Loot Boxes deemed gambling and illegal in Belgium, Netherlands....go under intense scrutiny elsewhere!

[BlackSpawn]

Many of us have been aware for a long time of the fact that loot boxes, key crate RNG and similar microtransactions are essentially paid games of chance for items of money worth (or reasonable proxy) aka. gambling. These virtual slot machines are introduced into games as a money sink: One that makes the title esentially have no price ceiling nor cooldown between additional purchases or expenditures; One that preys especially on minors and on at risk and vulnerable individuals but ultimately on the population at large under the pretense of an "optional" addition to a title; One that is quite literally shoehorned into the otherwise functional title with a singular purpose. However, these systems are invariably designed in such a way as to goad the player into partaking in the system (either via drops, market, ingame store, key crate gambling, paid mods via community made cosmetics, etc.) and use the game itself as a neverending loop of marketing by exposing the customer to such items and monetization. The customer makes him/herself suggestible to such conditioning and manipulation by surrendering to the virtual world that is supposed to be an inocuous, fun and enjoyable experience rather than a carefully designed and thinly veiled virtual casino / online marketplace inside a game.

WELL....

FINALLY, the gaming population at large has made their voices heard about these anticonsumer, predatory practices! After the fallout from EA's poorly conceived implementation of paid to win loot boxes tied to game progression on Star Wars Battlefront 2, a number of countries and governmental bodies / gambling authorities all over the world have begun to pay notice to said practice...and some are acting!
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-battlefront-2s-loot-box-controversy-expl/1100-6455155/

Hawaii introduced several loot box related bills:
https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/13/hawaii-loot-boxes-bills/

Netherlands was the first country to classify certain loot boxes as gambling, and illegal. They gave video game publishers a timeline to REMOVE illegal loot boxes by mid June 2018:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-19-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-are-gambling

Belgium soon followed and declared that the penalty would be a fine AND potentially prison for those that violate the law:
https://screenrant.com/loot-boxes-illegal-belgium-netherlands/
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306

UK Gambling Authority and the US overall have lagged behind in their consideration of loot boxes as gambling. Only the Washington Gambling Commission gave Valve a notice about them, and Valve responded by disabling external websites that used Steam API to gamble with Steam Marketables but stopped at that.
https://www.polygon.com/2016/10/5/13176244/washington-gambling-commission-demands-end-to-valve-cs-go-skin
https://www.polygon.com/2016/10/18/13318326/valve-fires-back-at-washington-state-gambling-commission-over-cs-go-betting

A case raised in US courts where Valve was named in the suit related to "illegal gambling" in CSGO was thrown out of court / did not proceed.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2017/04/04/illegal-gambling-case-concerning-csgo-is-kicked-out-of-court/#619833221495

Additional european countries are scrutinizing loot boxes and predatory monetization of the gambling type in games (Of note, the de facto European Union capital is located in Brussels, Belgium) and Netherland's Gaming Authority stated their interest in loot box legislation / regulation throughout the European Union member states.

Summary of attempts at loot box legislation in USA, including the latest bill introduced in Minnesota on 4/24/2018.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0
Loot box bill introduced in Minnesota legislature: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=HF4460&version=0&session=ls90&session_year=2018&session_number=0


Its a good day where, finally, legislations around the world are seeing loot boxes for what they really are. What took so long!? If one thing is clear from all of this, is that developers, publishers and storefronts cannot be trusted to have a fair, conscientous and morally minded limit with regards to predatory monetization in their games...even if they are PAID and not F2P.

Videos discussing the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNiVSj9uzTw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JygNQ_n22U

Relevant Opinion Article (2/2018):
https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/20/loot-boxes-should-face-gambling-regulation/

Official Statement Belgian Gaming Commission:
https://www.koengeens.be/fr/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving
Google english translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https://www.koengeens.be/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving&prev=search

Official Statement Dutch Gaming Authority:
https://www.kansspelautoriteit.nl/publish/library/6/press_release_loot_boxes_19_april_2018_-_en.pdf

[Spawn of Totoro]

Jo Schmo eredeti hozzászólása:

thats why i mentioned untradable / unmarketable. You'd buy to keep.

