Thanks for the chats all, but I'm moving on. :)

[Dale Kent]

EDIT: (Nov 17) I've heard from Paradox support to the query I logged. They confirm I was banned for this post, where I said "Publishing games as bare bones as possible (even removing content to plunder later, looking at you pre-release DLC that CS2 has), is customer abuse IMO.".

The Paradox support person went on to state: "Frankly I would have issued a much sterner infraction than the minor "trollish comments" one you got for that!" (I can provide a screenshot of the email to those interested).

My comment got me a one month ban. Proves my point.
------------------------------------------------------
ORIGINAL POST STARTS HERE:
I love city building games. I mean the ones where you can build up massive modern metropolis's like in this game. I remember getting my hands on SimCity back in the old days, and instantly fell in love with it. I would lay down roads, zones, services for the city, and watch it grow at my hands. And I loved every single city builder that came along. The various SimCity versions (except 2013), Cities XL/XXL/all the versions, City Skylines, and Highrise City. SimCity 4 is definitely my most favourite of the city builders.

When I heard that Cities Skylines 2 was being made, I got pretty excited. But also, pretty worried. I was really excited, because a new game in my second favourite type of game was coming out. And the videos made it look really good! But I was worried. Worried because Paradox was publishing it.

When CS1 came out, it was an insta-buy for me. I really enjoyed the game. I was happily playing along, making cities, and then the DLC start coming out. Before CS1 came out, for years I had bought Paradox games and the DLC. However, I was really getting annoyed by the DLC policy of Paradox. CS1 came out on the heels of the 80th or something DLC for Crusader Kings 2. Not to mention the countless DLC for HOI and EU that I also played. So when the DLC starting coming out thick for CS1, I decided it was time to bow out of Paradox and put them on "the list". "The list" contains the publishers I will not buy games from. There's a few now, including EA for what they did to SimCity/Maxis. Paradox had joined them. I did not buy a single item from Paradox after June 2017. I wanted to, believe me. But this was my very minor protest against their DLC policy.

And then came Cities Skylines 2. I actually held my ground, until the day before release. I knew if I bought in, I'd be buying into the DLC flood. I was really conflicted. I knew Paradox was going to DLC the hell out of the game, and there was the performance announcement before hand but I knew from experience (with my work) that performance can (and usually does) get fixed. But I REALLY wanted to play a city builder. So I caved, and bought the standard edition. Hey, at least I would minimise my losses to $70 (AUD).

The day came, and I downloaded it, and started to play. After changing a few graphics settings, I was okay with sitting on medium graphics and tuning a few things like RPS suggested to. And I played.

But it wasn't too long before I started noticing things. But I kept playing. I noticed even more things, and read about similar things others were noticing on the Paradox forum and here. I got to 25 hours and wrote my review. I didn't want to give a cheap 2 hours review, so I gave the game an honest shot. I was actually really shocked how popular my review became. I just wrote what I honestly saw in the game.

Then the hostility began. I found myself banned for 3 days at Paradox forums for the most flimsy of reasons (the review was being discussed there and I commented on that thread). At around the same time, I started getting threats and hostile posts on my steam profile, my workshop items for other games, and ended up playing whack-a-mole deletion of posts. No point reporting as they were level 0 empty profiles just made to attack me. But I did keep playing, because maybe they had a point. Maybe I'd misunderstood some things.

Anyways, eventually I hit 85 hours. I was done. I did an update to my review, and my 3 points that I feel kill the game for me stand. They are:
1. Performance and bugs. Whilst performance had improved on the graphics side, over 250k pop my PC would start suffering from repeated stuttering. This was simulation, not graphical. The list of bugs is massive. Just look at the confirmed list on Paradox forums.
2. Lack of content. The extreme lack of content is really disappointing. Obvious hat tip to DLCing us to hell. Yeah, there's a content creator pack of some couple thousand assets coming for free, but I would put a hundy on it that the original point of that pack was to introduce paid-for curated special content on Paradox mods. But they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ their pants and giving it for free now.
3. Design choices. There are lots of design choices that just simply don't make sense.

