredeti hozzászólása:

1) No, actually that is not
Pressure is when you DON'T have money and need to get critically acclaimed; when your game already profited there is less pressure
and there are several exmaples of games which were in Early Access from the very start of that thing still in development, getting minor updates once a month;

2) imagine featured DLC on the front page then; already half the titles are early access;
that means less full games there that means less variety in steam face as it were;
I didn't waste a second looking at EAG, I didn't see 5 out of 10 normal games which may have been in its palce
finished games which may have been featured;
that's not good at all

3) it's not just a store, think about it;
would you ever find an indie game there? may be one-man-developed game?.. can you choose as a community which games Gamestop will sell? NO.

Steam is a platform, not just a retailer; Retailer works with publishers and if their product is returned much they _ban_ that publisher;

Steam doesn't ban nobody and isn't doing proper returns anytime soon;

so yeah, steam needs quality control because it's not inherent in the system as in regular retailers.

1) ok so they get updated... so there are working on it, i mean will you like to get a update every 5 minutes so you cant play the game? and they cant look for the bugs?

2) Half of the titles? i think you going a little far there
More then that if it really boder you all that much use the browser and add the Enhanced Steam[www.enhancedsteam.com] that will do it for you

3) Steam is somewhat more then the average store.. ya but in the end its a store not matter how you look at it (look up the client were it says "Store")

Also i think there were some games that have been ban and refunded on Steam

[Jade]

WillDrug eredeti hozzászólása:

and there are several exmaples of games which were in Early Access from the very start of that thing still in development, getting minor updates once a month;

Yup. That is how game developement works. Were you unclear on that? I keep having to repeat this but it is a good example; Minecraft was in developement (sort of like early access) for two years.

And for 3), yes, it is. Steam is a store. Quality control is the game devs responsibility.

[WillDrug]

okay, I shall stipulate on early access, because some games do take that much to develop. that is still ignoring my money-making argument, which is basically that EAG on the frontpage hurts other devs.

Also, refunds are a _RARE_ thing. Steam refunds games only when they are SO horrid that they stir up the drama to the sky;

And IF steam is a store they sure don't give a heck about false advertising (for instance, Orion Dino Beatdown), buggy releases, and any of that;
So they DO need quality control; either as a store or as a platform;

as a store it needs to BAN people without at least a publisher _name_, they should keep track on bad games, refund them when requested (because please read the law about consumer protection) and such;

and if they are a platform they can skip game refunds and such but the ystill should keep track on bad publisheers and devlopers and don't let just anyone on their system;

Advertisement is on _their_ pages, even if it's written by the developer; If anyone can write anything on steam - I can't trust steam pages; If I can't trust steam pages - the hell would I want to use it?

The idea is -- no big publisher would false advertise a game just like that and release it in a box just to have it returned and refunded; They CAN do it through steam because credit card chargeback would get you _BANNED_ on steam.
So you have no way to refund your game until community rises up;


So, basically, that's the problem with early access - even _less_ quality control;
-------
P.S. yeah, right, many games don't have an actual publisher and some of them even have YOU as a publisher. yes , YOU. You greenlight a concept and that basically says "I approve this" when you haven't seen the game yet;
That does not excuse a crappy game when it comes out, it should be controlled _separetely_

[Satoru]

WillDrug eredeti hozzászólása:

okay, I shall stipulate on early access, because some games do take that much to develop. that is still ignoring my money-making argument, which is basically that EAG on the frontpage hurts other devs.

Considering your 'money making argument' is based on several false premises and simply blatant fear mongering, how is it even relevant.

