On the issue of refunds and their limitations.

[Xbob42]

Hi there!

I dunno how often actual Steam developers read this, but I figured it was probably better to post this here than waste someone's time with a ticket asking a question.

I'm curious as to how the Steam refund policy seems rather contradictory.

I have used the policy liberally since its release, I think it's fantastic and allows me to try out games that I otherwise couldn't without the fear of wasting money, it has greatly increased the overall number of games that I buy. (And I mean permanently buy, not buy and refund.)

But there were two curious bits to refund emails I've gotten.

The first was fairly benign:

"You’ve requested a significant number of refunds recently. If you’re unsure about a product, make sure to check out the customer reviews before purchasing."

That was from back in October.

Then, the second, less benign:

"You’ve requested a significant number of refunds recently. Please keep in mind that refunds are not a method for trying out games. If we think the refund system is being misused we’ll decline to grant future refunds."

Not a method for trying out games?

But that directly contradicts the refund policy seen here:

http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/

"You can request a refund for nearly any purchase on Steam—for any reason. Maybe your PC doesn't meet the hardware requirements; maybe you bought a game by mistake; maybe you played the title for an hour and just didn't like it."

Literally the very first two sentences. I totally play these games for an hour and decide I don't like them, sometimes they run poorly or crash a lot, etc. None of these have been super short games that I've beaten within the 2 hour limit (My achievements can attest to that.) so it's not me abusing the system to beat a bunch of short games and screw devs out of their money. It's me using the system for something I figured was AOK, but then it turns out it's not?

I kind of figured, EU ruling aside, that the refund system would be this free and open precisely BECAUSE it encourages more experimentation with games in the store, leading to more overall sales. Heck, I've even refunded to my Steam wallet 100% of the time (or very, VERY close to 100%, I think I refunded to my card once) so it's not even leaving the ecosystem, and the day-long delay prevents you from just spamming the system with buy-refund-buy-refund dozens of times per day like a crazy person.

Am I missing something here? Do I seriously have to worry about using the refund system exactly how Valve describes it on their own explanation page?

[Tito Shivan]

Out of curiosity, how many games have you refunded so far an in which timeframe?

There's really no contradiction. You can use the refund option to try a game and you can also abuse the refund option in the same way.

It's like free food samples on the mall. There's a difference between trying some free samples and having a free dinner out of the samples every Friday.

[Xbob42]

Originally posted by Tito Shivan:

Out of curiosity, how many games have you refunded so far an in which timeframe?

There's really no contradiction. You can use the refund option to try a game and you can also abuse the refund option in the same way.

It's like free food samples on the mall. There's a difference between trying some free samples and having a free dinner out of the samples.

Since the start of May, I have requested 7 refunds.

In the same time frame, I have purchased and *not* refunded 14 games, so 21 total transactions. (And many are either over 2 hours played or 14+ days since purchase, so no possible refunds, and none planned.)

I certainly don't think that constitutes abuse, do you?

I absolutely think it's a contradiction. Abuse has to be defined, they even define it on the refund page, and it's not at all how I use the system.

"Abuse
Refunds are designed to remove the risk from purchasing titles on Steam—not as a way to get free games. If it appears to us that you are abusing refunds, we may stop offering them to you. We do not consider it abuse to request a refund on a title that was purchased just before a sale and then immediately rebuying that title for the sale price."

By "free games" it's clear they mean using the system to play through the entirety, or even the majority of a game, then refunding it, effectively netting you a no-charge rental. That is a severe distinction from their very clearly worded "for any reason" (excepting listed exceptions, of course) for returning games you don't like, etc.

When I said refunds have increased my overall rate of permanent purchases, I wasn't kidding. I buy a lot of games, and conversely, that means have a higher rate of refund than others. If my refunds were restricted, I'd buy far fewer games overall, y'know? Like I used to. I'd buy maybe 10 games per YEAR in the past.

The store is just much more exciting to explore and it's more satisfying to test waters I never would've even considered previously when I know that if a product isn't what I wanted, I'm at no obligation to keep it forever. I'm eagerly awaiting the Steam Explorers feature for just this reason.

[Start_Running]

Dude you've gotten two warnings. The next one will be the message that says your refund request has been denied due to the amount of refunds. Heed the warning.

[Finchen]

Hm, I don't think the refund system is a demo system. Having to refund a game should be a worst case szenario, at least that is what I have seen it as. Maybe they should the "not allowed to use to demo games" add to the description though.

[Start_Running]

Originally posted by Finchen:

Hm, I don't think the refund system is a demo system. Having to refund a game should be a worst case szenario, at least that is what I have seen it as. Maybe they should the "not allowed to use to demo games" add to the description though.

That's sort of a given.

[Xbob42]

Originally posted by Start_Running:

Dude you've gotten two warnings. The next one will be the message that says your refund request has been denied due to the amount of refunds. Heed the warning.

I'm not concerned about the warnings so much as I'm concerned about policy consistancy and clarity. The only one losing out on limiting my refunds would be Valve. I'd just be saving money by buying less games, y'know?

Originally posted by Finchen:

Having to refund a game should be a worst case szenario

Did you read what I quoted? They go out of their way to say it is NOT a worst-case scenario system, and encourage you to use it freely, literally telling you that they'll give you refunds for any reason, and if your refund falls outside of the policy to contact them so that they can see if they can help you regardless.

It is not consistant at all with the warnings received.

