Code Deep Dive: Residential Rents

[Trouter]

There is a great post on Reddit that talks about how rents are calculated in the game. This was done through analyzing the source-code:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/17loew6/code_deep_dive_residential_rents/

Here are some quotes:

Factors affecting rent:

The game considers a wide variety of factors when determining the rent price for a given building. This is a simplified list of factors, but it goes even deeper than this when actually crunching the numbers.

Commute time (lower time = higher rent)

Travel time to shopping (lower time = higher rent)

This means that mixed use buildings are going to have higher rents due to this alone!

Household happiness, health, and wellbeing (higher values = higher rent)

Tax rate (lower tax = lower rent)

Side note: Children reduce the tax rate of the household! Currently, birth rates are controlled by random chance, but a fun mod might allow citizen happiness to affect the birth rate chance!

Highest household education level (higher education = higher rent)

Service coverage (police, healthcare, communication, education, garbage, entertainment, welfare) (higher coverage = higher rent)

Dwelling unit size (lot size * floors / units) (higher size = higher rent)

This means that zoning high density alone may not be enough to help. Consider zoning smaller lots to force smaller dwelling units, but be careful that units don't get too small, because this has a negative effect on happiness.

Land value (higher value = higher rent)

Urban blight (nearby crime, abandonment, pollution, homelessness) (more blight = lower rent)

Building level (higher level = higher rent)

Forget instant gratification, Cities Skylines II forces the player to consider the long term by working on larger projects to affect the big picture. Gone are the days of plopping down new buildings and watching the warning zots disappear. You now must balance the needs of your residents, your businesses, and your budget to affect change over time. I find that it simulates the real world with a staggering level of detail, because gentrifying an existing neighborhood without first setting the existing residents up for future success means pricing them out of their homes and dealing with the fallout that ensues.

I am so impressed with the economic simulation of this game, and I think we're going to see an explosion of new, complex strategies emerge as time goes on, people learn the details of the simulation, and bugs continue to be squashed. Bravo, CO. You've done incredible work with this simulation!

I didn't paste the whole thing so I recommend reading the reddit link. I think this will be helpful for players for understanding how this part of the game works, but also quells the theories that this game has no simulation underneath it.

[icedude94]

I actually really like the economy and production side of the simulation, too. This dev diary provided me with a lot of good insights into it.

https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/games/cities-skylines-ii/features/economy-production

I've also been taking it slow with city expansion, being mindful to the economic side going on in the background. I have a very nice, self sustaining city now and with a balanced budget to boot and many level 5 zones.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3069189338

[Kedryn]

That's pretty cool.

I also just tested the video going around where a city still 'functions' with zero people and road access cut off.

All those employees are homeless people (who don't count as population) who can't leave because there's no way out. Once I put road access back, they started leaving town and became 'commuters' who now drive in to work.

I'm just going to leave this running so I can see how long it takes them to clear out and if the businesses ever go bust.

[kilésengati]

Okay, that clarifies some things.

I suppose commute time is used to emulate job availability, since a landlord really doesn't give a flying toss about a tenant's commute. But it's still beyond me how education will affect rent. Also shame private property isn't a thing.

However, I think this system might be too complex and negatively affects playability, particularly in connection with the progression system, which has the potential of nagging players into a certain gameplay loop. And also the thing about lot sizes. If you want optimal results, you are supposed to create a proper cadastre, but the game (unlike for example SimCity 4) simply lacks the tools for that. Instead, you have to work around that by selectively and progressively zoning tiles.

Seems like they had a bunch of good ideas that came out half-baked, probably due to investors breathing down their neck. It's like EA in the late-2000s all over again.

[Trouter]

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Okay, that clarifies some things.

I suppose commute time is used to emulate job availability, since a landlord really doesn't give a flying toss about a tenant's commute. But it's still beyond me how education will affect rent. Also shame private property isn't a thing.

However, I think this system might be too complex and negatively affects playability, particularly in connection with the progression system, which has the potential of nagging players into a certain gameplay loop. And also the thing about lot sizes. If you want optimal results, you are supposed to create a proper cadastre, but the game (unlike for example SimCity 4) simply lacks the tools for that. Instead, you have to work around that by selectively and progressively zoning tiles.

Seems like they had a bunch of good ideas that came out half-baked, probably due to investors breathing down their neck. It's like EA in the late-2000s all over again.