It was at this time that I posted a new thread on Paradox forums outlining the above, and that I was putting the game down for now. Shortly after that thread was posted, I found myself banned for a full month. I have read carefully the code of conduct, the infraction matrix, and also the support page on forum user rules. I cannot see anything I could have legitimately been banned for. I can only think it was because I have been vocal in honest criticism (it's not the only time Paradox has been caught censoring their forums of negative feedback). Their code of conduct and support page also give you some instructions when banned. Contact the moderator in the instance, or if you cannot contact that moderator, email admin@paradoxinteractive. The irony is, when you are banned, you cannot access the messaging system to read the notice why you got banned. Nor can you reply to it. So I've tried emailing (politely) the email address a couple of times. I've had no reply. I don't believe I will get a response either.

So at this point, I am done. I feel that my feedback is not wanted, nor do they want to hear it. I believe that Paradox doesn't want me around, and I will just continuously be banned at Paradox forums, and if I continue to post here, banned here as well. I actually don't think this post will last long, but hey, let's give it a try. I'll screenshot it and post it to my steam profile. Avanya can't get to me there. Hahaha.

I will never, ever, buy another Paradox product. My experience with Paradox in the past, and especially recently, is that they are a hostile, abusive company that will stop at nothing to suppress honest critical feedback that they believe may impact their shareholder profits. My belief that Paradox is an extremely toxic company has been reinforced with my recent interactions with this company. I will never engage with Paradox forums again. I will never engage with any of their product, or the products of any company that has an association with Paradox. I am completely done with this company.

To everyone I've chatted with here, go in peace and have some fun. Thank you, all of you, for the fun times I had here. Even you Stealthy, even though I still think you're a Paradox employee here to muffle out any negative comments. You never did answer my question, but it's okay, you're off the hook now.

My review: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197998739866/recommended/949230
Paradox thread I got one month ban for: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/its-time-to-put-cs2-down.1608679/

[Inquisitor Aldnir]

Originally posted by Dale Kent:

I love city building games. I mean the ones where you can build up massive modern metropolis's like in this game. I remember getting my hands on SimCity back in the old days, and instantly fell in love with it. I would lay down roads, zones, services for the city, and watch it grow at my hands. And I loved every single city builder that came along. The various SimCity versions (except 2013), Cities XL/XXL/all the versions, City Skylines, and Highrise City. SimCity 4 is definitely my most favourite of the city builders.

When I heard that Cities Skylines 2 was being made, I got pretty excited. But also, pretty worried. I was really excited, because a new game in my second favourite type of game was coming out. And the videos made it look really good! But I was worried. Worried because Paradox was publishing it.

When CS1 came out, it was an insta-buy for me. I really enjoyed the game. I was happily playing along, making cities, and then the DLC start coming out. Before CS1 came out, for years I had bought Paradox games and the DLC. However, I was really getting annoyed by the DLC policy of Paradox. CS1 came out on the heels of the 80th or something DLC for Crusader Kings 2. Not to mention the countless DLC for HOI and EU that I also played. So when the DLC starting coming out thick for CS1, I decided it was time to bow out of Paradox and put them on "the list". "The list" contains the publishers I will not buy games from. There's a few now, including EA for what they did to SimCity/Maxis. Paradox had joined them. I did not buy a single item from Paradox after June 2017. I wanted to, believe me. But this was my very minor protest against their DLC policy.

And then came Cities Skylines 2. I actually held my ground, until the day before release. I knew if I bought in, I'd be buying into the DLC flood. I was really conflicted. I knew Paradox was going to DLC the hell out of the game, and there was the performance announcement before hand but I knew from experience (with my work) that performance can (and usually does) get fixed. But I REALLY wanted to play a city builder. So I caved, and bought the standard edition. Hey, at least I would minimise my losses to $70 (AUD).

The day came, and I downloaded it, and started to play. After changing a few graphics settings, I was okay with sitting on medium graphics and tuning a few things like RPS suggested to. And I played.

