Stop with this insanity and stop to think for once...

[Malekith]

And no, this isn't directed at the devs, this is directed at everyone going mad over the recent announcements.

First, i'll address the modding issues.

Personally I used to make mods Total War Warhammer 1 & 2 and Stellaris by PARADOX...

The modding platform has been available for a few years, in fact I even uploaded mods to it, albeit I have since stopped updating my mods earlier this year due to no longer playing the game.

There is nothing wrong with the platform nor them switching away from Steam, in fact, it's better for the long term health of the game. With Steam, you do not have the version numbers of the games for mods, so mods that are broken are left up on the workshop unless the uploader removes it themselves. This creates a situation like you have currently where hundreds of thousands of mods are broken for CS1. It's so bad that people leave negative reviews on DLC and the game because their broken mods are crashing the game and they don't even realise...

Now, they could improve the workshop user experience, at the moment it's almost on par with Steam... but still, this is early days and you should leave your feedback regarding that.

Relying on steam for everything is BAD. Paradox is a large publisher and they have their own platform, but they do not stop you buying games from other platforms... including Microsoft. The best thing about Paradox is that you can buy your games on other platforms and link that platform to Paradox and it will redeem the CD key...so you get a copy of the game on the Paradox platform for free essentially... meaning that if anything were to happen to any of the other platforms...at least you have paradox as a backup. Go and link your Steam account now to Paradox and watch as you receive every single paradox game you have bought appear on your account.

It's laughable that people are making conspiracy theories that they will be charged for mods. You do realise that modders do this work for "free". How many of you have even donated to modders? Most of us voluntarily make mods and put them out there for free, but we would appreciate donations. You are not entitled to our work.

With regards to performance...well, you want them to delay the game even more? If your PC can't meet the minimum requirements then either you are in a really unfortunate position or you have neglected to save for upgrades for the last several years since the minimum specs are from 2015.... 8 years ago.

The world cannot stop developing because others can't play a game. It's already bad enough PC games have been hindered by console since the PS3. It would be worse if we were hindered even more by PC gamers who don't upgrade their computers regardless of reasons.

Now, quit complaining and look forward to a completely revamped game with all the improvements and more that fans wanted. This isn't a reskin, it's an entirely new game!

[Dale Kent]

Just a few points:

Modding platform:
- Plenty of games build game versions into their mods. For instance my work's game has build numbers in the actual mod itself, and the game then warns players when trying to install old mods, or just outright blocks them when they're too out of date. So it IS possible to do.
- Steam is not controllable by the publisher. Paradox Mods is a fully regulated and controlled mod platform. They can remove without notice any mod they want, be it in conflict with their dlc, or just simply they don't like the modder. Paradox has shown many times in the past they are willing to ban players/modders over frivolous claims.
- Also, they updated their EULA/TOS at the start of the year to include a term that means ALL mods rights are handed over to them, and they are legally able to do anything they want with your mod you upload since they own it now. Including, monetising it for their own profit. By having it on their own platform if you do not comply, they will just remove your mod.

This situation is basically a worst case for modders.


On Performance:
- Stop excusing CO for crap optimisation. It IS possible to optimise Unity, even if the API is single core. Also, they went into this engine knowing full well the extreme limitations of using Unity. Plus, there is the history of game after game with reduced performance due to using Unity.
- There are completely comparable games out there, who have low hardware requirements to run on highest settings, with no performance issues. Oh look, here's one. It's a modern city builder, like Cities Skylines 2. It was released a month ago, so completely current. It's as deep and has most of the features of Cities Skylines 2. In fact, it has a much deeper logistics model. It has no performance issues at all.

The difference? It's on Unreal engine.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1489970/Highrise_City/

It has workshop mods too.

--------------------------------
TL:DR:
Not including workshop and forcing their own regulated platform is worst case for modders.
Stop excusing CO for not optimising their game, they went into this knowing full well the limitations of Unity, and a 100% comparable game in Unreal has no performance issues at all and runs on low end hardware.

[Creamy P1e Skwert]

Originally posted by Dale Kent:

Just a few points:

Modding platform:
- Plenty of games build game versions into their mods. For instance my work's game has build numbers in the actual mod itself, and the game then warns players when trying to install old mods, or just outright blocks them when they're too out of date. So it IS possible to do.
- Steam is not controllable by the publisher. Paradox Mods is a fully regulated and controlled mod platform. They can remove without notice any mod they want, be it in conflict with their dlc, or just simply they don't like the modder. Paradox has shown many times in the past they are willing to ban players/modders over frivolous claims.
- Also, they updated their EULA/TOS at the start of the year to include a term that means ALL mods rights are handed over to them, and they are legally able to do anything they want with your mod you upload since they own it now. Including, monetising it for their own profit. By having it on their own platform if you do not comply, they will just remove your mod.

This situation is basically a worst case for modders.


