What LV5 Monkey/Tower has the best raw DPS?

[RarelyActive]

Excluding the Superpower/True Sun God tower and ultra instinct LV6 monkey's/towers, what single tower does the most DPS on it's own?

[Kunovega]

Bloon Master Alchemist

But you lose money with him, so he's really only useful in later rounds. I don't typically even consider upgrading to him unless at round 90+

But in games that go well over 100 to 200 rounds, he's often the highest pop count in the 10's of millions, sometimes doing more than true sun god depending on position and timing

The only things that consistantly outdo the Bloon Master Alchemist are Vengeful True Sun God and high level Paragons, both of which cost millions more.

No other tier 5 has as much raw potential, but they also don't reduce your income, which he does by converting bloons to reds. But just to put it in perspective I've done nearly a billion pop count in a single game with a 025 alchemist, while the other tier 5's hadn't even broken 100 million yet.

[zghaun]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Bloon Master Alchemist

But you lose money with him, so he's really only useful in later rounds. I don't typically even consider upgrading to him unless at round 90+

But in games that go well over 100 to 200 rounds, he's often the highest pop count in the 10's of millions, sometimes doing more than true sun god depending on position and timing

The only things that consistantly outdo the Bloon Master Alchemist are Vengeful True Sun God and high level Paragons, both of which cost millions more.

No other tier 5 has as much raw potential, but they also don't reduce your income, which he does by converting bloons to reds. But just to put it in perspective I've done nearly a billion pop count in a single game with a 025 alchemist, while the other tier 5's hadn't even broken 100 million yet.

Wait really? Haven't use him yet in my 100 hours of play time, I thought the highest RAW DPS was Big Plane

[Shiroe (cortana)]

well 205 ace is quite strong, so is x5x dartling, the only issue is that this upgrade for dartling is 99% garbage against non moab class bloons

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by zghaun:

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Bloon Master Alchemist

But you lose money with him, so he's really only useful in later rounds. I don't typically even consider upgrading to him unless at round 90+

But in games that go well over 100 to 200 rounds, he's often the highest pop count in the 10's of millions, sometimes doing more than true sun god depending on position and timing

The only things that consistantly outdo the Bloon Master Alchemist are Vengeful True Sun God and high level Paragons, both of which cost millions more.

No other tier 5 has as much raw potential, but they also don't reduce your income, which he does by converting bloons to reds. But just to put it in perspective I've done nearly a billion pop count in a single game with a 025 alchemist, while the other tier 5's hadn't even broken 100 million yet.

Wait really? Haven't use him yet in my 100 hours of play time, I thought the highest RAW DPS was Big Plane

I've used every tier 5 in the game in multiple scenarios and positions, nothing does more than 025 alchemist unless you very specifically aim to build paragons and/or VTSG boosted and buffed and even then it's close.

Just for fun I did (today) a logs track where I built every single tower up to every version of tier 5 and just let it run, eventually I even made the paragons (all 3) and a TSG (but not VTSG) and I intentionally left the 025 alchemist for last.

At round 169 the 205 plane had 30 million pops already while the alchemist had nothing because I had just upgraded it. 100 rounds later? The 025 alchemist is at over 1 billion pops while the 205 plane is at 150 million. So the 025 alchemist is averaging 10 million pops per round while the 205 plane is averaging just over 1 million pops per round.

I had actually recorded it, but for some reason it won't let me upload a 3 hour video to YouTube and then the game crashed at round 270, I went back in and played a little more, here's some screenshots from round 273:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/kunovega/screenshots/

And again, I built the 025 alchemist last in round 169, all the other towers had anywhere from 10 to 160 more rounds to pop bloons and the alchemist is still nearly 10 times more popping power over a 100 round period.

Yes, positioning, buffs and what not would change some of these numbers, but not by drastic amounts. The main reason the plane even gets as high as it does is that it's hitting so many bloons before other towers even have a chance to shoot, so its actual damage isn't particularly amazing, but its positional attack power leverages the fact it can hit the front of the track from anywhere and before most other towers. So if there's bloons that can die in one hit, it gets most of them first. The alchemist pop count is due to the red bloon reduction, it gets the count for everything that would have been inside what it shrunk.

[Stycore]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

.
No other tier 5 has as much raw potential, but they also don't reduce your income, which he does by converting bloons to reds. But just to put it in perspective I've done nearly a billion pop count in a single game with a 025 alchemist, while the other tier 5's hadn't even broken 100 million yet.