But it wasn't too long before I started noticing things. But I kept playing. I noticed even more things, and read about similar things others were noticing on the Paradox forum and here. I got to 25 hours and wrote my review. I didn't want to give a cheap 2 hours review, so I gave the game an honest shot. I was actually really shocked how popular my review became. I just wrote what I honestly saw in the game.

Then the hostility began. I found myself banned for 3 days at Paradox forums for the most flimsy of reasons (the review was being discussed there and I commented on that thread). At around the same time, I started getting threats and hostile posts on my steam profile, my workshop items for other games, and ended up playing whack-a-mole deletion of posts. No point reporting as they were level 0 empty profiles just made to attack me. But I did keep playing, because maybe they had a point. Maybe I'd misunderstood some things.

Anyways, eventually I hit 85 hours. I was done. I did an update to my review, and my 3 points that I feel kill the game for me stand. They are:
1. Performance and bugs. Whilst performance had improved on the graphics side, over 250k pop my PC would start suffering from repeated stuttering. This was simulation, not graphical. The list of bugs is massive. Just look at the confirmed list on Paradox forums.
2. Lack of content. The extreme lack of content is really disappointing. Obvious hat tip to DLCing us to hell. Yeah, there's a content creator pack of some couple thousand assets coming for free, but I would put a hundy on it that the original point of that pack was to introduce paid-for curated special content on Paradox mods. But they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ their pants and giving it for free now.
3. Design choices. There are lots of design choices that just simply don't make sense.

It was at this time that I posted a new thread on Paradox forums outlining the above, and that I was putting the game down for now. Shortly after that thread was posted, I found myself banned for a full month. I have read carefully the code of conduct, the infraction matrix, and also the support page on forum user rules. I cannot see anything I could have legitimately been banned for. I can only think it was because I have been vocal in honest criticism (it's not the only time Paradox has been caught censoring their forums of negative feedback). Their code of conduct and support page also give you some instructions when banned. Contact the moderator in the instance, or if you cannot contact that moderator, email admin@paradoxinteractive. The irony is, when you are banned, you cannot access the messaging system to read the notice why you got banned. Nor can you reply to it. So I've tried emailing (politely) the email address a couple of times. I've had no reply. I don't believe I will get a response either.

So at this point, I am done. I feel that my feedback is not wanted, nor do they want to hear it. I believe that Paradox doesn't want me around, and I will just continuously be banned at Paradox forums, and if I continue to post here, banned here as well. I actually don't think this post will last long, but hey, let's give it a try. I'll screenshot it and post it to my steam profile. Avanya can't get to me there. Hahaha.

I will never, ever, buy another Paradox product. My experience with Paradox in the past, and especially recently, is that they are a hostile, abusive company that will stop at nothing to suppress honest critical feedback that they believe may impact their shareholder profits. My belief that Paradox is an extremely toxic company has been reinforced with my recent interactions with this company. I will never engage with Paradox forums again. I will never engage with any of their product, or the products of any company that has an association with Paradox. I am completely done with this company.

To everyone I've chatted with here, go in peace and have some fun. Thank you, all of you, for the fun times I had here. Even you Stealthy, even though I still think you're a Paradox employee here to muffle out any negative comments. You never did answer my question, but it's okay, you're off the hook now.

My review: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197998739866/recommended/949230
Paradox thread I got one month ban for: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/its-time-to-put-cs2-down.1608679/

Nice post. Glad you left on good terms. Come back in a few months/years after CO has polished it. You know deep down it will be awesome after many dev passes.

[¤ OpN ¤]

Originally posted by de_pol:

Maybe you got banned because you called their launcher a "malware launcher" a couple of posts below your imo very honest review of the game?

Where's the problem? A software that causes hardware crashes can easily be considered malware. CS2 can brick rigs soooooooo what am I missing. Where's the lie? Calling things for what they are in 2023 gets you ban from public forums. I guess that's the standard now.

[Inquisitor Aldnir]

Originally posted by ¤ OpN ¤:

Originally posted by de_pol:

Maybe you got banned because you called their launcher a "malware launcher" a couple of posts below your imo very honest review of the game?