Personally I hope they don't try to dumb down the simulation to please people. What the game needs is better data presentation to make it easier for players to understand what is occurring with their city.

[icedude94]

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Okay, that clarifies some things.

I suppose commute time is used to emulate job availability, since a landlord really doesn't give a flying toss about a tenant's commute. But it's still beyond me how education will affect rent. Also shame private property isn't a thing.

Education isn't free. The cims have to pay for it and each tier is more expensive than the last so university is the most expensive.

[kilésengati]

Originally posted by Trouter:

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Okay, that clarifies some things.

I suppose commute time is used to emulate job availability, since a landlord really doesn't give a flying toss about a tenant's commute. But it's still beyond me how education will affect rent. Also shame private property isn't a thing.

However, I think this system might be too complex and negatively affects playability, particularly in connection with the progression system, which has the potential of nagging players into a certain gameplay loop. And also the thing about lot sizes. If you want optimal results, you are supposed to create a proper cadastre, but the game (unlike for example SimCity 4) simply lacks the tools for that. Instead, you have to work around that by selectively and progressively zoning tiles.

Seems like they had a bunch of good ideas that came out half-baked, probably due to investors breathing down their neck. It's like EA in the late-2000s all over again.

Personally I hope they don't try to dumb down the simulation to please people. What the game needs is better data presentation to make it easier for players to understand what is occurring with their city.

Absolutely. They got rid of almost all in-gameplay queues from the previous game. Not even replacing them with more realistic and subtle alternatives. With few exceptions, it's all hidden in menus, submenus, graphs and overlays now. And it appears even some of those, like the RICO chart, are more confusing than helping.

Originally posted by icedude94:

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Okay, that clarifies some things.

I suppose commute time is used to emulate job availability, since a landlord really doesn't give a flying toss about a tenant's commute. But it's still beyond me how education will affect rent. Also shame private property isn't a thing.

Education isn't free. The cims have to pay for it and each tier is more expensive than the last so university is the most expensive.

That calculation shouldn't apply to European maps then. ;P

Jokes aside, a formal education being a factor for rent is absolutely bonkers.

Maybe it could be explained away with being a higher standard of living, but that's already determined by consumption behaviour, or is it?
And stuff like student loans, etc. could be integrated in the lifetime earnings.

Most of the stuff appears to be a decently reasonable simplification, but I don't see where the education factor comes from.

[icedude94]

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Originally posted by Trouter:

Personally I hope they don't try to dumb down the simulation to please people. What the game needs is better data presentation to make it easier for players to understand what is occurring with their city.

Absolutely. They got rid of almost all in-gameplay queues from the previous game. Not even replacing them with more realistic and subtle alternatives. With few exceptions, it's all hidden in menus, submenus, graphs and overlays now. And it appears even some of those, like the RICO chart, are more confusing than helping.

Originally posted by icedude94:

Education isn't free. The cims have to pay for it and each tier is more expensive than the last so university is the most expensive.

That calculation shouldn't apply to European maps then. ;P

Jokes aside, a formal education being a factor for rent is absolutely bonkers.

Maybe it could be explained away with being a higher standard of living, but that's already determined by consumption behaviour, or is it?
And stuff like student loans, etc. could be integrated in the lifetime earnings.

Most of the stuff appears to be a decently reasonable simplification, but I don't see where the education factor comes from.

When deciding to go to college, do you consider the cost of living on campus in a dorm versus commuting along with tuition cost?

[kilésengati]

Originally posted by icedude94:

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Absolutely. They got rid of almost all in-gameplay queues from the previous game. Not even replacing them with more realistic and subtle alternatives. With few exceptions, it's all hidden in menus, submenus, graphs and overlays now. And it appears even some of those, like the RICO chart, are more confusing than helping.




That calculation shouldn't apply to European maps then. ;P

Jokes aside, a formal education being a factor for rent is absolutely bonkers.

Maybe it could be explained away with being a higher standard of living, but that's already determined by consumption behaviour, or is it?
And stuff like student loans, etc. could be integrated in the lifetime earnings.

Most of the stuff appears to be a decently reasonable simplification, but I don't see where the education factor comes from.

When deciding to go to college, do you consider the cost of living on campus in a dorm versus commuting along with tuition cost?