Yes, but there would be no need for the market part, only the untradable/unmarketable part.

The loot boxes would still exist as well as the keys needed to unlock them. By just removing the transfering, it then complies with Dutch law.

See what I mean by the loot boxes don't seem to be the real issue with this?

[Coolranch]

Gabe Newell should be locked up for selling gambling to minors.

[Professor Hugedix]

Spawn of Totoro eredeti hozzászólása:

Jo Schmo eredeti hozzászólása:

thats why i mentioned untradable / unmarketable. You'd buy to keep.

Yes, but there would be no need for the market part, only the untradable/unmarketable part.

The loot boxes would still exist as well as the keys needed to unlock them. By just removing the transfering, it then complies with Dutch law.

See what I mean by the loot boxes don't seem to be the real issue with this?

it seemed pretty clear to me that the "untradable" argument was used specifically to render the items gained from loot boxes as "real enough" to be considered a problem. If loot boxes hadn't been the real issue, this approach to dealing with them would not be required.

[Reported.]

Coolranch eredeti hozzászólása:

Gabe Newell should be locked up for selling gambling to minors.

That is a major understatement.

[SpicyPepperoni]

Coolranch eredeti hozzászólása:

Gabe Newell should be locked up for selling gambling to minors.

How do you sell gambling? LOL

[JellyPuff]

If trading gets restricted, like it is now in Netherlands for CS:GO and DotA (Valve, again, did the absolute minimum work required there), it doesn't change much as long as you can still pay real money for lootboxes. It remains gambling by definition, even if it isn't by law. Not to mention how predatory they are to consumers.

[Pan Paka Pan]

This dutch tactic actually works better for companies and worse for consumers.
Now companies can make direct primary revenue from gambling with the added feature that consumers can no longer try to save a part of their money back by reselling unwanted stuff.
In other words, it became for them worse than TCG, where you buy packs of cards and sells the ones you don’t want, as it’s the most common practice for any TCG worldwide. Now the dutch says: no, you can’t sell anymore, only buy.

More profit for companies, more junk for the consumer.
It’s all business to them.

[Black Blade]

Alpha Centauri eredeti hozzászólása:

This dutch tactic actually works better for companies and worse for consumers.
Now companies can make direct primary revenue from gambling with the added feature that consumers can no longer try to save a part of their money back by reselling unwanted stuff.
In other words, it became for them worse than TCG, where you buy packs of cards and sells the ones you don’t want, as it’s the most common practice for any TCG worldwide. Now the dutch says: no, you can’t sell anymore, only buy.

More profit for companies, more junk for the consumer.
It’s all business to them.

Time will tell, but if you cant trade or sell that may make the buying habits lower at least for some
I mean how many players out there open lootboxs in hope to get some rare item not so they can keep it, but so they can sale it?
If that selling is gone, how many users will really keep trying for this really rare items when they know their money will not come back from it except as an item?

[Pan Paka Pan]

Black Blade eredeti hozzászólása:

Alpha Centauri eredeti hozzászólása:

This dutch tactic actually works better for companies and worse for consumers.
Now companies can make direct primary revenue from gambling with the added feature that consumers can no longer try to save a part of their money back by reselling unwanted stuff.
In other words, it became for them worse than TCG, where you buy packs of cards and sells the ones you don’t want, as it’s the most common practice for any TCG worldwide. Now the dutch says: no, you can’t sell anymore, only buy.

More profit for companies, more junk for the consumer.
It’s all business to them.

Time will tell, but if you cant trade or sell that may make the buying habits lower at least for some
I mean how many players out there open lootboxs in hope to get some rare item not so they can keep it, but so they can sale it?
If that selling is gone, how many users will really keep trying for this really rare items when they know their money will not come back from it except as an item?