Where's the problem? A software that causes hardware crashes can easily be considered malware. CS2 can brick rigs soooooooo what am I missing. Where's the lie? Calling things for what they are in 2023 gets you ban from public forums. I guess that's the standard now.

LOL

[Duradan]

Originally posted by de_pol:

Maybe you got banned because you called their launcher a "malware launcher" a couple of posts below your imo very honest review of the game?

This is most likely the catalyst they took to ban the OP, yes. I did see that in the forums. But in the the actual post was honest. A lot of peeps don't like the launcher from Paradox; me included. So the OP is just spouting what most peeps hate. But its not malware. It's just badly designed and lazy

[Gone Oh!™]

I was wondering when people thought CS2 was going to be worth getting if you have CS1+DLC.
Then I found this thread.

I went from thinking it might be worth making the switch around Q4 2025 to thinking I'll just stick with CS1 and the occasional comfy SC4+NAM.

[tycoonmike]

Originally posted by Cypher:

After carefully reading the OP post and all comments, @Stealthy, you seem to not be the honest one here. Your trying to make the OP look bad and in turn made yourself look bad. Jeez the insane defenders of this game and the triggering they get from actual criticism. It just as bad as Paradox moderators banning and deleting honest criticizing post on their forums and then they update their Code of Conduct to "legit" get away with it. Horrible support service. Horrible defenders.

Don't get me wrong it works on the other side too. ie: peeps posting on the regional pack post and calling it DLC and yelling at CO to fix their game when the Pack is done by modders and not CO.

But in the end there no justification to your reply to the OP post, your a dishonest poster and it shows you will go to trash lengths to tear someone down on their post including making up stuff (actually you make a great current MSN reporter they do the same thing)

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/did-anyone-notice-the-live-stream-video-about-the-free-2-500-creator-built-assets-on-pdx-mods.1604090/#post-29216304

OP consistently posted conspiracy theories about how the move to Paradox Mods was a harbinger for paid mods and got pretty handily fact-checked by multiple people on the forums. They were misinformed about how Paradox/CO supposedly has no control over their portion of the Steam Workshop (a claim that the hullabaloo around Network Extensions 3 demonstrably shows isn’t true). I don’t agree with Stealthy’s tone either, but let’s be realistic here: OP ain’t the paragon they’re trying to make themselves out to be.

[¤ OpN ¤]

Originally posted by tycoonmike:

Originally posted by Cypher:

After carefully reading the OP post and all comments, @Stealthy, you seem to not be the honest one here. Your trying to make the OP look bad and in turn made yourself look bad. Jeez the insane defenders of this game and the triggering they get from actual criticism. It just as bad as Paradox moderators banning and deleting honest criticizing post on their forums and then they update their Code of Conduct to "legit" get away with it. Horrible support service. Horrible defenders.

Don't get me wrong it works on the other side too. ie: peeps posting on the regional pack post and calling it DLC and yelling at CO to fix their game when the Pack is done by modders and not CO.

But in the end there no justification to your reply to the OP post, your a dishonest poster and it shows you will go to trash lengths to tear someone down on their post including making up stuff (actually you make a great current MSN reporter they do the same thing)

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/did-anyone-notice-the-live-stream-video-about-the-free-2-500-creator-built-assets-on-pdx-mods.1604090/#post-29216304

OP consistently posted conspiracy theories about how the move to Paradox Mods was a harbinger for paid mods and got pretty handily fact-checked by multiple people on the forums. They were misinformed about how Paradox/CO supposedly has no control over their portion of the Steam Workshop (a claim that the hullabaloo around Network Extensions 3 demonstrably shows isn’t true). I don’t agree with Stealthy’s tone either, but let’s be realistic here: OP ain’t the paragon they’re trying to make themselves out to be.

