Regarding the new Unity fee changes...

[Tabajara]

What's going to happen to Cities Skylines franchise as a whole? Will the team continue to work on Cities 2 using Unity or will they port to a brand-new engine causing delays? Will this cause pricing increase? Perhaps you guys are still discussing things over so whatever yall come up with. What Unity is doing is f- lame to every indie and big developer regardless.

To those unware: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/12/23870547/unit-price-change-game-development

[lozacenz]

Messaggio originale di KitsuneRisu:

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

I said "may". Unity hasn't fully clarified the whole meaning of "install"

https://www.axios.com/2023/09/13/unity-runtime-fee-policy-marc-whitten

They've clarified. It applies to only the initial install.

I have forgotten enough details that I can't explain this coherently, but supposedly there is no way for unity to actually track the information they need in order to do this while complying with EU law.

[KitsuneRisu]

Messaggio originale di lozacenz:

Messaggio originale di KitsuneRisu:

https://www.axios.com/2023/09/13/unity-runtime-fee-policy-marc-whitten

They've clarified. It applies to only the initial install.

I have forgotten enough details that I can't explain this coherently, but supposedly there is no way for unity to actually track the information they need in order to do this while complying with EU law.

Good, then problem solved.

Although, and not to be coming at you, this is very 'trust me bro' stuff that this whole thread is criticising. You might need to show some proof of this or else it amounts to nothing.

[lozacenz]

Messaggio originale di KitsuneRisu:

Messaggio originale di lozacenz:

I have forgotten enough details that I can't explain this coherently, but supposedly there is no way for unity to actually track the information they need in order to do this while complying with EU law.

Good, then problem solved.

Although, and not to be coming at you, this is very 'trust me bro' stuff that this whole thread is criticising. You might need to show some proof of this or else it amounts to nothing.

It amounts to 'might want to check that if you think it seems relevant' at most, unfortunately. I said 'supposedly' because it's very much third hand information at best.

[danko9696]

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

And retroactively, CS1 has already exceeded the thresholds. It's not a blank slate from 1 Jan 2024. It counts the already existing installs and revenue (which we all know is definitely over the 1 million thresholds set by Unity Enterprise license).

Thus, it is possible that Paradox "may" become liable for a massive bill for their 12 million+ installs.

It is only retroactive regarding the thresholds, but billable installs count starting 2024. In fact having more than 2M installs puts them into the lowest fee within enterprise bracket.

[Dale Kent]

Messaggio originale di danko9696:

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

And retroactively, CS1 has already exceeded the thresholds. It's not a blank slate from 1 Jan 2024. It counts the already existing installs and revenue (which we all know is definitely over the 1 million thresholds set by Unity Enterprise license).

Thus, it is possible that Paradox "may" become liable for a massive bill for their 12 million+ installs.

It is only retroactive regarding the thresholds, but billable installs count starting 2024. In fact having more than 2M installs puts them into the lowest fee within enterprise bracket.

That's exactly what I said. They count the existing installs and revenue. But there are circumstances where a massive bill could occur. New DLC for CS1, or a big final patch. Poor reception for CS2. Could result in a lot of people re-installing CS1. That would count as a "new install", since Unity doesn't know who has already installed it previously or not.

Here's another situation. Did you know it takes less than 6 minutes for a server to spin up a VM, install steam and a game, then release the VM again? That means a script could do this 144 times per day. A proper server farm might be able to do 100 VM's at a time. Imagine 14,400 installs being ticked up per day.

Anyways, in game dev channels that I'm in, this is being referred to as "Install Bombing", and has the potential to bankrupt any studio. No matter how big. Because an install has been clarified by Unity as "the first install on a new device". A VM is a new device.

[Ghostrider]

Just know that this change will also affect demo's, early access and what not. Also older or no longer supported unity based games may also be affected by this.

[Dale Kent]

Messaggio originale di Ghostrider:

Just know that this change will also affect demo's, early access and what not. Also older or no longer supported unity based games may also be affected by this.

They clarified specifically that demos do not count. Nor do charity freebies (like Humble Bundle). They also said re-installing on the same hardware doesn't count either. EA does count though.

They also figure they can work out piracy installs, but they won't say how. Again, "trust us bro".

[RRhoads]

Since the release of CS1, I have installed it tops 10 times. That's $2. Bought on day one. I think cheaper titles from small sudios will be hit harder by this.

[Ghostrider]

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

Messaggio originale di Ghostrider:

Just know that this change will also affect demo's, early access and what not. Also older or no longer supported unity based games may also be affected by this.

They clarified specifically that demos do not count. Nor do charity freebies (like Humble Bundle). They also said re-installing on the same hardware doesn't count either. EA does count though.

They also figure they can work out piracy installs, but they won't say how. Again, "trust us bro".

Hopefully true, but will wait and see what happens, but I think the damage is already done. As Devolver Digital have said something about this, to the point of when someone pitches a game idea at them, they have said they will ask what game engine does it use.

Messaggio originale di RRhoads:

Since the release of CS1, I have installed it tops 10 times. That's $2. Bought on day one. I think cheaper titles from small sudios will be hit harder by this.

And that is the problem a lot of smaller indie developers without deep pockets could suffer.

[danko9696]

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

That's exactly what I said. They count the existing installs and revenue. But there are circumstances where a massive bill could occur. New DLC for CS1, or a big final patch. Poor reception for CS2. Could result in a lot of people re-installing CS1. That would count as a "new install", since Unity doesn't know who has already installed it previously or not.