And IF steam is a store they sure don't give a heck about false advertising (for instance, Orion Dino Beatdown), buggy releases, and any of that;
So they DO need quality control; either as a store or as a platform;

Because buggy games have never existed before Steam?

as a store it needs to BAN people without at least a publisher _name_, they should keep track on bad games,

So what you're saying is games like these with no publishers should have been banned from Steam

FTL
Dungeons of Dredmor
Legend of Grimrock
Torchlight 2

That makes TOTAL sense

refund them when requested (because please read the law about consumer protection) and such;

You should perhaps read the law before invoking it to make a point. UK and EU Consumer protection laws ENFORCE the no-refund policy. Said policy is 100% legal.

and if they are a platform they can skip game refunds and such but the ystill should keep track on bad publisheers and devlopers and don't let just anyone on their system;

What 'bad publishers' are you even talking about?

Advertisement is on _their_ pages, even if it's written by the developer; If anyone can write anything on steam - I can't trust steam pages; If I can't trust steam pages - the hell would I want to use it?

Why woudl steam write the marketing copy for a game they didn't develop, publish or have any hand in making what so ever. You might as well be writing the marketing copy for the next Ferrari if that's your logic.

The idea is -- no big publisher would false advertise a game just like that and release it in a box just to have it returned and refunded;

Really? Like horrible buggy terrible games never ever existed before Steam right? The most infamous game ever made Big Rigs was available AT RETAIL.

Not to mention that all stores have a 'no refund' on opened games/software anyway. Unless the disc is melted inside the box (which it was when I purchased TIE Fighter back in the day) you weren't getting a refund anyway.

YOU as a publisher. yes , YOU. You greenlight a concept and that basically says "I approve this" when you haven't seen the game yet;

You don't actually know what a publisher does do you?

[crunchyfrog]

I'd just like to add to Satoru's wise words there that although UK and EU laws do enforce the no-refund policy, but it does NOT when there's fault as an issue. The Consumer Rights Act 2013 was introduced to tighten up the law and give you the same rights to digital goods as with physical goods.

Of course, if you don't like what you're purchased, or made a mistake, then true you are not entitled to any refund. If the game is faulty then you are. So what determines you to claim a fault? Simply remember this - SADFART:
Goods must be Satisfactory, As Described, Fit for purpose, And last a Reasonable amount of Time.

Hope that clears that up - your statutory rights ALWAYS overrule any agreement terms.


On a separate note, where another said "not this thread again", I think that's fairly indicative of part of the problem here. This topic gets brought up because such people don't read the threads and bother searching. They're obviously the same sort of people who haven't read into what Early Access entails and are unwilling to blame themselves for this.

Of course, there are people such as WillDrug here who are naive (probably due to youth or inexperience too), but there's an awful lot of these threads ;)


Don't also forget, Satoru, that if we use WillDrug's logic that developers without publishers should be banned from Steam, then we wouldn't have an awful lot of Valve games on here, would we? :P

[Frankie]

Jade eredeti hozzászólása:

con_artist eredeti hozzászólása:

Come on, Steam. I'd rather purchase games that have been fully finished or pre-purchase fully finished games.

What's stopping you?

con_artist eredeti hozzászólása:

but I still feel like we're handing over tons of cash for something that may NOT be finished.

Stop giving money for things that you believe won't be finished.

falloutking97 eredeti hozzászólása:

I'd really like to know what I'm getting before I actually purchase it. I'd like a finished product with features that stick.

The beautiful thing is that you can wait for early access games to be finished and buy them then.

Ya, pretty much this. SImple as this is people still feel the need to make it seem like Early Access is so terrible. No one is forcing you to give them your money. Just wait till the game goes "live" then buy it if you are that worried. I cannot understand why some people feel they are being forced to buy these games.

I guess its like everything else nowadays.....blame everyone but the person responsible???

[crunchyfrog]

Vierzig eredeti hozzászólása:

well surprising i would have thought there be more people who'd have similar views than myself but good to know that most people seem to be happy with the system the way it is

Don't make the foolish assumption of trying to make things black and white. Assuming that the people correcting and answering your points means that they AGREE with Early Access and think it's perfect is fuzzy logic at best.

