FAF vs LOUD?

[MagnusCerebrum]

I'm mainly after AI improvements, I don't really play RTS games online apart from matches with friends so I just want to get better AI.

[Jack_Jack]

I really heard a lot about this Loud and decided to try it out.
Come on, my opinion of what I thought of Loud IA:
_ You can only play giant maps, so I'm not used to extremely long matches, I didn't like that;
_ It was me and 1 colleague of mine, he did Soul Ripper and I did 1 Ahwassa, the AI ​​used fighters to destroy my experimental, but ignored the experiment Cybran of my colleague who ended up destroying the 2 enemy ACUs and we won, you may see some bug fixes ;
_ AI base has no defenses, very little or no defense, only T1, T2 and T3 units. She makes no defense, uses a lot of transports to play hordes of T1, T2 and T3 units at various points near your base;
_ They changed the balance of the game a lot, for example the T4 units can only build if they evolve once more in 1 button from the T3 Commander to T4, this does not have a normal game;
_ But not everything is bad, the AI ​​spreads well, makes many units, attacks you with hordes of units that give you a lot of work;
_ With regard to the FAF you have very good AI Sorian and AI Uveso that can be downloaded in the Mods section. These AIs can play with part IAx that x can use multiplier of the building speed increasing 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, up to 2.0. I play at 1.4 and it really takes a lot of work to fight these AIs and bases are extremely defended and together with my colleague, he often gets beaten up, he can play 10km maps.
_ Even FAF has the option of cooperative and custom missions are very fun and challenging.

Enter FAF and Loud, FAF really does much better, but I recommend you play to test Loud is good too ...

[loudman2]

Performance issues notwithstanding, this choice is primarily one of taste.

I will correct the previous comment, LOUD plays maps 10k and up - it does not force you only to play 'giant' maps, but it was designed to do that - something that simply isn't practical with vanilla or FAF, due to both the performance and AI limitations. This does, as was stated, tend to lead to longer more involved games.

Dynamic AI, that evolves as the game develops, is a key aim of ALL the Forged Alliance AI developers. I work in close proximity to all of them, and we discuss this principle quite often. So with regards to base defence, LOUD will invest in it - if the intelligence situation warrants it. Yes - he can be fooled - but not reliably so.

LOUD does indeed alter the balance of the game, as does FAF. LOUD has a comprehensive balance policy that is applies across the board, not just to itself, but to all the mods that it comes packaged with, to insure a consistent experience no matter how you configure your game. Certain elements, like nukes, have been pushed out to the experimental stage (T4) to allow the early game (T1 and T2) some breathing room and give it value.

By default, an adaptation of the Sorian AI is included with FAF, but it is very different from the stand alone version, and it struggles with some of the changes that FAF introduces to the game.

More current AI work is available thru multiple AI in FAF - each has a different character. The primary limitations are still the basic performance of FAF, which effectively keeps games smaller and shorter. Uveso, Swarm, RNG, Dilli, Nutcracker and SorianEdit are all works in progress for FAF, essentially building off of the Sorian framework.

LOUD and FAF are not directly compatible, due primarily to work done in LOUD to enhance performance, unit balance and threat evaluation, which are core to the effectiveness of the AI as an opponent, and allowing larger, longer games without slowdown.

The FAF community is primarily focused upon PvP, with an integrated player ranking, ladder based, matchmaking system, packaged in a custom front-end. This is the defacto 'home' of Forged Alliance since the demise of Gas Powered Games.

LOUD is alternatively focused upon co-op play versus AI, using the more traditional lobby found in the original game, with integrated mods, making it extremely simply and reliable to install and keep up to date.

As the developer of the LOUD Project, I am understandably guilty of some bias, but I've tried to be clear about the aims and objectives of both efforts, so that you can make a better informed decision.

Good luck - and enjoy.

[MagnusCerebrum]

Yeah I think I'm sticking with LOUD.
I just had my longest vs AI match ever (2.4hr, Cybran (me) vs Aeon) and I was fighting for my life for once and I actually lost (receiving a fat nuke in your energy department will do that to ya - though had I played correctly the AI wouldnt have had to use a nuke in the first place). The farthest I've gotten was managing to kill the enemy ACU early on, but from that point on it just kept getting stronger. Granted I set the AI cheating to use both time and force size as variables so I think I set myself up for an uphill battle.

It did lead to some funny moments though
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2421578886

[loudman2]

That's great to hear - we really enjoy this kind of feedback - any feedback really, good or bad, it's all constructive to us. If you have ANY questions - please - just connect to our Discord server (the link is on the front of the launcher) and ask away.

[: D]

yea

[nOObonian]

How does LOUD's AI handle fog of war and scouting? In some AIs (other games), the AI just knows your units are there.