If that happened then how much money has made CO with CS1 in the last twelve months. More than $1M? I don't think so due to sales and getting it for free in the Epic Store. And even if they did they will likely be in the cheapest possible bracket of $0.01 per install.

About Unity knowing or not knowing who has had it installed before, it is dubious at best but Unity is claiming they're able to differentiate. Although they recognize that those are not 1:1 accurate but estimations.

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

Here's another situation. Did you know it takes less than 6 minutes for a server to spin up a VM, install steam and a game, then release the VM again? That means a script could do this 144 times per day. A proper server farm might be able to do 100 VM's at a time. Imagine 14,400 installs being ticked up per day.

Would the electricity cost and the opportunity cost worth it to use those servers to make the company lose one cent per install?. Then that's assuming no one does something about the non-suspicious-at-all very sudden very big spike of new installations.

[Dale Kent]

Messaggio originale di danko9696:

Would the electricity cost and the opportunity cost worth it to use those servers to make the company lose one cent per install?. Then that's assuming no one does something about the non-suspicious-at-all very sudden very big spike of new installations.

You can sign up to Azure right now and get a massive amount of access free. How many accounts can you make to stack the freebies?

Most large studios already have access to large numbers of servers for online services, rendering pipelines, etc.

Here's another hypothetical. Unity has stated Microsoft will have to pay for Gamepass installs. How many installs could Amazon hit Microsoft with using it's AWS network?

Anyways, can't believe you're defending Unity. The fact it's POSSIBLE to bankrupt a studio is the problem. Regardless of the opportunity and cost.

[Truffletoot]

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

Messaggio originale di danko9696:

Would the electricity cost and the opportunity cost worth it to use those servers to make the company lose one cent per install?. Then that's assuming no one does something about the non-suspicious-at-all very sudden very big spike of new installations.

You can sign up to Azure right now and get a massive amount of access free. How many accounts can you make to stack the freebies?

Most large studios already have access to large numbers of servers for online services, rendering pipelines, etc.

Here's another hypothetical. Unity has stated Microsoft will have to pay for Gamepass installs. How many installs could Amazon hit Microsoft with using it's AWS network?

Anyways, can't believe you're defending Unity. The fact it's POSSIBLE to bankrupt a studio is the problem. Regardless of the opportunity and cost.

What is "Azure"?

[Dale Kent]

Messaggio originale di Pizzeria21:

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

You can sign up to Azure right now and get a massive amount of access free. How many accounts can you make to stack the freebies?

Most large studios already have access to large numbers of servers for online services, rendering pipelines, etc.

Here's another hypothetical. Unity has stated Microsoft will have to pay for Gamepass installs. How many installs could Amazon hit Microsoft with using it's AWS network?

Anyways, can't believe you're defending Unity. The fact it's POSSIBLE to bankrupt a studio is the problem. Regardless of the opportunity and cost.

What is "Azure"?

Cloud services from Microsoft.

[danko9696]

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

You can sign up to Azure right now and get a massive amount of access free. How many accounts can you make to stack the freebies?

If you assume that you can get free server time without limits and that no one would do anything about the install-bombing (which is fraudulent by nature) then sure. But I very doubt that's realistic.

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

Here's another hypothetical. Unity has stated Microsoft will have to pay for Gamepass installs. How many installs could Amazon hit Microsoft with using it's AWS network?

If that's how will work in the end then Microsoft probably will just remove all Unity games or some sort of arrangement/rectification will happen before it goes that far, same as initially re-installs counted but not anymore.

Messaggio originale di Dale Kent:

Anyways, can't believe you're defending Unity. The fact it's POSSIBLE to bankrupt a studio is the problem. Regardless of the opportunity and cost.

I don't think bankrupting a company like CO can actually happen. From what I've gathered based on legal youtube channels Unity is essentially legally covered but there are some ambiguities there. And a prime example is how they count the installs. A company like CO no doubt would fight in court a massive bill from Unity.

Also how's saying that I don't think there is a chance CO will be affected is defending Unity?. I don't think it is realistic that Unity could bankrupt a successful small/medium sized studio (and/or publisher) that can use the enterprise licenses and has resources for defending themselves from abuse.

[Dale Kent]

Messaggio originale di danko9696:

I don't think bankrupting a company like CO can actually happen. From what I've gathered based on legal youtube channels Unity is essentially legally covered but there are some ambiguities there. And a prime example is how they count the installs. A company like CO no doubt would fight in court a massive bill from Unity.

Also how's saying that I don't think there is a chance CO will be affected is defending Unity?. I don't think it is realistic that Unity could bankrupt a successful small/medium sized studio (and/or publisher) that can use the enterprise licenses and has resources for defending themselves from abuse.

Let's look at other examples then. RobTop Games makes 8 free-2-play and pay for mobile games. Here's a good summary of their iOS exposure (it'd be pretty similar on Android I would assume).

https://app.sensortower.com/ios/publisher/publisher/414027834

3 million installs last month, for $200k in revenue (estimated). Based on those figures, and assuming they are on Unity Pro (smaller studio, don't see them being on Unity Enterprise), let's just base this on the 2 cent per install amount.

Assume they maintain these figures month to month. In one month, Unity runtime fee would be $60,000. That is 30% of their revenue.

Note revenue is gross. So out of that you need to pay for things like distribution (most platforms take between 15-30% of your revenue), taxes (lets just assume 30% company tax here, depends on country), rent, equipment, salaries, etc (conservatively let's say 20% of revenue). After your operating expenses, RobTop Games is probably sitting on a bank balance of 30% of their revenue.

Then they pay Unity.

See why developers are so angry? And why it is completely possible to bankrupt successful studios?