Do you think the accuracy for KWK 36 L/56 (Tiger E) too low ?

[shblovetruth]

I heard Tiger's 88mm main gun has very high accuracy in history, but this one in this game only get 40% accuracy on max distance (2000 m) ??? ( you can see bunch of tanks in this game has 40% accuracy, like Panzer IV, Stug 3, etc, the Tiger E only has the same 40% accuracy as low as those tanks ?)

[SalzStange]

Originally posted by shblovetruth:

I heard Tiger's 88mm main gun has very high accuracy in history, but this one in this game only get 40% accuracy on max distance (2000 m) ??? ( you can see bunch of tanks in this game has 40% accuracy, like Panzer IV, Stug 3, etc, the Tiger E only has the same 40% accuracy as low as those tanks ?)

i searched in german language and english and I were not able to find any valid stats.
I found out that the germans mostly also used veterans or highly traiend peopel for their tigers.
But nothign exactly about the accuracy

In general the game is also about balance. If the accuracy of a tiger would be 45-50 then the price should be icnreased too.

I will susbcribe this thread since it's interesting to find out if someone find good stats about.

[♔ Affable 7th Wave Teaboo ♔]

I found some German gun test results circa 40-41. Obviously, it did not feature Tiger E's KwK 36 L56, but it did have the stats for the FlaK 18/36/37.

First thing to say is that Germans did not seem to bother testing most guns at past 1000-1500m, with the ONLY exception being the FlaK 88's.

At first glance, FlaK 88's seem quite accurate at 58% @ 2000m.
Until you look at the small print and realize that was in the controlled gun range environment...
In field conditions, the gun gave much less impressive 23% accuracy.

(source: T.L. Jentz Tank Combat in North Africa: Opening Rounds; pp. 48-49, 58)


Edit: Found a more development testing stats of the actual KwK36 L56. No accuracy recorded, but just based on comparative velocity/weight difference between it and the shorter 88, it doesn't seem very likely the gun would have doubled the accuracy.
(source: T.L. Jentz; "The Complete Guide to the Creation & Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force vol. 2 1943-1945" Appendix D)

[IRDCAM]

The limiting factor of course were the optics. The 88mm guns were long ranged in the vertical AA role, but horizontal you had limitations with terrain and optics 1500m was about best hit percentage they could get. Again how much can you see through a paper towel tube, that was the gunners optical field of view.

Even today with modern optics and 120mm guns, the stats only are consistant out to 2000m

[Maschinengewehr]

Very few guns of the era were effectively accurate at 2000m. Most wouldn't even bother engaging at that distance to start with.

[cbnnr]

There are two aspects to gun accuracy, the gunner and the gun. So even if the gun always fired the shot where it was aimed it did not always mean the aim was correct, given the target can be moving and so on and the range of 2k was extreme for the tanks of this era. That being said most tanks of the war where not knocked out by other tanks.

[Hauggy]

That kind of BS complaining is what ruins a lot of games provided devs listen to such "enlightened feedback" from ww2 "experts" such as those that roam the internet and such games.

[Sluggger]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Very few guns of the era were effectively accurate at 2000m. Most wouldn't even bother engaging at that distance to start with.

+1

Tank guns are waaaaay to accurate right now and I hope this is addressed by the Devs at some point.

40% accuracy at 2000m sounds reasonable but when you add in bonuses for veterancy and successive shots the number becomes significantly higher. From what I've seen it's rare for tanks to miss more than once even at max range.

Firing at 2000m we should "hope" for a hit not "expect" a hit. It should be no more than 40% under any circumstances except for AA guns.

Right now the meta is stop and shoot at 2000m, retreat, or die. There should be a reasonable opportunity for tanks to close the distance before firing without it being suicidal. Where players must weigh the odds of engaging at 2000m vs moving closer for a better chance of a hit.

[Kyso4ek]

No. The gun has no special properties that would magically reduce its dispersion beyond the values which can be found in similar guns of other tanks.

Whatever they did to a t34 76 gun is another story though. The gun which is absolutely similar to that found on a sherman is for some reason 30% instead of 40%.