Why is this a conspiracy if multiple companies have gone down this path. Having foresight doesn't make it a conspiracy. In fact, the only thing Paradox has stated is that they will not do micro transactions per mod. Does that mean they can't do a sub base model in order to access the mods they control? How about removing popular mods and placing them into DLC? What's stopping them from doing that? Nothing. Using real world examples of things that have happen in the past cough... (*Bethesda* https://www.resetera.com/threads/lets-reminisce-when-bethesda-tried-to-charge-us-for-skyrim-mods.732213/) cough..... Why trust a scummy company like paradox? The player base of WH3 is pretty sick of paradox business models and calling for boycotts against the company.

[JohnyT]

Originally posted by tycoonmike:

Originally posted by Cypher:

After carefully reading the OP post and all comments, @Stealthy, you seem to not be the honest one here. Your trying to make the OP look bad and in turn made yourself look bad. Jeez the insane defenders of this game and the triggering they get from actual criticism. It just as bad as Paradox moderators banning and deleting honest criticizing post on their forums and then they update their Code of Conduct to "legit" get away with it. Horrible support service. Horrible defenders.

Don't get me wrong it works on the other side too. ie: peeps posting on the regional pack post and calling it DLC and yelling at CO to fix their game when the Pack is done by modders and not CO.

But in the end there no justification to your reply to the OP post, your a dishonest poster and it shows you will go to trash lengths to tear someone down on their post including making up stuff (actually you make a great current MSN reporter they do the same thing)

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/did-anyone-notice-the-live-stream-video-about-the-free-2-500-creator-built-assets-on-pdx-mods.1604090/#post-29216304

OP consistently posted conspiracy theories about how the move to Paradox Mods was a harbinger for paid mods and got pretty handily fact-checked by multiple people on the forums. They were misinformed about how Paradox/CO supposedly has no control over their portion of the Steam Workshop (a claim that the hullabaloo around Network Extensions 3 demonstrably shows isn’t true). I don’t agree with Stealthy’s tone either, but let’s be realistic here: OP ain’t the paragon they’re trying to make themselves out to be.

I just read the post in the link you gave. It seems like he was seeking answers rather than spreading misinformation.

He does make valid points. If mods are only available through Paradox well then they would indeed have total control. It's going through their IP after all.
It's unlikely at this point but they could if they wanted to implement fees or discontinue the service. It will of course cost them money to run servers so it would need to prove worthwhile from a business perspective.

[Billy Lee]

Originally posted by ¤ OpN ¤:

Having foresight doesn't make it a conspiracy.

unfortunately, every question that are against pdx/CO is a conspiracy theory. this is how these forums work there.

Originally posted by de_pol:

Maybe you got banned because you called their launcher a "malware launcher" a couple of posts below your imo very honest review of the game?

jesus, with this "be nice" tendency, it's really us players who end badly. Soon there will only be posts thanking for the patch. if these two reasons were to be his ban, as well as many other equally guilty players, then the level of snowflakes (even though I don't like that word) is out of control.

[SeriousSimon]

Years of silent excitement for a successor. Hopes of maybe a revolution, at least an evolution. Encouraged by a trailer and countless words that turned out to mean nothing. My only hope at this point, is that this whole fiasco is going to inspire others to make the Cities: Skylines 2 we deserved. Someday.

[Duradan]

Originally posted by tycoonmike:

OP consistently posted conspiracy theories about how the move to Paradox Mods was a harbinger for paid mods and got pretty handily fact-checked by multiple people on the forums. They were misinformed about how Paradox/CO supposedly has no control over their portion of the Steam Workshop (a claim that the hullabaloo around Network Extensions 3 demonstrably shows isn’t true). I don’t agree with Stealthy’s tone either, but let’s be realistic here: OP ain’t the paragon they’re trying to make themselves out to be.

I'm not defending Dale, I'm Defending the Post. in the end that a different post on a different thread, and peeps can have all their own opinions and theories they want. We don't know what goes on behind Paradox doors, CO door, EA doors, ect ect.. and also let point out the fact a lot of companies have trashed on consumers left and right in the last 15 yrs and its just getting worse. Also not saying they was not wrong on anything they said even to other post. I even pointed out call the Launcher Malware wasn't right. Also not gonna say their theories are wrong, its just that theories in the end.