Just telling from my personal experience. I used to buy TCG card packs, a lot of them, cuz i knew i could trade or sell my cards and in the end i ended up with my perfect decks by trading selling and buying. Lootboxes in games i never wanted to buy cuz of that, the inability of trading/selling makes it a scam for me. You can end up with millions of unwanted stuff and you can’t trade or sell them. You bought them, it’s your propriety, or so the logic says, but no, mobile games with gacha (loot boxes) for some reason you pay for stuff but it’s not yours, that’s the ultimate gambling scam in my opinion.
Companies goes to great extends to ensure they cultivate a young herd with gambling addictions in mobile gacha games like Aura Kingdom and many other games. Things are accentuated with those “Special Rate Up Summon week”, now instead of having a 0.01% chance to pull the card you want, you have a “fantastic” double rate to pull.

If those things, summed with the concept that you can’t sell what you buy for, isn’t the ultimate gambling scam, then I don’t know what it is. It’s a plain “legal” crime that companies are pulling to maximize profits with very low effort/development and the young people have no clue about that, they only think it’s “shiny” and they want the rare stuff. Companies know this and profit from it.

Now the dutch is transforming steam loot boxes into mobile gacha games for maximum profit and ultimate scam of the consumer. It will make stuff even more rare to obtain and that’s where the young fall victim of the scam.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Professor Hugedix eredeti hozzászólása:

it seemed pretty clear to me that the "untradable" argument was used specifically to render the items gained from loot boxes as "real enough" to be considered a problem. If loot boxes hadn't been the real issue, this approach to dealing with them would not be required.

I disagree.

Loot Boxes are either gambling or not. Trading items is not the issues.

Removel of trading now means those users can not trade trading cards during the sales or even complete them with out sending money on games.

If the issue was loot boxes, then that could have been dealt with directly. Instead it is shutting down a whole section that users use and effects users who don't even use loot boxes.

It is a case of people wanting one thing, but getting another. Loot boxes are still a thing, can still be purchased by minors AND they now have more of a reason to purchase those loot boxes as it is the only way to get the random skin that they want. It encourages the issue, not resolves it.

It does, however, prevent selling on 3rd party sites (or cashing out) but the physiological aspect of gambling is still intact.

Alpha Centauri eredeti hozzászólása:

Now the dutch is transforming steam loot boxes into mobile gacha games for maximum profit and ultimate scam of the consumer. It will make stuff even more rare to obtain and that’s where the young fall victim of the scam.

Exactly. It does more harm then good when it comes to that issue.

"I want a knife!" Either spend a bit in the market for a cheap one or keep spending $2.49 on keys and keep hopping you get lucky.

The market, at least, helped alleviate some of the issue by making them accessible and guaranteed purchase. It feel that 3rd party sites were the main issue and now it is too late to deal with them about it.

[Insanity Claus]

I've said this before and I'll proabably keep saying this until I die: gamers seem to LOVE cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

Jellypuff eredeti hozzászólása:

If trading gets restricted, like it is now in Netherlands for CS:GO and DotA (Valve, again, did the absolute minimum work required there), it doesn't change much as long as you can still pay real money for lootboxes. It remains gambling by definition, even if it isn't by law. Not to mention how predatory they are to consumers.

This type of stringent, nanny-state regulation, that the vehemently anti-lootbox crowd wants, would be disasterous for many different businesses. Magic: The Gathering and all other TCGs would have to completely change their business model or be declared gambling. In fact, just about anything that involves a randomized reward would be under scrutiny, if the above-quoted "definition" of gambling werre enforced.

RiO eredeti hozzászólása:

Seriously; someone please look up what they get out of market transactions annually and then look up how much of those transactions can be attributed to DOTA and CS:Go? That's almost 100% assured a bi---g chunk of their income.

First off, if you want to make a point about something, perhaps YOU should look up the info to bolster your claims and then provide it. As for the ability to do so, you would have to look at volume of trades and do some wild speculating. Valve is a private company and doesn't have to publicly disclose where they get their money nor how much they get. While I'm sure Valve does make a nice chunk of money from their Marketplace fees, I'd be willing to bet that it pales in comparison to selling keys, let alone games from the Steam store.