[IRDCAM]

Again optics and TC is gunner in 2 man turret on T-34/76. Harder to find targets when buttoned up. Then transition to gunsight. The F-34 76.2mm gun was a good gun for the time, just optics and 2 man turret led to issues with accuracy and ROF.

[nord2hammer]

The Scherenfernrohr (S.F 14z Gi H/6400) rangefinder was used for those frowned upon long range shots.

http://www.panzerbasics.com/images/scherenfernrohr.jpg

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by nord2hammer:

The Scherenfernrohr (S.F 14z Gi H/6400) rangefinder was used for those frowned upon long range shots.

http://www.panzerbasics.com/images/scherenfernrohr.jpg

Good sights don't magically alter the ballistic properties of a gun.

[Bakuda]

End of the day it comes down to the Mk I Eye Ball and an optic sight built by questionable craftsman (optical Range markings), in a high stress situation, guessing how far the target is and firing. No wonder field conditions had such low hit ratios. They likely never tested the gun in question out beyond 1500m as that was just too dam far to shoot and get an good chance of a hit, the target was too small at that range, would be tossing rounds away.

[MADMAN]

Originally posted by Sluggger:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Very few guns of the era were effectively accurate at 2000m. Most wouldn't even bother engaging at that distance to start with.

+1

Tank guns are waaaaay to accurate right now and I hope this is addressed by the Devs at some point.

40% accuracy at 2000m sounds reasonable but when you add in bonuses for veterancy and successive shots the number becomes significantly higher. From what I've seen it's rare for tanks to miss more than once even at max range.

Firing at 2000m we should "hope" for a hit not "expect" a hit. It should be no more than 40% under any circumstances except for AA guns.

Right now the meta is stop and shoot at 2000m, retreat, or die. There should be a reasonable opportunity for tanks to close the distance before firing without it being suicidal. Where players must weigh the odds of engaging at 2000m vs moving closer for a better chance of a hit.

+1

[SalzStange]

Originally posted by Sluggger:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Very few guns of the era were effectively accurate at 2000m. Most wouldn't even bother engaging at that distance to start with.

+1

Tank guns are waaaaay to accurate right now and I hope this is addressed by the Devs at some point.

40% accuracy at 2000m sounds reasonable but when you add in bonuses for veterancy and successive shots the number becomes significantly higher. From what I've seen it's rare for tanks to miss more than once even at max range.

Firing at 2000m we should "hope" for a hit not "expect" a hit. It should be no more than 40% under any circumstances except for AA guns.

Right now the meta is stop and shoot at 2000m, retreat, or die. There should be a reasonable opportunity for tanks to close the distance before firing without it being suicidal. Where players must weigh the odds of engaging at 2000m vs moving closer for a better chance of a hit.

I guess this won't happen since then russia would be a pain
They changed the range / accuracy stats for a reason. Otherwise it would be simply not fun to play (as russia).

Same with the airwings.

Would it be fun if 1 german airwing reaches historically stats from 10:1 -15:1? no it won't be that fun. Would it be fun if germans had not much aircrafts cause lack of oil? no. Or if german tanks would have troubles cause they run out of maintance material or their tech would be bad for the russian territory? Guess not.

I also liked the old model. But now= it's not more germany vs allies. It's hightech tanks vs solid tanks without any tech (i am mostly talking about the basis of the russian tanks and not is2 44...) all together i think it's more fun if a panther or tiger does not mass slaughter russian tanks.. all together they would need to decreasse russian tank cost or increase the german one and do everything more realistic. It would destroy the fun

I have tought long about it. As I said i liked the old accuracy and range system. I liked that a german tank was actually a german tank in sd1... if in sd1 a tiger or jumbo showed up it was like a cold shower for the other side. And no matter which tanks. They were actually some kind of power on the map.

[MADMAN]

Originally posted by SalzStange:

Would it be fun if 1 german airwing reaches historically stats from 10:1 -15:1? no it won't be that fun. Would it be fun if germans had not much aircrafts cause lack of oil? no. Or if german tanks would have troubles cause they run out of maintance material or their tech would be bad for the russian territory? Guess not.

Sounds funny - to give german tanks random maintenance criticals like "run out of fuel" or "engine broken" ;D

but I not interested to see this kind of "realism" in the gameplay too - not in accuracy or maintenance details


greetings