On Performance:
- Stop excusing CO for crap optimisation. It IS possible to optimise Unity, even if the API is single core. Also, they went into this engine knowing full well the extreme limitations of using Unity. Plus, there is the history of game after game with reduced performance due to using Unity.
- There are completely comparable games out there, who have low hardware requirements to run on highest settings, with no performance issues. Oh look, here's one. It's a modern city builder, like Cities Skylines 2. It was released a month ago, so completely current. It's as deep and has most of the features of Cities Skylines 2. In fact, it has a much deeper logistics model. It has no performance issues at all.

The difference? It's on Unreal engine.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1489970/Highrise_City/

It has workshop mods too.

--------------------------------
TL:DR:
Not including workshop and forcing their own regulated platform is worst case for modders.
Stop excusing CO for not optimising their game, they went into this knowing full well the limitations of Unity, and a 100% comparable game in Unreal has no performance issues at all and runs on low end hardware.

That crap game has 3.5 stars on Steam, it's an Anno styled builder.

[Stormwind]

I'll likely ignore mods that aren't on steam. There are non steam mods for a game I play called "Dyson Sphere Program", somewhere, I don't know. Never bothered looking.

[Dale Kent]

Originally posted by FondledCows:

That crap game has 3.5 stars on Steam, it's an Anno styled builder.

This game will have less now.

It's not "an Anno styled builder" btw, it's a proper city builder, like SimCity and CS1. Plainly obvious that you haven't played it.

[Wenatchee Willie]

Originally posted by Dale Kent:

Originally posted by FondledCows:

That crap game has 3.5 stars on Steam, it's an Anno styled builder.

This game will have less now.

It's not "an Anno styled builder" btw, it's a proper city builder, like SimCity and CS1. Plainly obvious that you haven't played it.

Did they ever make it so you could have curved roads?

[danko9696]

Originally posted by Malekith:

Relying on steam for everything is BAD.

Would be bad in your opinion relying on Paradox for everything?. Wouldn't be better to have both Paradox and Steam Workshop going on, and if the Paradox Workshop ends being better then let the players switch organically?.

[Dale Kent]

Originally posted by Wenatchee Willie:

Originally posted by Dale Kent:

This game will have less now.

It's not "an Anno styled builder" btw, it's a proper city builder, like SimCity and CS1. Plainly obvious that you haven't played it.

Did they ever make it so you could have curved roads?

Not real curves, but you can do any size any angle roads which easily simulate being a curve. As I understand it, they're working on curved roads for a future update.

[Malekith]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by Malekith:

Relying on steam for everything is BAD.

Would be bad in your opinion relying on Paradox for everything?. Wouldn't be better to have both Paradox and Steam Workshop going on, and if the Paradox Workshop ends being better then let the players switch organically?.

You know how annoying it can be to update mods in multiple locations? Especially if you have several mods. For example, 7 mods = 14 updates.

I'd rather stick with one workshop and the logical choice is Paradox as that is cross platform. If players chose, you'd whine and ♥♥♥♥♥ that modders weren't uploading to steam.

But if I do start modding CS2 and they do go back on their word and introduce a steam workshop, i just won't bother with steam frankly. Don't need the hassle of 2 workshops and people complaining that my mods are crashing their games on patch day.

[kilésengati]

Games like ETS2 and ATS have source-agnostic version checks implemented. And CO really wouldn't need to budge an inch to add a version category to the filter on the Workshop. Besides, completely broken and incompatible mods are marked as such on the Workshop already, even though it appears to be based on (self-)reports rather than actual curation.

And as for other platforms, nothing keeps neither creators nor devs from mirroring mods to PDX Mods or use an API.

The Workshop has these features, PDX and CO would only need to figure out how to use them.


And as for delaying the game: The industry is rife with rushed and unfinished releases. No need for another one. If they were to finance it through yet another barrage of radio station and cosmetic DLCs for CSL1, fine, there's still plenty of stuff in the world not covered by the devs!! I really long for a bloody good and original game that releases in a finished state and doesn't need a day-one patch nor day-one DLC.

[danko9696]

Originally posted by Malekith:

You know how annoying it can be to update mods in multiple locations? Especially if you have several mods. For example, 7 mods = 14 updates..

By mods you mean code mods or custom assets?, because consoles don't get code mods. Is it that much annoying to upload a custom asset, I guess exactly the same asset, in two platforms than in one?

[kilésengati]

Originally posted by Malekith:

Originally posted by danko9696:

Would be bad in your opinion relying on Paradox for everything?. Wouldn't be better to have both Paradox and Steam Workshop going on, and if the Paradox Workshop ends being better then let the players switch organically?.

You know how annoying it can be to update mods in multiple locations? Especially if you have several mods. For example, 7 mods = 14 updates.