Of course, except that tuition is zero and all student housing is always taken. ;P

But jokes aside, a tenant doesn't give discounts for people that lack a certain degree. If rent's too expensive in a university city, you either qualify for social welfare or it's tough ♥♥♥♥, can't study there or find alternatives. I know people that were couch crashing and some even turn to homeless shelters for sleeping during the week. Some even had magic powers and pulled 16+ hour days all week to earn themselves their rent including studying full-time.

Social housing is already a thing in CSL2. However, I don't understand why it's its own high-rise zone type instead of a district policy. Instead they choose to emulate welfare by taxing and subsidising according to academic degree.

Not to be a snowflake, but it's honestly lowkey offensive to equate poor people with uneducated people, which CO does by making income/taxes about education level instead of them being two separate categories that affect each other in a feedback loop also affected by service availability and quality and with an element of chance.

The system CO came up with is so wrong on so many levels.

[Trouter]

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Originally posted by icedude94:

When deciding to go to college, do you consider the cost of living on campus in a dorm versus commuting along with tuition cost?

Of course, except that tuition is zero and all student housing is always taken. ;P

But jokes aside, a tenant doesn't give discounts for people that lack a certain degree. If rent's too expensive in a university city, you either qualify for social welfare or it's tough ♥♥♥♥, can't study there or find alternatives. I know people that were couch crashing and some even turn to homeless shelters for sleeping during the week. Some even had magic powers and pulled 16+ hour days all week to earn themselves their rent including studying full-time.

Social housing is already a thing in CSL2. However, I don't understand why it's its own high-rise zone type instead of a district policy. Instead they choose to emulate welfare by taxing and subsidising according to academic degree.

Not to be a snowflake, but it's honestly lowkey offensive to equate poor people with uneducated people, which CO does by making income/taxes about education level instead of them being two separate categories that affect each other in a feedback loop also affected by service availability and quality and with an element of chance.

The system CO came up with is so wrong on so many levels.

It is a fair criticism on why the tax is based on education levels, but I don't anyone should be offended by it. It was most likely an attempt to simplify the game for players, to help them understand the correlation between wealth and education.

[icedude94]

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Originally posted by icedude94:

When deciding to go to college, do you consider the cost of living on campus in a dorm versus commuting along with tuition cost?

Of course, except that tuition is zero and all student housing is always taken. ;P

But jokes aside, a tenant doesn't give discounts for people that lack a certain degree. If rent's too expensive in a university city, you either qualify for social welfare or it's tough ♥♥♥♥, can't study there or find alternatives. I know people that were couch crashing and some even turn to homeless shelters for sleeping during the week. Some even had magic powers and pulled 16+ hour days all week to earn themselves their rent alongside studying full-time.

Social housing is already a thing in CSL2. However, I don't understand why it's its own high-rise zone type instead of a district policy, instead they choose to emulate welfare by taxing and subsidising according to academic degree.

Not to be a snowflake, but it's honestly lowkey offensive to equate poor people with uneducated people, which CO does by making income/taxes about education level instead of them being two separate categories that affect each other in a feedback loop also affected by service availability and quality and with an element of chance.

The system CO came up with is so wrong on so many levels.

The jobs are restricted by education level so that's why the taxes are done that way.

You don't even need high-rise residential or a district policy. You can get the low rent housing just by zoning smaller footprint buildings. That's what is really determining the rent, the size of the zone footprint. They aren't getting a discount with the low rent high density residential. The rooms in there are tiny and give pretty big maluses to happiness for any household bigger than one person.

It's totally untrue that they associate poor people with uneducated people. An uneducated cim adult in this game with enough household wealth can go straight to college or university.

Poorly educated cims can also become wealthy if you give them small footprint housing like I said and provide other benefits like free utilities and free public transportation.

Cims also use their wealth to purchase timber and concrete to maintain and upgrade their homes. Building level ties to rent as well. Higher level buildings are more valuable and have higher rents.

[kilésengati]

Originally posted by Trouter:

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Of course, except that tuition is zero and all student housing is always taken. ;P

But jokes aside, a tenant doesn't give discounts for people that lack a certain degree. If rent's too expensive in a university city, you either qualify for social welfare or it's tough ♥♥♥♥, can't study there or find alternatives. I know people that were couch crashing and some even turn to homeless shelters for sleeping during the week. Some even had magic powers and pulled 16+ hour days all week to earn themselves their rent including studying full-time.

Social housing is already a thing in CSL2. However, I don't understand why it's its own high-rise zone type instead of a district policy. Instead they choose to emulate welfare by taxing and subsidising according to academic degree.