On others if you keep "scouts" away and the AI doesn't "see" the units, you can surprise the AI.

[loudman2]

This is a very important question - one that isn't asked enough.

Unlike versions of Sorian, LOUD needs to collect proper intelligence data in order to function properly. If you blind him - by preventing him from doing so, he'll make mistakes, which is precisely what it should be like.

While the AI does get bonuses as you move the cheat up, the generally lower cheat level required to make LOUD competitive means that's he's not orders of magnitude better than you - and - more importantly - no - he doesn't see the whole map or magically know where everything is.

[superstoned]

Can confirm that Loud AI is strong... You can of course beat a bunch of LOUD ai's alone, but only if you have a strong resource advantage and play very very well. The best part about Loud is that there is just no single strategy that will always let you win, esp if you play against multiple AI's. Nukes? You can kill one or two of them, but the rest will have built anti-nukes by the time you get to them. Missile boat spam? They stack shields and start to attack...

[MagnusCerebrum]

Originally posted by loudman2:

This is a very important question - one that isn't asked enough.

Unlike versions of Sorian, LOUD needs to collect proper intelligence data in order to function properly. If you blind him - by preventing him from doing so, he'll make mistakes, which is precisely what it should be like.

While the AI does get bonuses as you move the cheat up, the generally lower cheat level required to make LOUD competitive means that's he's not orders of magnitude better than you - and - more importantly - no - he doesn't see the whole map or magically know where everything is.

This is definitely noticeable, the LOUD AI will send Recon vehicles all game and will harass you if you don't have adequate defenses. On Seton's Clutch for example the AI kept trying to harm my mass extractors with transporters because I had a poor economy and my resources were stretched too thin to properly defend them (same thing on that desert 1v1 land map that I first played) On the 81x81km world map the AI was literally building a base behind my back (I was playing on the American spot after failing to win on the Manchuko spot) which I didn't notice because I haven't built any radars within 30 minutes into the match.
One issue I have noticed though is that the AIs didn't really try to attack eachother, they were just turtling within their spawn locations with dozens of T3 units (which caused lag, of course) which was especially apparent in the Asian part of the map as opposed to Latin America and Greenland which I made sure to attack early on to secure their mass which of course meant they retaliated. None of the AIs had any Navy. But perhaps it's just because it's a modded map. The Islet map had similar issues, the AI was too incompetent to beat me at Island hopping and securing resources. On Seton's clutch however the AI (overtuned due to feedback cheating - I only use the Fixed setting now) I was assaulted with multiple fleets.
It's a shame because some of these modded maps look really good.

[loudman2]

Great comments - thanks for that.

The World map, like most of the 81k maps, requires some marking work to make it work better than it currently does. Marking maps of that size is a huge effort, and the testing that's required makes it longer still. As you might imagine, well marked maps are a necessity for any AI - LOUD or otherwise - and while you can use almost any map, getting a quality game from the AI is highly dependent upon good marking. The maps which are installed as a part of the project (versus those available thru the offline map library) are well marked and highly recommended.

[DaBa]

Originally posted by loudman2:

Great comments - thanks for that.

The World map, like most of the 81k maps, requires some marking work to make it work better than it currently does. Marking maps of that size is a huge effort, and the testing that's required makes it longer still. As you might imagine, well marked maps are a necessity for any AI - LOUD or otherwise - and while you can use almost any map, getting a quality game from the AI is highly dependent upon good marking. The maps which are installed as a part of the project (versus those available thru the offline map library) are well marked and highly recommended.

After reading this thread I have decided to return to FA and play some more. But instead of FAF I'l be giving LOUD a go to see what's it all about. Do yo have any recommendations for well marked maps that I could try out vs AI? I usually play on 20x20 maps vs 1 or multiple AIs in a deathmatch scenario. I was hoping to do some MP later after I de-rust, I hope that's possible to do with the mod as well.

Cheers and thank you so much for continuing to support this amazing RTS.

[Kamui]

FAF if you want the most popular alternative and active pvp (warning though, a cheating mod named target priorities is allowed) otherwise it has a nice map vault and easy accessibility.

LOUD if you like big bot games, also helps with performance i didn't personally like it because they changed too much from the core game, The bots seemed smarter but i didn't play much to norice more. I was just interested in smooth performance and better bots.

[Sephiroth]

You get malaware from both.
Moderators really should ban you people for trying to bait people into getting viruses on their pc from downloading this garbage.

[loudman2]

You claim is entirely unsubstantiated. Neither LOUD or FAF are involved with any kind of malware.

[Dustreaper]

always great comments then a sudden troll. It's like DnD all over again.