I for one have some reservations about Early Access, but everything you've been told is spot on.

[Satoru]

Note that I feel Early Access is an industry game changer in terms of how developers work on games. Just like Steam shook up the retailer control. Have super niche game no one has ever heard of? Yeah good luck getting Walmart to stock copies of it. With steam, presto your super ultra niche war game now can be totally commercially viable. What you need 2 more months to really polish your game? Well too bad! You have to meet the retail release date hell or high water.

As such Early Access/Kickstarter is a shakeup on the publisher side. Have a game but don't have a few hundred grand to ffund a startup? Publishers giving you the cold shoulder because they think "Rogue like" means you're making a new Thief game? If you have a good concept and can market the game properly (and this is key because peole dont throw money at you just because you look good unless you're David Beckham) you can raise funds to not have to starve to death while making a game.

Early Access I think is at least more viable than Kickstarter. at least you have to have 'something' to play with Early Access. And you can make an informed choice seeign videos, screenshots, reviews, etc.

I think there's a need ofr 'education' for the concept since it's so new. This is part of that teething process. Eventually we'll likely fall into a more stable equilibrium.

[crunchyfrog]

Satoru eredeti hozzászólása:

Note that I feel Early Access is an industry game changer in terms of how developers work on games. Just like Steam shook up the retailer control. Have super niche game no one has ever heard of? Yeah good luck getting Walmart to stock copies of it. With steam, presto your super ultra niche war game now can be totally commercially viable. What you need 2 more months to really polish your game? Well too bad! You have to meet the retail release date hell or high water.

As such Early Access/Kickstarter is a shakeup on the publisher side. Have a game but don't have a few hundred grand to ffund a startup? Publishers giving you the cold shoulder because they think "Rogue like" means you're making a new Thief game? If you have a good concept and can market the game properly (and this is key because peole dont throw money at you just because you look good unless you're David Beckham) you can raise funds to not have to starve to death while making a game.

Early Access I think is at least more viable than Kickstarter. at least you have to have 'something' to play with Early Access. And you can make an informed choice seeign videos, screenshots, reviews, etc.

I think there's a need ofr 'education' for the concept since it's so new. This is part of that teething process. Eventually we'll likely fall into a more stable equilibrium.

Absolutely agreed.

I don't see much difference between this issue now and the lack of understanding and that of when Steam and other digital stores started where some people were making blatantly silly comments about them.

Remember the old "if you pay for a download, you don't get to keep your game" nonsense?

[Satoru]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Remember the old "if you pay for a download, you don't get to keep your game" nonsense?

The old Uplay store did that via Digital River. You had 30 DAYS to download the game. After that you needed Download INSURANCE?!?!?! to download it again.... That makes StarForce root-kit DRM seem almost quaint by comparison.

[crunchyfrog]

Satoru eredeti hozzászólása:

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Remember the old "if you pay for a download, you don't get to keep your game" nonsense?

The old Uplay store did that via Digital River. You had 30 DAYS to download the game. After that you needed Download INSURANCE?!?!?! to download it again.... That makes StarForce root-kit DRM seem almost quaint by comparison.

Oh my word - I wasn't aware of that.

I often make pointed comments about the video game industry at it's worst seeming amateur sometimes, but that .... well, it beggars belief.

[Satoru]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Oh my word - I wasn't aware of that.

I often make pointed comments about the video game industry at it's worst seeming amateur sometimes, but that .... well, it beggars belief.

well to be fair to the 'games industry' its a Digital River policy not something from Uplay. A lot of online shops use digital river though you see this in quite a few places. Especially, for anti-virus products for some unknown reason...

Just google "extended download service" and you'll see. Uplay now has basically an 'integrated' client so it can ... wow download games you purchased via the Uplay client! That's black magic!

Steam ain't perfect but it was 'ahead of it's time' if only because the competition was trying to kill mammoths using sponges while steam was using a slightly sharpened stick.