RiO eredeti hozzászólása:

What this smells like is Valve doing the least amount of work possible to comply with Dutch gambling legislation, with an implementation that maximizes pain for Dutch players, while simultaneously playing innocent and directing public ire at the Dutch authorities, possibly to strengthen their own bargaining position in any future settlement out of court.

That would be, in a word; despicable.

What do you want Valve to do? Completely redesign the loot system of their games (TF2, DOTA2 and CS:GO all have lootboxes) and to do it solely for the Dutch market? What's the trade-off value for that? Is it worth the time and energy for Valve to even do that? Would it be better and easier for them to simply not have their F2P games available in the Netherlands?

[Tito Shivan]

Black Blade eredeti hozzászólása:

I mean how many players out there open lootboxs in hope to get some rare item not so they can keep it, but so they can sale it?
If that selling is gone, how many users will really keep trying for this really rare items when they know their money will not come back from it except as an item?

Look at Overwatch for an existing example.

[Pan Paka Pan]

BSLeavingLasVegas eredeti hozzászólása:

This type of stringent, nanny-state regulation, that the vehemently anti-lootbox crowd wants, would be disasterous for many different businesses. Magic: The Gathering and all other TCGs would have to completely change their business model or be declared gambling. In fact, just about anything that involves a randomized reward would be under scrutiny, if the above-quoted "definition" of gambling werre enforced.

Real TCGs aren't really "gambling" cuz you can sell and trade cards for profit, or to complete your deck. I was a heavy player of Magic The Gathering back in the days, and never I felt I was scammed by them. I always ended up trading or selling cards with friends so we could transform the unlucky card packs into something useful. It is/was a very healthy market.

Online games like gacha games/overwatch etc - that's the scam. You buy, but you are not the owner. They sell to you something that it's not yours. It's just absurd.

[Black Blade]

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

Look at Overwatch for an existing example.

Well sure but the game itself already cost a nice amount to start with
Beside that I am not saying its going to stop, what I am saying is that I think it may drop the amount of buys from it
I mean sure they keep buying stuff, but how many will buy something they cant trade away compere to how many will do it when they can

[Radene]

Spawn of Totoro eredeti hozzászólása:

Professor Hugedix eredeti hozzászólása:

it seemed pretty clear to me that the "untradable" argument was used specifically to render the items gained from loot boxes as "real enough" to be considered a problem. If loot boxes hadn't been the real issue, this approach to dealing with them would not be required.

I disagree.

Loot Boxes are either gambling or not. Trading items is not the issues.

Removel of trading now means those users can not trade trading cards during the sales or even complete them with out sending money on games.

If the issue was loot boxes, then that could have been dealt with directly. Instead it is shutting down a whole section that users use and effects users who don't even use loot boxes.

It is a case of people wanting one thing, but getting another. Loot boxes are still a thing, can still be purchased by minors AND they now have more of a reason to purchase those loot boxes as it is the only way to get the random skin that they want. It encourages the issue, not resolves it.

It does, however, prevent selling on 3rd party sites (or cashing out) but the physiological aspect of gambling is still intact.

Alpha Centauri eredeti hozzászólása:

Now the dutch is transforming steam loot boxes into mobile gacha games for maximum profit and ultimate scam of the consumer. It will make stuff even more rare to obtain and that’s where the young fall victim of the scam.

Exactly. It does more harm then good when it comes to that issue.

"I want a knife!" Either spend a bit in the market for a cheap one or keep spending $2.49 on keys and keep hopping you get lucky.

The market, at least, helped alleviate some of the issue by making them accessible and guaranteed purchase. It feel that 3rd party sites were the main issue and now it is too late to deal with them about it.

It does seem to me that the target of this legislation were third party sites, yeah. And I think we can agree none of us is going to weep for them if they get craked down on like this.