050 ninja comes pretty close to bma, might even beat it

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by Stycore:

Originally posted by Kunovega:

.
No other tier 5 has as much raw potential, but they also don't reduce your income, which he does by converting bloons to reds. But just to put it in perspective I've done nearly a billion pop count in a single game with a 025 alchemist, while the other tier 5's hadn't even broken 100 million yet.

050 ninja comes pretty close to bma, might even beat it

050 ninja is less than half the pop count.

Here's a 250 ninja on round 300 getting as many pops as he can:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636145646
Under 3 million per round

Here's a 025 alchemist on round 300 getting 11 million pops per round
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636145594

And for comparison here's a 205 plane that some people have suggested is the best, when in fact the high pop count during normal play is due to it stealing pops so early from other towers at the front of the track, its actual pop count per round is under 200k
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636145670

My examples from earlier in this thread were from actual game play where I can show you al alchemist after 100 rounds can break 1 billion:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2635586500
(he wasn't built until round 169, this screenshot is round 173

But my game play experience with these towers is similar to what you can see on your own in sandbox mode. Launch sandbox mode, play a round with just 1 monkey and more bloons than he can pop and see just how many he can max possibly achieve

The only things that can compete with a 025 alchemist for pop count are paragons or a properly buffed and well placed VTSG. Even a regular TSG doesn't.

[The K-man]

Originally posted by Stycore:

Originally posted by Kunovega:

.
No other tier 5 has as much raw potential, but they also don't reduce your income, which he does by converting bloons to reds. But just to put it in perspective I've done nearly a billion pop count in a single game with a 025 alchemist, while the other tier 5's hadn't even broken 100 million yet.

050 ninja comes pretty close to bma, might even beat it

Grand sabo does get good pops, but he's only getting 25% of each blimp's health. BMA gets 100% of the health of every bloon he gets with his potion plus 100% of the health of everything inside.

As far as discussions about dps are concerned I think it's best to talk about second place and down because BMA is just so ridiculously ahead of everything else.

[Stycore]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Originally posted by Stycore:

050 ninja comes pretty close to bma, might even beat it

050 ninja is less than half the pop count.

Here's a 250 ninja on round 300 getting as many pops as he can:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636145646
Under 3 million per round

Here's a 025 alchemist on round 300 getting 11 million pops per round
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636145594

And for comparison here's a 205 plane that some people have suggested is the best, when in fact the high pop count during normal play is due to it stealing pops so early from other towers at the front of the track, its actual pop count per round is under 200k
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636145670

My examples from earlier in this thread were from actual game play where I can show you al alchemist after 100 rounds can break 1 billion:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2635586500
(he wasn't built until round 169, this screenshot is round 173

But my game play experience with these towers is similar to what you can see on your own in sandbox mode. Launch sandbox mode, play a round with just 1 monkey and more bloons than he can pop and see just how many he can max possibly achieve

The only things that can compete with a 025 alchemist for pop count are paragons or a properly buffed and well placed VTSG. Even a regular TSG doesn't.

Fair enough, in my testing I got something like less than half the pops as well, still in the same order of magnitude though

[Revalopod]

both MAD and Ray of Doom have crazy high dps.
MAD is extremely powerful specifically against moabs, while RoD has huge potential damage output because it has 1k pierce

[Ackranome]

Ray of Doom is pretty insane.

[Bellatrix]

The DPS potential of Tack Zone is insane for its relatively low cost, though only with the right placement and support.
Assuming 2-0-5, it fires 271 tacks per second, each of which deal 2 damage, and can hit 4 bloons.
Without support, that's a maximum of 542 single-target DPS (what % of its tacks hit a specific target depends on how big the target is and how close Tack Zone is to it, I think it can reach 100% with BADs and bosses). Each tack can hit 4 bloons, so in a crowd it can deal a maximum of 2,084 DPS.

The more projectiles a tower fires, the better it synergises with damage and pierce buffs.
Also, the more projectiles created by a single shot, the better it synergises with alchemist, as it'll get more use out of each buff before consuming it.
Tack Zone fires by far the most projectiles per shot and overall, so the synergy with support towers is incredible.
Without relying on abilities you can get 8 damage per tack (from alchemist and brittle though you'd burn through acidic drip almost instantly so +7 is more realistic), and hit 8 bloons with each tack (from alchemist and village), so even without considering any attack speed boosts that's up to 2,168 single-target DPS and up to 17,344 DPS total.