Not to be a snowflake, but it's honestly lowkey offensive to equate poor people with uneducated people, which CO does by making income/taxes about education level instead of them being two separate categories that affect each other in a feedback loop also affected by service availability and quality and with an element of chance.

The system CO came up with is so wrong on so many levels.

It is a fair criticism on why the tax is based on education levels, but I don't anyone should be offended by it. It was most likely an attempt to simplify the game for players, to help them understand the correlation between wealth and education.

I get why they did that, but that's an oversimplification they shouldn't have done given the super-duper realistic simulation they claim to have created. Especially since these feedback loops that got rationalised away, heavily impact city-planning that, when left unanswered, lead to ghettoisation which comes with a whole bunch of other issues.

And besides, most people with vocational degrees I know run successful businesses or are well on their way there. Meanwhile, a fair bunch of people with academic degrees even have trouble finding decent work to make ends meet.

Being educated sure ain't hurting, but education = wealth is an outdated concept.

[Sacb0y]

There's so much depth people think it's a glitch lmao.

I think the added depth means the game needs more information. I think more than anything it needs information by district. That would be a great start.

[Sacb0y]

Originally posted by kilésengati:

Originally posted by Trouter:

It is a fair criticism on why the tax is based on education levels, but I don't anyone should be offended by it. It was most likely an attempt to simplify the game for players, to help them understand the correlation between wealth and education.

I get why they did that, but that's an oversimplification they shouldn't have done given the super-duper realistic simulation they claim to have created. Especially since these feedback loops that got rationalised away, heavily impact city-planning that, when left unanswered, lead to ghettoisation which comes with a whole bunch of other issues.

And besides, most people with vocational degrees I know run successful businesses or are well on their way there. Meanwhile, a fair bunch of people with academic degrees even have trouble finding decent work to make ends meet.

Being educated sure ain't hurting, but education = wealth is an outdated concept.

True but this also isn't a game that lets to subsidize education with student debt :P

When education doesn't affect income thats largely systemic, maybe it could be simulated with time.

[kilésengati]

Originally posted by Sacb0y:

There's so much depth people think it's a glitch lmao.

I think the added depth means the game needs more information. I think more than anything it needs information by district. That would be a great start.

Originally posted by Sacb0y:

Originally posted by kilésengati:

I get why they did that, but that's an oversimplification they shouldn't have done given the super-duper realistic simulation they claim to have created. Especially since these feedback loops that got rationalised away, heavily impact city-planning that, when left unanswered, lead to ghettoisation which comes with a whole bunch of other issues.

And besides, most people with vocational degrees I know run successful businesses or are well on their way there. Meanwhile, a fair bunch of people with academic degrees even have trouble finding decent work to make ends meet.

Being educated sure ain't hurting, but education = wealth is an outdated concept.

True but this also isn't a game that lets to subsidize education with student debt :P

When education doesn't affect income thats largely systemic, maybe it could be simulated with time.

Agree. They seem to have made quite an effort to have as much data as possible drive the simulation, but more isn't always better and the implementation seems to be pretty rough at times with too little information and feedback given in game.
It's quite complex but to me they seem to have cut corners at the wrong places. Only time will tell whether that's for the game's benefit.

But I still don't understand what student debt has to do with it. I know it's a big topic in the U.S., but as far as I understand, the game's simulation doesn't necessitate emulation of student debt. In the game, reflective of many parts of Europe, studying itself is paid-for by the government and all living expenses when studying are paid-for by household capital and the various ways cims of lower education (as much as I hate that oversimplification still) get subsidised either by player choice or game mechanic mandate.
Student debt exists in Europe, but it oftentimes works more like a welfare programme rather than actual loans, which keeps an individual's budget sound. And even then, student loan instalments are not dependent on your residence's costs and (ideally) don't last for an entire life.
If this education factor in rent is explained by emulating student loan debt, then there are definitely more elegant ways to solve this. For example, one could put a timed income modifier on an individual that went studying without sufficient funds… or just rationalise it entirely.

As of now, the game is a collection of good ideas, but they appear to be not fully thought-through and illogical at times.

[icedude94]

It's a game, it won't do everything realistically and it'll take shortcuts for certain things in the interest of gameplay because it's a game. Now this discussion is about trying to change mechanics at a deep, background simulation level for reasoning that feels more like trying to impose one's world view on the game and by extension all of its players while making a change in the gameplay so small nobody will really care about anyways.