I'd rather stick with one workshop and the logical choice is Paradox as that is cross platform. If players chose, you'd whine and ♥♥♥♥♥ that modders weren't uploading to steam.

But if I do start modding CS2 and they do go back on their word and introduce a steam workshop, i just won't bother with steam frankly. Don't need the hassle of 2 workshops and people complaining that my mods are crashing their games on patch day.

If the console versions are basically the same to the PC versions, as the devs claim, mods should carry over no issue.
The mod tools could have an option to upload and update mods to multiple platforms simultaneously. Why stop at PDX Mods and Steam Workshop? Why not also NexusMods and ModDB, or even a user-defined site?
If only there would be something like a common API for that. Mhh… pun not intended…

[danko9696]

Originally posted by kilésengati:

If the console versions are basically the same to the PC versions, as the devs claim, mods should carry over no issue.

"Will mods be supported on console?
Yes! Asset Mods will be available for Console users. Due to restrictions code mods are not possible on Console."

[Cpt Banzai]

Cancelled preorder for Cities Skylines 2. It's quite something all these developer videos released from coming months. And the developer waited just a few days before the release date to announce that the Steam Workshop is not supported.

It will not be pretty. People are going to compare this with Cities skylines 1. There will be lots of negative reviews due to bad optimization performance and no Steam Workshop Mod support. Forced Parodox account to download mods.

I can only imagine what they will do without Steam Workshop Mod. I honestly think they are going to monetize every mod at Paradox with a clause that Mods can't be removed after uploaded and are in possession of Paradox.

I hope i'm wrong but this smells like Bethesda paid mods all over again.

[Malekith]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by Malekith:

You know how annoying it can be to update mods in multiple locations? Especially if you have several mods. For example, 7 mods = 14 updates..

By mods you mean code mods or custom assets?, because consoles don't get code mods. Is it that much annoying to upload a custom asset, I guess exactly the same asset, in two platforms than in one?

I haven't dealt with CS1. I've only dealt with Total War and Stellaris. So code mods. Custom assets likely will rarely ever need updates which is fine. But more often than not, coded mods break. Warhammer was every patch. Stellaris was probably breaking once every 2 major patches. It was easy to burn out on warhammer since it took so long to fix the mods and they patched the game way too much with all the DLC they kept releasing.

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Originally posted by Malekith:

You know how annoying it can be to update mods in multiple locations? Especially if you have several mods. For example, 7 mods = 14 updates.

I'd rather stick with one workshop and the logical choice is Paradox as that is cross platform. If players chose, you'd whine and ♥♥♥♥♥ that modders weren't uploading to steam.

But if I do start modding CS2 and they do go back on their word and introduce a steam workshop, i just won't bother with steam frankly. Don't need the hassle of 2 workshops and people complaining that my mods are crashing their games on patch day.

If the console versions are basically the same to the PC versions, as the devs claim, mods should carry over no issue.
The mod tools could have an option to upload and update mods to multiple platforms simultaneously. Why stop at PDX Mods and Steam Workshop? Why not also NexusMods and ModDB, or even a user-defined site?
If only there would be something like a common API for that. Mhh… pun not intended…

What's the obsession with having so many platforms to upload mods to? Each platform has their own mod policies too. Look at Nexus where killing kids is fine but changing the race of a character is bad.

Having one place that ALL the platforms...because it's not just steam, but Epic, Microsoft, Paradox and both consoles have access to with one click is far better than having a completely fragmented database of mods across multiple platforms all because some people on steam don't have the mental capacity to use the Paradox modding platform.

Like seriously? I don't understand the insanity in these arguments. The only people it affects is those of us that make mods and upload mods. The playerbase will download the mods where ever they are uploaded to, and I have yet to see any modder complain from CS1...in fact, the devs have been working with them for several months now...

[Malekith]

Originally posted by Cpt Banzai:

Cancelled preorder for Cities Skylines 2. It's quite something all these developer videos released from coming months. And the developer waited just a few days before the release date to announce that the Steam Workshop is not supported.

It will not be pretty. People are going to compare this with Cities skylines 1. There will be lots of negative reviews due to bad optimization performance and no Steam Workshop Mod support. Forced Parodox account to download mods.

I can only imagine what they will do without Steam Workshop Mod. I honestly think they are going to monetize every mod at Paradox with a clause that Mods can't be removed after uploaded and are in possession of Paradox.

I hope i'm wrong but this smells like Bethesda paid mods all over again.

you are insane and sound so entitled over other people's labour. You're lucky people make mods for free, i'd even hazard a guess you've never donated to a mod author in your life.

You also have no idea how mods work...they need to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ updated with each patch of the game depending on how many things change. Can you imagine how much extra dev work that would take to update mods that they themselves didn't create? And you know that modders would boycott the game immediately...

Anyway, as has been clearly stated...and has been the case for years now. Paradox has hosted their own mod platform. There's no issues with it and there's no paid mods.