But that's here nor there. But the review is honest and even my time on the game, I agree on the criticism of it

All I'm really coming to is the fact @Stealthy coming in; and this goes for any extreme defender on either side posting is horrid and sad. and the post is tech honest. Everything that the other post said was not even remotely true. How can I and any other person believe a post like @Stealthy if they just going to make stuff up and not actually bring facts.

Even when others ask them to defend the post, they really couldn't, just made more stuff up. and I went through their post history, seems to be a trend with the poster. Dishonest and bashing other real criticisms. Its sad existences for the poster *shrug*

[Rdizz]

Originally posted by GnuHorn:

Originally posted by Stealthy:

One word missing. And that's quite important. Minimum. They said 30FPS minimum. That sets the limit for the lowest point, but says nothing about the upper limit.

It's stuff like this that is getting you called out.

Here's the original post made by CO that started the kerfuffle around the 30fps target:

The target is 30fps because of the nature of the game, (arguably) there are no real benefit in a city builder to aim for higher FPS

u/co_damsku
https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17ekhtw/comment/k63yb7n/

They're literally saying here that they are intentionally not shooting for higher FPS.

Now in other posts, they've said that you might get more with the optimization they're doing, but people complaining that they are TARGETING 30 fps are 100% telling the truth and reflecting what CO said. To attack them personally and then lie about it is pretty representative of how you behave across the board.

I can pick almost any thread in here out of a hat and at some point I'll find you attacking people and not providing any actual information with any validation. Repeatedly I've seen you claim that bugs were not bugs, and then later it turns out that either because CO acknowledges them as bugs or I validate them as bugs myself or someone else does with proof.

It's constant. You're constantly doing things like you just did and you just attack people and make things up to serve as fodder for your arguments, like you just did.

The problem with 30 fps is that it's an inappropriate frame target for PC games. The standard is 60 fps because flat panel monitors need an excess of frames to sync appropriately, and so anything under 40 fps+ may run into syncing problems, which can cause tearing, stuttering, or other problems depending on the quality of the monitor.

30 fps is a valid target for low end consoles due to hardware limitations causing frame caps and because TV hardware, due to the nature of 24-30 fps standard adapted frame rates in TV and cinema, handle the lower frame rate a little bit better (but not by much).

CO, as a computer games developer, should know this... and they should also know that the smoothness that people are looking for reflects overall performance from the engine... so while I agree with them that targeting better performance on the CPU is ideal, by saying they're targeting 30 fps, they're basically saying that they have no obligation to do graphical optimization, and that will inherently hamstring their ability to optimize the sim as well.

It's just all bad, and what people dislike even more is when people fabricate a claim that attempts to debunk something that is very easily cited, as you just attempted.

CO's targeting of 30 fps is a very valid reason for concern, and downplaying it by ignoring the actual quote in a false correction is not helping your cause.

Now bears have a place they commonly stay in the winter. You may consider finding one of those places and staying in its comfy warmness, because your presence here is not helping your cause.

I'm confused, isn't it his job to defend the game as an employee?

[de_pol]

Originally posted by Billy Lee:

jesus, with this "be nice" tendency, it's really us players who end badly. Soon there will only be posts thanking for the patch. if these two reasons were to be his ban, as well as many other equally guilty players, then the level of snowflakes (even though I don't like that word) is out of control.

idk, mang. Calling it a malware launcher insinuates that CO spreads malware and has bad intentions. I dont think they have to take that even though there is tons of valid criticism out there

[russfarr2007]

Spot on!

Yeah it was the design issues I kept reading about that convinced me to get a refund. CO seems to be more interested in damage control and sidelining constructive criticism then transparency and a out-of-beta timeline.

Back to CS1 for at least 6 months.

[BlueSixMuze]

Originally posted by russfarr2007:

Spot on!

Yeah it was the design issues I kept reading about that convinced me to get a refund. CO seems to be more interested in damage control and sidelining constructive criticism then transparency and a out-of-beta timeline.

Back to CS1 for at least 6 months.

Make it a year and you won't be disappointed. If more people started doing this I promise things would change faster than you can blink.