Loot Boxes deemed gambling and illegal in Belgium, Netherlands....go under intense scrutiny elsewhere!

[BlackSpawn]

Many of us have been aware for a long time of the fact that loot boxes, key crate RNG and similar microtransactions are essentially paid games of chance for items of money worth (or reasonable proxy) aka. gambling. These virtual slot machines are introduced into games as a money sink: One that makes the title esentially have no price ceiling nor cooldown between additional purchases or expenditures; One that preys especially on minors and on at risk and vulnerable individuals but ultimately on the population at large under the pretense of an "optional" addition to a title; One that is quite literally shoehorned into the otherwise functional title with a singular purpose. However, these systems are invariably designed in such a way as to goad the player into partaking in the system (either via drops, market, ingame store, key crate gambling, paid mods via community made cosmetics, etc.) and use the game itself as a neverending loop of marketing by exposing the customer to such items and monetization. The customer makes him/herself suggestible to such conditioning and manipulation by surrendering to the virtual world that is supposed to be an inocuous, fun and enjoyable experience rather than a carefully designed and thinly veiled virtual casino / online marketplace inside a game.

WELL....

FINALLY, the gaming population at large has made their voices heard about these anticonsumer, predatory practices! After the fallout from EA's poorly conceived implementation of paid to win loot boxes tied to game progression on Star Wars Battlefront 2, a number of countries and governmental bodies / gambling authorities all over the world have begun to pay notice to said practice...and some are acting!
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-battlefront-2s-loot-box-controversy-expl/1100-6455155/

Hawaii introduced several loot box related bills:
https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/13/hawaii-loot-boxes-bills/

Netherlands was the first country to classify certain loot boxes as gambling, and illegal. They gave video game publishers a timeline to REMOVE illegal loot boxes by mid June 2018:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-19-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-are-gambling

Belgium soon followed and declared that the penalty would be a fine AND potentially prison for those that violate the law:
https://screenrant.com/loot-boxes-illegal-belgium-netherlands/
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306

UK Gambling Authority and the US overall have lagged behind in their consideration of loot boxes as gambling. Only the Washington Gambling Commission gave Valve a notice about them, and Valve responded by disabling external websites that used Steam API to gamble with Steam Marketables but stopped at that.
https://www.polygon.com/2016/10/5/13176244/washington-gambling-commission-demands-end-to-valve-cs-go-skin
https://www.polygon.com/2016/10/18/13318326/valve-fires-back-at-washington-state-gambling-commission-over-cs-go-betting

A case raised in US courts where Valve was named in the suit related to "illegal gambling" in CSGO was thrown out of court / did not proceed.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2017/04/04/illegal-gambling-case-concerning-csgo-is-kicked-out-of-court/#619833221495

Additional european countries are scrutinizing loot boxes and predatory monetization of the gambling type in games (Of note, the de facto European Union capital is located in Brussels, Belgium) and Netherland's Gaming Authority stated their interest in loot box legislation / regulation throughout the European Union member states.

Summary of attempts at loot box legislation in USA, including the latest bill introduced in Minnesota on 4/24/2018.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0
Loot box bill introduced in Minnesota legislature: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=HF4460&version=0&session=ls90&session_year=2018&session_number=0


Its a good day where, finally, legislations around the world are seeing loot boxes for what they really are. What took so long!? If one thing is clear from all of this, is that developers, publishers and storefronts cannot be trusted to have a fair, conscientous and morally minded limit with regards to predatory monetization in their games...even if they are PAID and not F2P.

Videos discussing the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNiVSj9uzTw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JygNQ_n22U

Relevant Opinion Article (2/2018):
https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/20/loot-boxes-should-face-gambling-regulation/

Official Statement Belgian Gaming Commission:
https://www.koengeens.be/fr/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving
Google english translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https://www.koengeens.be/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving&prev=search

Official Statement Dutch Gaming Authority:
https://www.kansspelautoriteit.nl/publish/library/6/press_release_loot_boxes_19_april_2018_-_en.pdf

[Wolfpig]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

Illegal gambling is not a childish issue.

Right.

People who think that those stuff is illegal gambling are the issue.
Nothing will be solved by "banning" that stuff out of videogames.....it is more a placebo so that people say "see they do something" (at least right now.....probably most of the stuff is forgotten by them in around 8 weeks and nothing will be done) without solving the issues at the root.