Originally posted by Start_Running:

That's sort of a given.

How is it a given? It's literally the opposite of what their refund policy tells you. Did you guys not even read it? We don't have to make up our own refund policy rules, they have an entire page going into great detail so you don't have to interpret it as some voodoo magic.

[Finchen]

Originally posted by Start_Running:

That's sort of a given.

Not for OP and I have read similar posts like his before, so he is not the only one, there was even a dev of a game that has no demo on PC but for console saying it isn't necessary, because people can demo it and refund it on Steam, which got some people angry.

Found it: https://steamcommunity.com/app/480490/discussions/0/1327844097113000481/?l=italian

so at least this developer had a different sight on the refund system too. (I think a demo is game first, money later not the other way around and for sure I think the refund system is not a demo system)

[Xbob42]

Exactly. When Valve says you can refund "for any reason" and the only exception is to not abuse it for "free games," they are clearly and loudly telling you that is it not only okay, but ENCOURAGED to use the system to demo games, to not be scared of making purchases, because they will refund you, for any reason, so long as it's under 14 days or 2 hours of play time.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no wiggle room at all for alternative interpretations or implied rules. They are crystal, crystal clear.

Except when they email you, then things suddenly change?

[Finchen]

Originally posted by Xbob42:

Except when they email you, then things suddenly change?

They should make clear the demo point. As it is by now, I would take the warning extremely serious and not refund anything for some time to not lose that ability for good.

[cinedine]

Originally posted by Xbob42:

Since the start of May, I have requested 7 refunds.

In the same time frame, I have purchased and *not* refunded 14 games, so 21 total transactions. (And many are either over 2 hours played or 14+ days since purchase, so no possible refunds, and none planned.)

I certainly don't think that constitutes abuse, do you?

You've refunded a tird of your purchases. That is pretty significant. If you'd were to return every third item to a physcial store, you'd find they refuse your business pretty soon, too.
That's around 14 hours of free gameplay and depending on the games' length maybe even seven free games.

The refund policy is goodwill. It doesn't matter if you don't think you abuse it. They are in their rights to deny it to you if *they* feel so.

[Spawn of Totoro]

The refund system is not intended as a demo though. It is to remove the risk from buying games that may not work and give you time to figure out how to get them to work.

It is not to replace researching the game. You should find out if you will like the game or not first.

Too many refunds in a period of time will case a flag and the warning message. After that, a Valve employee looks into it and decides if such abuse is taking place. If they do not find abuse, then nothing will happen.

"

Abuse
Refunds are designed to remove the risk from purchasing titles on Steam—not as a way to get free games. If it appears to us that you are abusing refunds, we may stop offering them to you. We do not consider it abuse to request a refund on a title that was purchased just before a sale and then immediately rebuying that title for the sale price.

That is not clear on what abuse it. It only states one example of what could be abuse. Valve has never stated what they consider abuse of the system.

[Xbob42]

Originally posted by cinedine:

You've refunded a tird of your purchases. That is pretty significant. If you'd were to return every third item to a physcial store, you'd find they refuse your business pretty soon, too.

Nonsense, I refund things to Cotsco all the time. Stores with good refund policies do not care how often you return things. The idea that they'd "stop doing business with you" is hilarious. People buy stuff, people return stuff. That's why refund policies exist. So long as you're within the bounds of the refund policy, no one gives you any hassle over it.

[Spawn of Totoro]

Originally posted by Xbob42:

Nonsense, I refund things to Cotsco all the time. Stores with good refund policies do not care how often you return things. The idea that they'd "stop doing business with you" is hilarious. People buy stuff, people return stuff. That's why refund policies exist. So long as you're within the bounds of the refund policy, no one gives you any hassle over it.

Even Costco will stop doing buisness with you if they feel you are gaming the refund policy. They have even done it before.

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3034015

They have even changed their policies due to refund abuse.

http://gizmodo.com/239924/costco-officially-changes-return-policy-for-the-worse

[cinedine]

Originally posted by Xbob42:

Originally posted by cinedine:

You've refunded a tird of your purchases. That is pretty significant. If you'd were to return every third item to a physcial store, you'd find they refuse your business pretty soon, too.

Nonsense, I refund things to Cotsco all the time. Stores with good refund policies do not care how often you return things. The idea that they'd "stop doing business with you" is hilarious. People buy stuff, people return stuff. That's why refund policies exist. So long as you're within the bounds of the refund policy, no one gives you any hassle over it.

Then maybe you should overthink your buying habits in general.
This sound like a rather regional thing, which you should be glad about. Because that's certainly not true everywhere.

[Finchen]

Originally posted by Xbob42:

Originally posted by cinedine:

You've refunded a tird of your purchases. That is pretty significant. If you'd were to return every third item to a physcial store, you'd find they refuse your business pretty soon, too.

Nonsense, I refund things to Cotsco all the time. Stores with good refund policies do not care how often you return things. The idea that they'd "stop doing business with you" is hilarious. People buy stuff, people return stuff. That's why refund policies exist. So long as you're within the bounds of the refund policy, no one gives you any hassle over it.

Cosco seems to be very nice, for example Amazon isn't anymore: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/18/banned-by-amazon-returning-faulty-goods-blocked-credit-balance

I think Valve tries to walk the slim path between allowing refunds and devs not feeling people playing their games and not paying for it. For sure they are not addressing the demo problem and should to make things more clear.