[wuddih]

maybe i can play csgo ... one day and do not have to listen to a 14 year old flaming me that i am boosted to play in high ranks or that i cheated my way up .. because i have no skins and before the match even started.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

Within the next 6 months, hopefully the entire European Union will deem them illegal gambling.

this will not happen in 6 months, even when they rule it, it will not have immediate effect. china already ruled a year ago that lootboxes have to display the odds for each item ... still not done.

china is ignorable for the most part .. belgium is not, the eu commision is in the building on the other side of the street.

[BlackSpawn]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von CharlestONE:

I was actually more questioning the requirements by Belgium

"However, developers are increasingly using systems to get players to real money once they have purchased a game. The Gaming Commission is talking about:

Emotional response at possibility of profit: uncertainty from loot box is linked to possibility of profit gain;
A player may think that the purchase of a loot box gives them an advantage, which is not always the case
Confusion of fiction and reality: well-known real people promote the most expensive loot boxes;
Use your own currency system: for a real amount, players can buy in-game coins;
Apparently infinite methods to deposit money on player accounts;
RNG or opaque odds for the game of chance


To speak of a game of chance, the Gaming Commission uses four parameters. If there is a game element, a bet can lead to profit or loss and chance has a role in the game. In the case of FIFA 18, Overwatch and Counter Strike: Global Offensive, the Gaming Commission considers that the system of loot boxes is a game of chance that is subject to Belgian gaming law. The developer of Star Wars Battlefront II made some adjustments shortly after the launch, so that the system of loot boxes in that game no longer technically forms a game of chance."

Excerpt from Belgium's Gaming Commission Official Statement:
https://www.koengeens.be/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving

[BlackSpawn]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Wolfpig:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

Illegal gambling is not a childish issue.

Right.

People who think that those stuff is illegal gambling are the issue.
Nothing will be solved by "banning" that stuff out of videogames.....it is more a placebo so that people say "see they do something" (at least right now.....probably most of the stuff is forgotten by them in around 8 weeks and nothing will be done) without solving the issues at the root.

It doesnt have to be banned.

It needs to be lawful, for adults only, taxed appropriately and be treated for what it is.

Not being introduced surreptitiously into online games and being called something else.

It is a virtual slot machine, a paid game of chance with items of money worth...without question. Hence, gambling.
And, at the moment, quite illegal as it skirts limitations, regulations and opportunistically constitutes predatory monetization which takes advantage of minors, people at risk and the gaming populace at large.

[Wolfpig]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Radene:

Yes, it very much is important for this comparison. There's a whole microeconomy around trading and buying/selling these cards, a rather central aspect, too.

So, are they the same or not? I will say they are not.

As far as i read last (or was it earlier this?) week in the 4 games which the dutch goverment want to change you can sell/trade the stuff you get too.

Thats why they proclaim it "illegal gambling" and the games where you can not sell/trade the stuff out of the boxes are save for now.

So yes, it is still the same.

[BlackSpawn]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von wuddih:

maybe i can play csgo ... one day and do not have to listen to a 14 year old flaming me that i am boosted to play in high ranks or that i cheated my way up .. because i have no skins and before the match even started.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

Within the next 6 months, hopefully the entire European Union will deem them illegal gambling.

this will not happen in 6 months, even when they rule it, it will not have immediate effect. china already ruled a year ago that lootboxes have to display the odds for each item ... still not done.

china is ignorable for the most part .. belgium is not, the eu commision is in the building on the other side of the street.

I dont mean legislation will be in place in 6 months.

I mean that the EU as a whole will hopefully be looking into creating legislation for it (hopefully in 6 months - coming year) and giving it the appropriate scrutiny it merits.

Slowly but surely gets it done.
Theyve gone on long enough without scrutiny.
It was time.

[Wolfpig]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

It is a virtual slot machine, a paid game of chance...without question. Hence, gambling.

The difference in that is....in slot machines etc. you can lose everything you put into it.
Never saw a game where you can pay for boxes and get nothing in return (aka can lose your money).

[BlackSpawn]

You can lose your money.
In fact, every time you put money in there (Virtual Slot Machine / Loot Box Gambling) you lose it.

Even if you cash out, you lose significant percentages through each step of the way.

You buy a $2 USD key and use that to open a crate.
The item resulting from the opening may be valued as less, more or same than the key you paid for.
That is a paid game of chance, where you stand to lose, win or stay the same.
Hence, the key crate loot box gamble.

And it is all with real money too, Steam Wallet...redeemable for hardware, games, subscriptions of real world worth.

[Start_Running]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von cinedine:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Radene:

Same thing? You mean you can trade lootbox content or sell it for real money without violating any agreements?

One of the arguments for the Dutch was that you can trade the items and they therefore have monetary value. But you could do that with trading cards, stickers, ... aaaallll the way back to when baseball cards where introduced. So either they have been blind to this for a couple of decades, or there is some distinguishing factor.

Well you can't stop something from having a monetary value can you?
As in there is literally nothing you can do to prevent that. People will assign a monetary value (consciously or subconsciously) to just about everything around them. Even if it had no monetary value before. If someone came up to you and said, 'I'll give you $20 for that gum you're chewing' How do you stop that?

I suppose the clever side step would simply be to make any item gained via the boxes , purchaseble directly, which would have the effect of fixing the value. No one's going to pay anothe player $200 for something they can buy in the item store for $4. Or simply making the items non-tradeable or marketable. But then again, doesn't that technically override the right to sell one's property and one's discretion.

Of course we don't know which off those 10 games were the ones found compliant. WHich, is rather problematic and renders the whole statement click-baity. 4 out of 10. And since we don't know which ones failed, we can't discuss what factors result in the difference.

WHat surprises me is that none of this Came up when Diablo 3 did it.

[Start_Running]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Wolfpig:

Right.

People who think that those stuff is illegal gambling are the issue.
Nothing will be solved by "banning" that stuff out of videogames.....it is more a placebo so that people say "see they do something" (at least right now.....probably most of the stuff is forgotten by them in around 8 weeks and nothing will be done) without solving the issues at the root.

It doesnt have to be banned.

It needs to be lawful, for adults only, taxed appropriately and be treated for what it is.

Not being introduced surreptitiously into online games and being called something else.

It is a virtual slot machine, a paid game of chance...without question. Hence, gambling.
And, at the moment, quite illegal as it skirts limitations, regulations and opportunistically constitutes predatory monetization which takes advantage of minors, people at risk and the gaming populace at large.

So technically all they have to do is rase the age restriction on the games in those country's hmm?

I wonder how old you have to be to buy a pack of M:TG cards in Belgium

[BlackSpawn]

You can stop people from gambling illegaly via virtual slot machines and online marketplaces shoehorned into otherwise playable games that dont need those things to be functional.

[Lamont]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Wolfpig:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

Illegal gambling is not a childish issue.

Right.

People who think that those stuff is illegal gambling are the issue.
Nothing will be solved by "banning" that stuff out of videogames.....it is more a placebo so that people say "see they do something" (at least right now.....probably most of the stuff is forgotten by them in around 8 weeks and nothing will be done) without solving the issues at the root.

You might want to question the Belgian and Dutch Authorities directly on that and see if they share your opinion of that then. Somehow after all the time effort and experts/lawyers expenses, I don't think they will see eye to eye with your opinion though. I think they are in this for the long haul myself

[Start_Running]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

You can stop people from gambling illegaly via virtual slot machines and online marketplaces shoehorned into otherwise playable games that dont need those things to be functional.

So what you're saying is, that the mechanic can be safeely ignored by those who do not want to participate in it, rendering it an act of human choice.

[HLCinSC]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von wuddih:

maybe i can play csgo ... one day and do not have to listen to a 14 year old flaming me that i am boosted to play in high ranks or that i cheated my way up .. because i have no skins and before the match even started.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

Within the next 6 months, hopefully the entire European Union will deem them illegal gambling.

this will not happen in 6 months, even when they rule it, it will not have immediate effect. china already ruled a year ago that lootboxes have to display the odds for each item ... still not done.

china is ignorable for the most part .. belgium is not, the eu commision is in the building on the other side of the street.

I wouldn't dismiss China so easily. Their authoritarian form of government can act more more swiftly and severely and non-native companies have very little rights. They can basically arbitrarily decide to block anything without notice or recourse and then boom there goes a company's access to over a billion people with a growing economy.

[BlackSpawn]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Start_Running:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BlackSpawn:

You can stop people from gambling illegaly via virtual slot machines and online marketplaces shoehorned into otherwise playable games that dont need those things to be functional.

So what you're saying is, that the mechanic can be safeely ignored by those who do not want to participate in it, rendering it an act of human choice.

No.

I am saying that illegal gambling should be addressed.

If you want to gamble, go to a casino.

This window entry stealth virtual slot gambling on otherwise functional games has been quite the racket from the start.
A racket that affects minors and other populations at risk and doesnt even have the decency to be appropriately announced for those that could actually stand to legally gamble.

Glad its finally being called out for what it is.
And acknowledged both for its predatory opportunistic character and the potential pernicious and detrimental effects stemming from it.